Homebrew PCBs

Markus,

Where do you get your dry film laminate.

There is only one PCB shop in my city and
they are not interested in supplying me
any consumables.

Think-n-Tink sell some

http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db|photopolymers.dat|
Photoresist

But at $85USD for a 50 foot roll that is
hardly in the "close to no cost" catergory
you mentioned when talking about the
stencils.

Andrew,

I payed about $220 for 300 meters, that's roughly 984 foot. 300 meters 
will last you very very long. I acutally sold 250 meters of it and kept 
the remainder. That way I had my 50 meters for about $36.... No if you 
compare this to the very small piece I use for the formentioned stencil 
that's truly almost close to nothing right?

I'm also a user of a german (I live in Switzerland) PCB/Electronics 
forum, and there we usually organise collective orders then makes the 
costs much more reasonable for the individual. You will find that with 
professional bigger suppliers you have to order the rolls of it in pairs 
cause the professional laminators use one roll for top and one for the 
bottom layers of a PCB. They are packaged this way from the 
manufacturers, so it's obvious that a supplier usually is not willing to 
break a package in a part he eventually can't sell anymore therafter.

I use Ordyl Alpha 950 from an italian importer which also operates 
worldwide. Their US office is here:


      Lakeville Office:

*ITC Intercircuit N.A.*
21625 Grenada Avenue
Lakeville, Minnesota 55044
Phone: 952-469-2310
Fax: 952-469-2007

That's hence at least one US based source I can name for you, but there 
are definately others. Might be that the board shop near you since they 
are not supplying material to you at least is willing to let you know 
who their supplier is should you want to have an alternative. I'm not 
fluent enough in english to know for what to search the internet or 
yellow pages etc. in english.

BUT, why not make a poll here among the US based users of this group who 
would have interest in buying some reasonable amount of it from you (or 
someone else) who buys a pair of rolls? I'm sure either ITC or one of 
their sub supliers will be happy to sell it to you, and I'm also sure 
many users here may want to try it out. I'm happy to assist first time 
users here with questions etc.

The rolls have a limitted shelf live. However, that's mostly only 
important for industrial use. In other words, ask whatever supplier you 
find for end of live rolls. Usually you get them (if available) with a 
steep discount. The ONLY "problem" with these kind of rolls is that the 
material starts to stick together on the outer areas of say a 30 cm 
roll. That's because it slowly reacts with the oxygen in a fashion where 
the resist material starts to kind of glue a little. Only about 2 - 7mm 
are affected, the inner area (alas the huge part of it) will remain 
unafected for many years. You should store the material in a dark dry 
envireonement, and make sure no pressure is applied to it. If you roll 
it, make sure to construct some holder so as the material is "held" by 
the roll itself and not that the roll is laying on a shelf or else the 
material will react at the point of pressure. Let me clearly state that 
the photosensitivity of the material is NOT affected over time if it's 
stored dry, DARK and at reasonable temperatures.

For homebrew use, the above shelf time limitt is of absolutely no 
concern cause you likely will cut off individual pieces which you then 
hand laminate. I for example cut 16.5cm long parts of the roll, which I 
then cut down into two 10.5cm parts dumping the excess. This gives 2.5mm 
of overshot for a so called euro card, and as you can see there will 
always be a remainder (since the roll is 30cm wide). In other words, if 
the borders stick a little (only really just a little) that does not 
matter cause you cut this part away anyways. For industrial use this is 
of course catastropic and as such this is the reason why you should get 
a significant discount ordering THIS kind of rolls. Of course, you can 
also buy "official" material at it's full (se above for an aproximation) 
price.

I could order material here and ship it, but I doubt that this would be 
so very cost effective as oposed to one of you US based guys doing it. 
Should however nobody be found doing this for interested parties here 
(ok, let's wait for the result of a poll) I'm definately willing to help 
you guys out.

Markus

Andrew schrieb:

>
> Markus,
>
> Where do you get your dry film laminate.
>
> There is only one PCB shop in my city and
> they are not interested in supplying me
> any consumables.
>
> Think-n-Tink sell some
>
> http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db 
> <http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db>|photopolymers.dat|
> Photoresist
>
> But at $85USD for a 50 foot roll that is
> hardly in the "close to no cost" catergory
> you mentioned when talking about the
> stencils.
>
>

Markus,

could you please give the Italian distributor info? I am from Slovenia 
and it's very interesting. Do you still have some dry film to sell?

Thanks!
Marko

Markus Zingg pravi:

>
> Andrew,
>
> I payed about $220 for 300 meters, that's roughly 984 foot. 300 meters
> will last you very very long. I acutally sold 250 meters of it and kept
> the remainder. That way I had my 50 meters for about $36.... No if you
> compare this to the very small piece I use for the formentioned stencil
> that's truly almost close to nothing right?
>
> I'm also a user of a german (I live in Switzerland) PCB/Electronics
> forum, and there we usually organise collective orders then makes the
> costs much more reasonable for the individual. You will find that with
> professional bigger suppliers you have to order the rolls of it in pairs
> cause the professional laminators use one roll for top and one for the
> bottom layers of a PCB. They are packaged this way from the
> manufacturers, so it's obvious that a supplier usually is not willing to
> break a package in a part he eventually can't sell anymore therafter.
>
> I use Ordyl Alpha 950 from an italian importer which also operates
> worldwide. Their US office is here:
>
> Lakeville Office:
>
> *ITC Intercircuit N.A.*
> 21625 Grenada Avenue
> Lakeville, Minnesota 55044
> Phone: 952-469-2310
> Fax: 952-469-2007
>
> That's hence at least one US based source I can name for you, but there
> are definately others. Might be that the board shop near you since they
> are not supplying material to you at least is willing to let you know
> who their supplier is should you want to have an alternative. I'm not
> fluent enough in english to know for what to search the internet or
> yellow pages etc. in english.
>
> BUT, why not make a poll here among the US based users of this group who
> would have interest in buying some reasonable amount of it from you (or
> someone else) who buys a pair of rolls? I'm sure either ITC or one of
> their sub supliers will be happy to sell it to you, and I'm also sure
> many users here may want to try it out. I'm happy to assist first time
> users here with questions etc.
>
> The rolls have a limitted shelf live. However, that's mostly only
> important for industrial use. In other words, ask whatever supplier you
> find for end of live rolls. Usually you get them (if available) with a
> steep discount. The ONLY "problem" with these kind of rolls is that the
> material starts to stick together on the outer areas of say a 30 cm
> roll. That's because it slowly reacts with the oxygen in a fashion where
> the resist material starts to kind of glue a little. Only about 2 - 7mm
> are affected, the inner area (alas the huge part of it) will remain
> unafected for many years. You should store the material in a dark dry
> envireonement, and make sure no pressure is applied to it. If you roll
> it, make sure to construct some holder so as the material is "held" by
> the roll itself and not that the roll is laying on a shelf or else the
> material will react at the point of pressure. Let me clearly state that
> the photosensitivity of the material is NOT affected over time if it's
> stored dry, DARK and at reasonable temperatures.
>
> For homebrew use, the above shelf time limitt is of absolutely no
> concern cause you likely will cut off individual pieces which you then
> hand laminate. I for example cut 16.5cm long parts of the roll, which I
> then cut down into two 10.5cm parts dumping the excess. This gives 2.5mm
> of overshot for a so called euro card, and as you can see there will
> always be a remainder (since the roll is 30cm wide). In other words, if
> the borders stick a little (only really just a little) that does not
> matter cause you cut this part away anyways. For industrial use this is
> of course catastropic and as such this is the reason why you should get
> a significant discount ordering THIS kind of rolls. Of course, you can
> also buy "official" material at it's full (se above for an aproximation)
> price.
>
> I could order material here and ship it, but I doubt that this would be
> so very cost effective as oposed to one of you US based guys doing it.
> Should however nobody be found doing this for interested parties here
> (ok, let's wait for the result of a poll) I'm definately willing to help
> you guys out.
>
> Markus
>
> Andrew schrieb:
> >
> > Markus,
> >
> > Where do you get your dry film laminate.
> >
> > There is only one PCB shop in my city and
> > they are not interested in supplying me
> > any consumables.
> >
> > Think-n-Tink sell some
> >
> > http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db 
> <http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db>
> > <http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db 
> <http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db>>|photopolymers.dat|
> > Photoresist
> >
> > But at $85USD for a 50 foot roll that is
> > hardly in the "close to no cost" catergory
> > you mentioned when talking about the
> > stencils.
> >
> >
>
> 
>
> __________ NOD32 2802 (20080117) Informacija __________
>
> To sporo\ufffdilo je preveril protivirusni sistem NOD32.
> http://www.nod32.com

Marko,

I used Google :-) to locate them....

Here it is:

http://www.elgaeurope.it

No, I have given away what I could. If I sell more, I'm running out of 
it too quickly and have to reorder which somehow does not make sense for 
me at the very moment. I ordered it from their swiss distributor 
anyways. I figure if you contact them they will point you towards a 
local distributor or either sell it directly to you.

Markus

Marko Pavlin schrieb:

>
> Markus,
>
> could you please give the Italian distributor info? I am from Slovenia
> and it's very interesting. Do you still have some dry film to sell?
>
> Thanks!
> Marko
>

> Markus Zingg wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> I had my 50 meters for about $36....

72 cents per meter is much better than
$5.60 a meter the 50 foot roll works
out.

> compare this to the very small piece
> I use for the formentioned stencil 
> that's truly almost close to nothing
> right?

Pretty close to nothing :D

> <SNIP>
> You will find that with professional
> bigger suppliers you have to order
> the rolls of it in pairs cause the
> professional laminators use one roll
> for top and one for the bottom layers
> of a PCB. They are packaged this way
> from the manufacturers, so it's
> obvious that a supplier usually is
> not willing to break a package in a
> part he eventually can't sell anymore 
> therafter.

OK - I will Go back to my local place
and see if they would not mind selling
me a pair of rolls.  I dont mind
shelling out $600 for the stuff as it
would last forever.  But I would think
15 meters (50') might not last me too
long.

I might have to pretend I am etching
brass parts for model trains as to
not scare them into thinking I am
going to set up shop making PCBs.

> <SNIP>
>
> That's hence at least one US based
> source I can name for you, but there 
> are definately others.

Unfortunatly I am in OZ.  I would
imagine it would be easier in the US
as there would be more PCB fabs to try
and even if your local one wasn't
cooperative it is only a short drive
to the next states capital city :D

> <SNIP>
> I could order material here and
> ship it, but I doubt that this would
> be so very cost effective as oposed
> to one of you US based guys doing it. 
> Should however nobody be found doing
> this for interested parties here 
> (ok, let's wait for the result of a
> poll) I'm definately willing to help 
> you guys out.


Now that I have a brand name and
some suppliers from you I will see how
I go in OZ.

Thanks for the offer to pick-n-ship it
if I can't get any luck here I may
take you up on that.

BTW - you said you re-sold a few 100
meters.  How was the re-packaging
acheived.  Did you re-spool it to
another roll or did you just cut it
off in sheets?

Andrew wrote:
> 
> 
> Markus,
> 
> Where do you get your dry film laminate.
> 
> There is only one PCB shop in my city and
> they are not interested in supplying me
> any consumables.
> 
> Think-n-Tink sell some
> 
> http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db 
> <http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db>|photopolymers.dat|
> Photoresist
> 
> But at $85USD for a 50 foot roll that is
> hardly in the "close to no cost" catergory
> you mentioned when talking about the
> stencils.

I number of years ago I was lucky enough to get 30 meters remaining on 
a 440mm width roll. The guy at a place called Printed Electronics in 
Melbourne (I assume your located in Australia) used to run a small PCB 
shop. I asked the owner for some film. He said come back in a week when 
he will changeover the roll in his laminator machine, and leave some on 
the roll. I'm not sure if he is still in business.

Printed Electronics
12a Aristoc Rd , Glen Waverley, VIC 3150
p: (03) 9545 3722


Of course , you'll have no problem buying a pair of 500ft length rolls 
for ~AUD$600 IIRC :)

If you can provide the tooling and instructions for applying the film 
then I'm sure there would be a market for it, and you could make small 
profit.

The problem is once its loaded into the laminator machines they can't 
just roll x meters on a plastic tube for you. The protective backing 
film is removed in the machine. You have to ask them to leave a bit 
remaining on the roll.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:51 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Dry Film Laminiate Suppliers


> Markus,
> 
> Where do you get your dry film laminate.
> 
> There is only one PCB shop in my city and
> they are not interested in supplying me
> any consumables.
> 
> Think-n-Tink sell some
> 
> http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db|photopolymers.dat|
> Photoresist
> 
> But at $85USD for a 50 foot roll that is
> hardly in the "close to no cost" catergory
> you mentioned when talking about the
> stencils.

It'll last for some years, though.

Leon