Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:05 UTC

Thread

buying LED's for a exposure box

buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Adam Seychell

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone knows where is a good place to buy >= 100 UV 
LED's for home made PCB exposure box ? There are two sellers on eBay 
that I have found: (all prices below include delivery)

http://stores.ebay.com/Winsome-House-Store
They are advertising 100 x 3000mcd(typ.) 20 degree UV LEDs for US$11. 
This sounds almost too cheap.

http://stores.ebay.com/Light-of-Victory-Led-Store-lvehk
They have 100 x UV LEDs 20 degree 7000mcd(typ.) for US$32.
or 100 x UV LEDs 20 degree 3000mcd(typ.) for US$15.

It would seem I could use half as many of I buy the 7000mcd compared to 
3000mcd. I'm guessing a 20mm grid spacing would be a good layout for the 
LEDs.

regards,

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Markus Zingg

Adam,

I do have a 20mm grid spacing, and I'm so far satisfied. Even though it 
never formed a problem of any kind, one can SEE the grid on the 
resulting exposed laminate. It's seen like kind of darker and lighter 
circular shaped areas on the exposed resist. Again, developping the 
result always worked excellent with no irritations in the result whatsoever.

At the very surprisingly low prices of these LEDs, I would consider 
using an even more narrow grid. My box (kingbright leds, with what I 
understand only 160mcd typical) result in a one minute exposure time. 
So, with the 7000mcd ones, you might be not fast enough in flashing them 
on and off for the exposure :-) ....

Let us know what the outcome of this will be. Me thinks that the first 
seller in your list is the more interesting one due to the fact that 
those LEDs seem to have a more narrow angle and compared to what I have 
(160 vs 3000) those LEDs still seem to be superior. On the other hand I 
heard from a guy who bought UV leds over e-bay that they were not 
useable at all. This sounds odd to me though if the specs given on the 
sellers pages reflect the truth. Again, I will be interested to hear 
about your experience, and with $11 you risk not that much. I probably 
would try to expose a sqare inch of resist using one LED "on the fly" 
(make sure you don't look into the UV but who am I to tell you this) 
before I would spend the time to build a complete exposure unit to make 
sure they work.

Markus

Adam Seychell schrieb:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm wondering if anyone knows where is a good place to buy >= 100 UV
> LED's for home made PCB exposure box ? There are two sellers on eBay
> that I have found: (all prices below include delivery)
>
> http://stores.ebay.com/Winsome-House-Store 
> <http://stores.ebay.com/Winsome-House-Store>
> They are advertising 100 x 3000mcd(typ.) 20 degree UV LEDs for US$11.
> This sounds almost too cheap.
>
> http://stores.ebay.com/Light-of-Victory-Led-Store-lvehk 
> <http://stores.ebay.com/Light-of-Victory-Led-Store-lvehk>
> They have 100 x UV LEDs 20 degree 7000mcd(typ.) for US$32.
> or 100 x UV LEDs 20 degree 3000mcd(typ.) for US$15.
>
> It would seem I could use half as many of I buy the 7000mcd compared to
> 3000mcd. I'm guessing a 20mm grid spacing would be a good layout for the
> LEDs.
>
> regards,
>
> Adam
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Ross McKenzie

Adam Seychell wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm wondering if anyone knows where is a good place to buy >= 100 UV
> LED's for home made PCB exposure box ? There are two sellers on eBay
> that I have found: (all prices below include delivery)
>
> http://stores.ebay.com/Winsome-House-Store 
> <http://stores.ebay.com/Winsome-House-Store>
> They are advertising 100 x 3000mcd(typ.) 20 degree UV LEDs for US$11.
> This sounds almost too cheap.
>
> http://stores.ebay.com/Light-of-Victory-Led-Store-lvehk 
> <http://stores.ebay.com/Light-of-Victory-Led-Store-lvehk>
> They have 100 x UV LEDs 20 degree 7000mcd(typ.) for US$32.
> or 100 x UV LEDs 20 degree 3000mcd(typ.) for US$15.
>
> It would seem I could use half as many of I buy the 7000mcd compared to
> 3000mcd. I'm guessing a 20mm grid spacing would be a good layout for the
> LEDs.
>
> regards,
>
> Adam
>
>  


Hi Adam,

Twelve months ago I bought 50 UV leds from an ebay seller in Homg Kong 
for US$1.99 plusd US$11 postage. One was dead on arrival but the others 
were perfect. My UV light box with 7 strings each of 7 leds in series 
spaced at 20 mm works perfectly for me. But you do need a diffuser to 
get an even light (no hot spots). Believe it or not, I used two sheets 
of baking paper. Lovely even glow. Ten minute exposure times at 60 mm 
above the leds. I mount my sensitied board and the photoartwork inside a 
slide in photoframe with a single sheet of glass in front. Very tight 
package. No undercutting.

I just checked for the seller "jeledhk", but he is "not 
found"...otherwise I would recommend him.

Best of luck.

Regards,

Ross

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by zip1zip1zip1

I to have been looking at using LED's for an exposure unit.  Since
most photo resist for PCB board are in the range of 350 - 420 nm.  I
was looking at Led's that had a wider spread in that range or in the
middle of that range might be better. Of course not having built it
yet, I can't say if that is true or not. 

BestHongKong
http://stores.ebay.com/BestHongKong_W0QQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247

List three different LED's
x561 390-395nm   100/ USD $8.75 ship $8.95
x562 395-400nm   100/ USD $7.75 ship $8.95
x563 400-410nm   100/ USD $9.95 ship $8.95

I was looking at the 390-395nm ones 

Or I was also looking at
http://alan-parekh.vstore.ca/product_info.php/cPath/4_7/products_id/28
which have a range of 380 - 400 NM.

Tom

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by pork_u_pine2000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "zip1zip1zip1" <tom@...> wrote:
>
>...
> 
> BestHongKong
> http://stores.ebay.com/BestHongKong_W0QQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247
> 
> List three different LED's
> x561 390-395nm   100/ USD $8.75 ship $8.95
> x562 395-400nm   100/ USD $7.75 ship $8.95
> x563 400-410nm   100/ USD $9.95 ship $8.95
>
> 
> Tom
>
I bought about 100 of each of these grades from BestHongKong and they
seem entirely satisfactory.  I was looking at the absorption maxima
for organic materials (fish-glue gelatin and some of the
polysaccharide gums) and found that the 390-395 range looked best, but
all seem to work.  I ended up buying some UV strips with 3 LEDS
mounted on an aluminum carrier that are set up for 12v.  They seem to
produce more output than I would guess.  I have more problem with
overexposure than with underexposure.

I mounted the strips on a 1 foot chunk of heavy aluminum heat sink
(because that is what I had handy), wired about 9 of the 3 LED strips
in parallel.  I hooked the whole works to a gel cell battery (too lazy
to build an adequate power supply) and an old darkroom timer.  I put
the leds in an old, gutted HP scanjet which makes a great contact printer.

Anyway, BestHongCong has been a good source for LEDS.  I just wish
that they had more chip-type LEDs and some shorter wavelengths (365 -
385 would be helpful).  And good, cheap, stable single mode UV Laser
diodes.  I want to try direct-draw on photosensitive material with an
inkjet mechanism with the jet heads replaced with a laser diode.

-- Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Adam Seychell

Ross McKenzie wrote:
> Twelve months ago I bought 50 UV leds from an ebay seller in Homg Kong
> for US$1.99 plusd US$11 postage. One was dead on arrival but the others
> were perfect. My UV light box with 7 strings each of 7 leds in series
> spaced at 20 mm works perfectly for me. But you do need a diffuser to
> get an even light (no hot spots). Believe it or not, I used two sheets
> of baking paper. Lovely even glow. Ten minute exposure times at 60 mm
> above the leds. I mount my sensitied board and the photoartwork inside a
> slide in photoframe with a single sheet of glass in front. Very tight
> package. No undercutting.
> 

Thanks Ross. It looks like ebay is the best to get LEDs for this 
project. Diffusers only undermine light undercut. When I'm pushing the 
limits out of what my inkjet printer can produce, I need minimum 
undercut. I've tried banks of fluorescent tubes in the past with dismal 
results. I'm using large HID mercury lamp for the time being.

I had the idea of mounting the LEDs in an array of 5mm diameter holes 
drilled through a 18mm (3/4") thick MDF particle board. This will 
guarantee a maximum +-8 degree from each LED. As Markus Zingg, suggested 
I'd need to experiment a bit until I find optimum layout.

I know that all LEDs aren't made equal. From experimenting with normal 
colour LEDs I notice some manufactures have fairly poor uniformity or 
patterns of rings when shined on a white surface.

Adam Seychell

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Stefan Trethan

Can a digital video camera see UV LEDs?
I know it can see IR, but i dunno about UV. It may be useful to judge
differences and illumination pattern if it can.

If it can't maybe one can build a meter with a suitable receiver to
select LEDs, or maybe it is as simple as putting a sensitized board
right up against the array and making a borderline short exposure to
weed out any extra strong or extra weak LEDs.

I am glad i do not need photoprocess for the boards i want to make.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:

> I know that all LEDs aren't made equal. From experimenting with normal
> colour LEDs I notice some manufactures have fairly poor uniformity or
> patterns of rings when shined on a white surface.
>
> Adam Seychell
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Adam Seychell

Markus Zingg wrote:
> 
> 
> Adam,
> 
> I do have a 20mm grid spacing, and I'm so far satisfied. Even though it
> never formed a problem of any kind, one can SEE the grid on the
> resulting exposed laminate. It's seen like kind of darker and lighter
> circular shaped areas on the exposed resist. Again, developping the
> result always worked excellent with no irritations in the result whatsoever.

That's good to hear it works despite the visible pattern. What is your 
space between the LED and PCB ? I guess the larger the distance the 
greater the light overlap of adjacent LED's and possibly better uniformity.

> At the very surprisingly low prices of these LEDs, I would consider
> using an even more narrow grid. My box (kingbright leds, with what I
> understand only 160mcd typical) result in a one minute exposure time.

The BestHongKong ebay seller Tom pointed out had the better specs 
(tighter spectrum tolerance, polar plot). Interestingly , some LEDs are 
rated in mcd while others rated in mW. BestHongKong 5mm UV LED's are all 
11mW 20 degree. I think I'll get these. But might also get $11 ones from 
Winsome House Store just for fun.

 >.... I would spend the time to build a complete exposure unit to make
> sure they work.

For sure. Some preliminary testing will soon give me estimate of 
exposure times vs grid spacing and test non-uniformity.

I'll be sure to let others know how it goes.

Adam Seychell

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-14 by Adam Seychell

pork_u_pine2000 wrote:
> 
> I bought about 100 of each of these grades from BestHongKong and they
> seem entirely satisfactory. I was looking at the absorption maxima
> for organic materials (fish-glue gelatin and some of the
> polysaccharide gums) and found that the 390-395 range looked best, but
> all seem to work. I ended up buying some UV strips with 3 LEDS
> mounted on an aluminum carrier that are set up for 12v. They seem to
> produce more output than I would guess. I have more problem with
> overexposure than with underexposure.

BestHongCong looks like the best so far. Their LED's are rated at 11mW 
and don't know what that translates to in mcd. Anyway the specs are 
better than the other two ebay sellers (which I think are identical 
parts from the same factory). I think around 360nm is optimum for 
photoresists as they are normally designed for exposure with the 365nm 
peak from mercury lamps. The 390-395nm cost only an extra dollar or two 
so I'll get those. What did you mean by "390-395 range looked best" ? 
did it have a better light pattern ?

Adam

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by wimmie262000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Can a digital video camera see UV LEDs?
> I know it can see IR, but i dunno about UV. It may be useful to judge
> differences and illumination pattern if it can.
> 
I guess it can. Look here:
http://hackedgadgets.com/2006/10/31/uv-led-pcb-exposure-system/

There is a photo with 5 LEDs that are giving less output. They were
exchanged due to the photo "exposing" them.

Joop

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by javaguy11111

I went ahead and placed an order for some as well. 

I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting resistors is
sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better way to
go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you want to
match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine evenly.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
wrote:
>
> Markus Zingg wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Adam,
> > 
> > I do have a 20mm grid spacing, and I'm so far satisfied. Even
though it
> > never formed a problem of any kind, one can SEE the grid on the
> > resulting exposed laminate. It's seen like kind of darker and lighter
> > circular shaped areas on the exposed resist. Again, developping the
> > result always worked excellent with no irritations in the result
whatsoever.
> 
> That's good to hear it works despite the visible pattern. What is your 
> space between the LED and PCB ? I guess the larger the distance the 
> greater the light overlap of adjacent LED's and possibly better
uniformity.
> 
> > At the very surprisingly low prices of these LEDs, I would consider
> > using an even more narrow grid. My box (kingbright leds, with what I
> > understand only 160mcd typical) result in a one minute exposure time.
> 
> The BestHongKong ebay seller Tom pointed out had the better specs 
> (tighter spectrum tolerance, polar plot). Interestingly , some LEDs are 
> rated in mcd while others rated in mW. BestHongKong 5mm UV LED's are
all 
> 11mW 20 degree. I think I'll get these. But might also get $11 ones
from 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Winsome House Store just for fun.
> 
>  >.... I would spend the time to build a complete exposure unit to make
> > sure they work.
> 
> For sure. Some preliminary testing will soon give me estimate of 
> exposure times vs grid spacing and test non-uniformity.
> 
> I'll be sure to let others know how it goes.
> 
> Adam Seychell
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by James Bishop

This gave me an idea.. I wonder if it would be possible to replace the
laser diode in a laser printer with a uv one, and then run a
sensitised board through in place of the drum..

What do you guys think? Am i crazy?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 2/15/08, pork_u_pine2000 <wittend@...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "zip1zip1zip1" <tom@...> wrote:
> >
> >...
> >
> > BestHongKong
> > http://stores.ebay.com/BestHongKong_W0QQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247
> >
> > List three different LED's
> > x561 390-395nm 100/ USD $8.75 ship $8.95
> > x562 395-400nm 100/ USD $7.75 ship $8.95
> > x563 400-410nm 100/ USD $9.95 ship $8.95
> >
> >
> > Tom
> >
> I bought about 100 of each of these grades from BestHongKong and they
> seem entirely satisfactory. I was looking at the absorption maxima
> for organic materials (fish-glue gelatin and some of the
> polysaccharide gums) and found that the 390-395 range looked best, but
> all seem to work. I ended up buying some UV strips with 3 LEDS
> mounted on an aluminum carrier that are set up for 12v. They seem to
> produce more output than I would guess. I have more problem with
> overexposure than with underexposure.
>
> I mounted the strips on a 1 foot chunk of heavy aluminum heat sink
> (because that is what I had handy), wired about 9 of the 3 LED strips
> in parallel. I hooked the whole works to a gel cell battery (too lazy
> to build an adequate power supply) and an old darkroom timer. I put
> the leds in an old, gutted HP scanjet which makes a great contact printer.
>
> Anyway, BestHongCong has been a good source for LEDS. I just wish
> that they had more chip-type LEDs and some shorter wavelengths (365 -
> 385 would be helpful). And good, cheap, stable single mode UV Laser
> diodes. I want to try direct-draw on photosensitive material with an
> inkjet mechanism with the jet heads replaced with a laser diode.
>
> -- Dave
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Russell Shaw

Adam Seychell wrote:
> Ross McKenzie wrote:
>> Twelve months ago I bought 50 UV leds from an ebay seller in Homg Kong
>> for US$1.99 plusd US$11 postage. One was dead on arrival but the others
>> were perfect. My UV light box with 7 strings each of 7 leds in series
>> spaced at 20 mm works perfectly for me. But you do need a diffuser to
>> get an even light (no hot spots). Believe it or not, I used two sheets
>> of baking paper. Lovely even glow. Ten minute exposure times at 60 mm
>> above the leds. I mount my sensitied board and the photoartwork inside a
>> slide in photoframe with a single sheet of glass in front. Very tight
>> package. No undercutting.
>>
> 
> Thanks Ross. It looks like ebay is the best to get LEDs for this 
> project. Diffusers only undermine light undercut. When I'm pushing the 
> limits out of what my inkjet printer can produce, I need minimum 
> undercut. I've tried banks of fluorescent tubes in the past with dismal 
> results. I'm using large HID mercury lamp for the time being.
> 
> I had the idea of mounting the LEDs in an array of 5mm diameter holes 
> drilled through a 18mm (3/4") thick MDF particle board. This will 
> guarantee a maximum +-8 degree from each LED. As Markus Zingg, suggested 
> I'd need to experiment a bit until I find optimum layout.
> 
> I know that all LEDs aren't made equal. From experimenting with normal 
> colour LEDs I notice some manufactures have fairly poor uniformity or 
> patterns of rings when shined on a white surface.

You could measure the intensity spread by using a photodiode behind
a pinhole in alfoil.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by agscal -AGSCalabrese

Even LEDs from the same batch cannot be trusted to
have the same brightness for the same current.  After
they age, it is even less likely that they will match. If you
want them to stay matched you would have to have some
kind of feedback or periodic re-calibration of each LED.
I think that is probably overkill.

I recommend that you use a current limiting resistor and
put 10 or 20 or more in a string.  This guarantees that every LED
in that string will get the same current.

For example, if you had 20 LEDs and each one had 1.7V
forward voltage drop, you would have a total forward voltage
drop of 34 volts.  If you use a 36 VDC supply you can tweak the  
resistance
to get the current you want.  To get 20ma you would divide 2 volts
by .02 A to get a resistance of 100 ohms.  The 2 volts comes from
subtracting 34V from 36V.

This approach can be modified to match whatever power supply
you have laying around to the LEDs you have.

Gus


On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:19 PM, javaguy11111 wrote:

> I went ahead and placed an order for some as well.
>
> I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting resistors is
> sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better way to
> go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you want to
> match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine evenly.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Myc Holmes

All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the output is
circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and set up the
LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.

Myc

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 3:48 AM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...>
wrote:

>   Even LEDs from the same batch cannot be trusted to
> have the same brightness for the same current. After
> they age, it is even less likely that they will match. If you
> want them to stay matched you would have to have some
> kind of feedback or periodic re-calibration of each LED.
> I think that is probably overkill.
>
> I recommend that you use a current limiting resistor and
> put 10 or 20 or more in a string. This guarantees that every LED
> in that string will get the same current.
>
> For example, if you had 20 LEDs and each one had 1.7V
> forward voltage drop, you would have a total forward voltage
> drop of 34 volts. If you use a 36 VDC supply you can tweak the
> resistance
> to get the current you want. To get 20ma you would divide 2 volts
> by .02 A to get a resistance of 100 ohms. The 2 volts comes from
> subtracting 34V from 36V.
>
> This approach can be modified to match whatever power supply
> you have laying around to the LEDs you have.
>
> Gus
>
> On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:19 PM, javaguy11111 wrote:
>
> > I went ahead and placed an order for some as well.
> >
> > I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting resistors is
> > sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better way to
> > go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you want to
> > match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine evenly.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Markus Zingg

I think it just does not matter that much. As noted earlier, I can SEE a 
difference on the exposed laminate, but this does not influence the 
result after etching. It seems to me that the resist ist quite forgiving 
here, well, at least with the Ordyl Alpha 900 I'm using this seesm to be 
the case.

The only reason why I would want to change something if at all is to 
have a bigger area (more leds I'm currently limitte to 160x100 cm sized 
boards) and a higher density (currently using a 20cm grid) to shorten 
the exposure time. However, the latter really is not important as I'm 
exposing only one minute with the current setup.

Markus

Myc Holmes schrieb:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the output is
> circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and set up the
> LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.
>
> Myc
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Markus Zingg

Hi Adam,

The space is 6 cm.

HTH

Markus
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> That's good to hear it works despite the visible pattern. What is your
> space between the LED and PCB ? I guess the larger the distance the
> greater the light overlap of adjacent LED's and possibly better 
> uniformity.
>

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:

> You could measure the intensity spread by using a photodiode behind
> a pinhole in alfoil.

I have a quicker, cheaper (maybe better?) idea: just put a sheet of
bright white paper in place of the PCB. They get paper white by
putting "brighteners" in it, which is just fluorescent colorants that
glow in visible under UV.

I have found it easier to see differences if the paper is not white,
though. I have a pack of that green fluorescent paper stock I use to
make my business cards, you can see the pattern fairly clearly.

Steve Greenfield

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Bishop" <bishopaj@...> wrote:
>
> This gave me an idea.. I wonder if it would be possible to replace the
> laser diode in a laser printer with a uv one, and then run a
> sensitised board through in place of the drum..
> 
> What do you guys think? Am i crazy?
> 

You should start your own thread for this.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "James Bishop" <bishopaj@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box


> This gave me an idea.. I wonder if it would be possible to replace the
> laser diode in a laser printer with a uv one, and then run a
> sensitised board through in place of the drum..
> 
> What do you guys think? Am i crazy?

Impossible, without re-engineering the machine.

Leon

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by pgdion1

I hate it when people think ... Wow, great idea Myc.

Just offsetting each row by half the grid would probably be a lot more
even.  It may not matter a lot but, it's really easy to do it so why not?

I'm going to try building one of these myself.  Looks like a great
idea and would make the photo process one step easier.


btw - the UV diodes have about a 3.3v drop on them.  That's why 3 per
line on 12v works good.  But 4 would work well off a filtered 12v
transformer and 8 off of a 24v one.  I plan to run rows of 8 to keep
the current demand on the power supply down (and as mentioned, all
diodes in each group of 8 will have the same current ... nice and
easy). 12 rows of 8 would only be a 1/4 amp.

You get about 17v off the 12v when filtered and 34 off the 24. Enough
to regulated to 30v and then a small resistor for the current limit
... something around 150 to 180 ohms for the 20mA and well under 1/10
W.  The regulator might be overkill but helps make for nice clean DC.

Phil



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:
>
> All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the
output is
> circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and set
up the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.
> 
> Myc

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by agscal -AGSCalabrese

Why not make a line of LEDs spaced 7-8 mm apart.
then push the photoresist board underneath the LEDs
at a constant speed ?  If your line is 160 mm long you
can produce exposed boards 160 mm by 1,000,000 mms.

Gus


On Feb 15, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Myc Holmes wrote:

All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the  
output is
circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and set up  
the
LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.

Myc

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 3:48 AM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...>
wrote:

 > Even LEDs from the same batch cannot be trusted to
 > have the same brightness for the same current. After
 > they age, it is even less likely that they will match. If you
 > want them to stay matched you would have to have some
 > kind of feedback or periodic re-calibration of each LED.
 > I think that is probably overkill.
 >
 > I recommend that you use a current limiting resistor and
 > put 10 or 20 or more in a string. This guarantees that every LED
 > in that string will get the same current.
 >
 > For example, if you had 20 LEDs and each one had 1.7V
 > forward voltage drop, you would have a total forward voltage
 > drop of 34 volts. If you use a 36 VDC supply you can tweak the
 > resistance
 > to get the current you want. To get 20ma you would divide 2 volts
 > by .02 A to get a resistance of 100 ohms. The 2 volts comes from
 > subtracting 34V from 36V.
 >
 > This approach can be modified to match whatever power supply
 > you have laying around to the LEDs you have.
 >
 > Gus
 >
 > On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:19 PM, javaguy11111 wrote:
 >
 > > I went ahead and placed an order for some as well.
 > >
 > > I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting resistors is
 > > sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better  
way to
 > > go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you want to
 > > match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine evenly.
 >
 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 >
 >
 >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Stefan Trethan

if you use an old flatbed scanner you'd have all the moving parts for
that (and the board could remain in place, which is always good).

BUT the drawback is obvious, longer exposure time, ~100,000 times
longer for the board you suggest to make ;-)

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 7:52 PM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...> wrote:
> Why not make a line of LEDs spaced 7-8 mm apart.
> then push the photoresist board underneath the LEDs
> at a constant speed ?  If your line is 160 mm long you
> can produce exposed boards 160 mm by 1,000,000 mms.
>
> Gus
>
>
>
> On Feb 15, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Myc Holmes wrote:
>
> All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the
> output is
> circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and set up
> the
> LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.
>
> Myc
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 3:48 AM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...>
> wrote:
>
>  > Even LEDs from the same batch cannot be trusted to
>  > have the same brightness for the same current. After
>  > they age, it is even less likely that they will match. If you
>  > want them to stay matched you would have to have some
>  > kind of feedback or periodic re-calibration of each LED.
>  > I think that is probably overkill.
>  >
>  > I recommend that you use a current limiting resistor and
>  > put 10 or 20 or more in a string. This guarantees that every LED
>  > in that string will get the same current.
>  >
>  > For example, if you had 20 LEDs and each one had 1.7V
>  > forward voltage drop, you would have a total forward voltage
>  > drop of 34 volts. If you use a 36 VDC supply you can tweak the
>  > resistance
>  > to get the current you want. To get 20ma you would divide 2 volts
>  > by .02 A to get a resistance of 100 ohms. The 2 volts comes from
>  > subtracting 34V from 36V.
>  >
>  > This approach can be modified to match whatever power supply
>  > you have laying around to the LEDs you have.
>  >
>  > Gus
>  >
>  > On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:19 PM, javaguy11111 wrote:
>  >
>  > > I went ahead and placed an order for some as well.
>  > >
>  > > I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting resistors is
>  > > sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better
> way to
>  > > go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you want to
>  > > match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine evenly.
>  >
>  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by Myc Holmes

http://hackedgadgets.com/2007/02/24/uv-led-pcb-exposure-scanner/

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

On Feb 15, 2008 2:36 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>   if you use an old flatbed scanner you'd have all the moving parts for
> that (and the board could remain in place, which is always good).
>
> BUT the drawback is obvious, longer exposure time, ~100,000 times
> longer for the board you suggest to make ;-)
>
> ST
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 7:52 PM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...<agscal%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > Why not make a line of LEDs spaced 7-8 mm apart.
> > then push the photoresist board underneath the LEDs
> > at a constant speed ? If your line is 160 mm long you
> > can produce exposed boards 160 mm by 1,000,000 mms.
> >
> > Gus
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 15, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Myc Holmes wrote:
> >
> > All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the
> > output is
> > circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and set up
> > the
> > LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.
> >
> > Myc
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 3:48 AM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...<agscal%40gmail.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Even LEDs from the same batch cannot be trusted to
> > > have the same brightness for the same current. After
> > > they age, it is even less likely that they will match. If you
> > > want them to stay matched you would have to have some
> > > kind of feedback or periodic re-calibration of each LED.
> > > I think that is probably overkill.
> > >
> > > I recommend that you use a current limiting resistor and
> > > put 10 or 20 or more in a string. This guarantees that every LED
> > > in that string will get the same current.
> > >
> > > For example, if you had 20 LEDs and each one had 1.7V
> > > forward voltage drop, you would have a total forward voltage
> > > drop of 34 volts. If you use a 36 VDC supply you can tweak the
> > > resistance
> > > to get the current you want. To get 20ma you would divide 2 volts
> > > by .02 A to get a resistance of 100 ohms. The 2 volts comes from
> > > subtracting 34V from 36V.
> > >
> > > This approach can be modified to match whatever power supply
> > > you have laying around to the LEDs you have.
> > >
> > > Gus
> > >
> > > On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:19 PM, javaguy11111 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I went ahead and placed an order for some as well.
> > > >
> > > > I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting resistors is
> > > > sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better
> > way to
> > > > go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you want to
> > > > match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine evenly.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-15 by agscal -AGSCalabrese

Yes, for a given number of LEDs covering a specified area, there is
no difference in time between scanning and fixed LEDs.
If you buy enough LEDs to expose 100mm by 100mm properly in 60 seconds,
then putting all those LEDs together in a line and scanning will get  
the exposure
done in the same amount of time.  And the exposure should be more  
uniform.
Gus

TISATAAFLP

On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Myc Holmes wrote:

http://hackedgadgets.com/2007/02/24/uv-led-pcb-exposure-scanner/

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

On Feb 15, 2008 2:36 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

 > if you use an old flatbed scanner you'd have all the moving parts for
 > that (and the board could remain in place, which is always good).
 >
 > BUT the drawback is obvious, longer exposure time, ~100,000 times
 > longer for the board you suggest to make ;-)
 >
 > ST
 >
 >
 > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 7:52 PM, agscal -AGSCalabrese  
<agscal@...<agscal%40gmail.com>>
 > wrote:
 > > Why not make a line of LEDs spaced 7-8 mm apart.
 > > then push the photoresist board underneath the LEDs
 > > at a constant speed ? If your line is 160 mm long you
 > > can produce exposed boards 160 mm by 1,000,000 mms.
 > >
 > > Gus
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Myc Holmes wrote:
 > >
 > > All of the designs so fr have used a rectangular grid. Since the
 > > output is
 > > circular in shape, why not take a clue form the honey bees and  
set up
 > > the
 > > LEDS in a hexagonal grid? This should result in more even coverage.
 > >
 > > Myc
 > >
 > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 3:48 AM, agscal -AGSCalabrese  
<agscal@...<agscal%40gmail.com>
 > >
 > > wrote:
 > >
 > > > Even LEDs from the same batch cannot be trusted to
 > > > have the same brightness for the same current. After
 > > > they age, it is even less likely that they will match. If you
 > > > want them to stay matched you would have to have some
 > > > kind of feedback or periodic re-calibration of each LED.
 > > > I think that is probably overkill.
 > > >
 > > > I recommend that you use a current limiting resistor and
 > > > put 10 or 20 or more in a string. This guarantees that every LED
 > > > in that string will get the same current.
 > > >
 > > > For example, if you had 20 LEDs and each one had 1.7V
 > > > forward voltage drop, you would have a total forward voltage
 > > > drop of 34 volts. If you use a 36 VDC supply you can tweak the
 > > > resistance
 > > > to get the current you want. To get 20ma you would divide 2 volts
 > > > by .02 A to get a resistance of 100 ohms. The 2 volts comes from
 > > > subtracting 34V from 36V.
 > > >
 > > > This approach can be modified to match whatever power supply
 > > > you have laying around to the LEDs you have.
 > > >
 > > > Gus
 > > >
 > > > On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:19 PM, javaguy11111 wrote:
 > > >
 > > > > I went ahead and placed an order for some as well.
 > > > >
 > > > > I am wondering if just doing simple current limiting  
resistors is
 > > > > sufficient or if a proper LED driver chip would be the better
 > > way to
 > > > > go. From what I have read, at least for visible LEDs, you  
want to
 > > > > match the current in the LEDs to ensure that they all shine  
evenly.
 > > >
 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > >
 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
 > Photos:
 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
 > > Yahoo! Groups Links
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >

there is such a thing as a free lunch pail ......

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-16 by Stefan Trethan

Yes, if you buy the same number of LEDs.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 15, 2008 10:30 PM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...> wrote:
> Yes, for a given number of LEDs covering a specified area, there is
> no difference in time between scanning and fixed LEDs.
> If you buy enough LEDs to expose 100mm by 100mm properly in 60 seconds,
> then putting all those LEDs together in a line and scanning will get
> the exposure
> done in the same amount of time.  And the exposure should be more
> uniform.
> Gus
>
> TISATAAFLP
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-16 by Myc Holmes

Hi Gus,

"TISATAAFLP"

LOL!

Either you are showing your age or are a Robert Heinlein fan.

Regards,

Mycroft Holmes




On Feb 16, 2008 3:18 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>   Yes, if you buy the same number of LEDs.
>
> On Feb 15, 2008 10:30 PM, agscal -AGSCalabrese <agscal@...<agscal%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > Yes, for a given number of LEDs covering a specified area, there is
> > no difference in time between scanning and fixed LEDs.
> > If you buy enough LEDs to expose 100mm by 100mm properly in 60 seconds,
> > then putting all those LEDs together in a line and scanning will get
> > the exposure
> > done in the same amount of time. And the exposure should be more
> > uniform.
> > Gus
> >
> > TISATAAFLP
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-19 by Chris Horne

Sorry Guys, I was on holiday while this thread was active !

If anyone is worried about the beam pattern, it is easy enough to make
standard 5mm LEDs wider angle..

When assembled, just work the board LEDs down, on a sheet of 600 wet
and dry, in a circular motion..

do this until the tops of the LEDs are flat...

then do the same on a sheet of card, using 'T' cut or other paint
refinishing paste..

it works a treat..  you will get a good 100 degrees or so, problem
solved...

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
wrote:
>
> Markus Zingg wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Adam,
> > 
> > I do have a 20mm grid spacing, and I'm so far satisfied. Even
though it
> > never formed a problem of any kind, one can SEE the grid on the
> > resulting exposed laminate. It's seen like kind of darker and lighter
> > circular shaped areas on the exposed resist. Again, developping the
> > result always worked excellent with no irritations in the result
whatsoever.
> 
> That's good to hear it works despite the visible pattern. What is your 
> space between the LED and PCB ? I guess the larger the distance the 
> greater the light overlap of adjacent LED's and possibly better
uniformity.
> 
> > At the very surprisingly low prices of these LEDs, I would consider
> > using an even more narrow grid. My box (kingbright leds, with what I
> > understand only 160mcd typical) result in a one minute exposure time.
> 
> The BestHongKong ebay seller Tom pointed out had the better specs 
> (tighter spectrum tolerance, polar plot). Interestingly , some LEDs are 
> rated in mcd while others rated in mW. BestHongKong 5mm UV LED's are
all 
> 11mW 20 degree. I think I'll get these. But might also get $11 ones
from 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Winsome House Store just for fun.
> 
>  >.... I would spend the time to build a complete exposure unit to make
> > sure they work.
> 
> For sure. Some preliminary testing will soon give me estimate of 
> exposure times vs grid spacing and test non-uniformity.
> 
> I'll be sure to let others know how it goes.
> 
> Adam Seychell
>

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-20 by Dave McD

Chris and others,
   
  Won't increasing the emission angle of the LEDs increase the undercutting effect and ultimately the resolution achievable when exposing a board using these LEDs?  Since we are talking homebrew boards, how much do we really need to worry about light collumation vs the granularity (resolution) of the artwork?  Is there some sort of rough formula?
   
  dave mc
   

       
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-20 by wimmie262000

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave McD <davemac2@...> wrote:
>
> Chris and others,
>    
>   Won't increasing the emission angle of the LEDs increase the
undercutting effect and ultimately the resolution achievable when
exposing a board using these LEDs?  Since we are talking homebrew
boards, how much do we really need to worry about light collumation vs
the granularity (resolution) of the artwork?  Is there some sort of
rough formula?
>    
>   dave mc

There is a risk of more undercut. But I guess it depends on what kind
of mask you use and the detail required. I use a UV face tanner and
chalk paper printed in my laser printer for the mask. For a board with
small details (SMD stuff) I should not put the paper upside down
during exposure or I have undercut problems. Also I need to make sure
the PCB is pressed really flat to the chalk paper. But doing it right
I have no problems at all.
Some people have a problem with proper blackening of the masks and
claim that using two chalk paper or film layers on top of each other
is the solution. With that method I would imagine that a more
perpendicular lightsource is key. So grinding the LEDs to spread the
light, or putting a piece of chalk paper on top to get the same result
would be asking for trouble.

If you can afford more exposure time, but cannot not afford to invest
in more LEDs, I would suggest to place the LED's further away from the
PCB, rather than diffusing the light source.

Cheers,

Joop

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-21 by Chris Horne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave McD <davemac2@...> wrote:
>
> Chris and others,
>    
>   Won't increasing the emission angle of the LEDs increase the
undercutting effect  <<   SNIP

I guess that is true.. but

I must admit I never had a problem with undercutting, even when using
dual 12" tubes 4" away..  but then I don't do really fine traces..

Nowadays I almost exclusively use toner transfer and find it quicker,
easier, cheaper and more reliable.

The only time I don't use toner transfer is when milling.

I grind LEDs for a completely different application, for which it
works really well.

Chris

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-21 by Markus Zingg

Dave,

I think undercutt becomes a real issue if you apraoch 4mil traces. I 
don't think it's an issue above 10mils provided you take the usual care 
(make sure your film is printed in a way where the ink is on the side of 
the photosensitive surface of the PCB).

A not good enough film quality will also cause trouble, but I would not 
call that "undercut". So, in this context, LEDs have the advanteage to 
let you aproach really fine traces and one obviousely can build a box 
that is physically smaller than a tube based setup.

With the prices given from these e-bay sellers it's IMHO a no brainer 
though.

Markus

Dave McD schrieb:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Chris and others,
>
> Won't increasing the emission angle of the LEDs increase the 
> undercutting effect and ultimately the resolution achievable when 
> exposing a board using these LEDs? Since we are talking homebrew 
> boards, how much do we really need to worry about light collumation vs 
> the granularity (resolution) of the artwork? Is there some sort of 
> rough formula?
>
> dave mc
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Re: buying LED's for a exposure box

2008-02-21 by Chris Horne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:


We are all electronics savvy here, but I guess it doesn't hurt to
point out that off 12 Volts, groups of 3 LEDs in series with the
appropriate current limiting resistor is probably the most economic
way to put them together

Chris

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.