Homebrew PCBs

I'm new to all of this. I've been trying to draw a schematic with the
free DipTrace software and I seem to be having alot of trouble with
fining components from their libraries. Can someone help me again? I
posted awhile back about a 4070 CMOS XOR AND 4027 CMOS Flip Flop. How
can I find them in their Libraries? Wayne

Wayne,

There is a DipTrace e-mail list here on yahoo which is monitored by what 
apears to be one of the developpers of DipTrace also. I'm sure your 
questions will be answered there.

Markus

coronetman1965 schrieb:

>
> I'm new to all of this. I've been trying to draw a schematic with the
> free DipTrace software and I seem to be having alot of trouble with
> fining components from their libraries. Can someone help me again? I
> posted awhile back about a 4070 CMOS XOR AND 4027 CMOS Flip Flop. How
> can I find them in their Libraries? Wayne
>
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] DipTrace


> I'm new to all of this. I've been trying to draw a schematic with the
> free DipTrace software and I seem to be having alot of trouble with
> fining components from their libraries. Can someone help me again? I
> posted awhile back about a 4070 CMOS XOR AND 4027 CMOS Flip Flop. How
> can I find them in their Libraries? Wayne

Why not create your own parts? It can't be all that difficult.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Markus Thanks for your reply. Wayne


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
wrote:
>
> Wayne,
> 
> There is a DipTrace e-mail list here on yahoo which is monitored by
what 

> apears to be one of the developpers of DipTrace also. I'm sure your 
> questions will be answered there.
> 
> Markus
> 
> coronetman1965 schrieb:
> >
> > I'm new to all of this. I've been trying to draw a schematic with the
> > free DipTrace software and I seem to be having alot of trouble with
> > fining components from their libraries. Can someone help me again? I
> > posted awhile back about a 4070 CMOS XOR AND 4027 CMOS Flip Flop. How
> > can I find them in their Libraries? Wayne
> >
> >
>

Leon I don't understand why you would reply like you did. What didn't
you understand about being "NEW" to all of this. If I don't know how
to find it "How would I know how to make it" Wayne



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon" <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:25 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] DipTrace
> 
> 
> > I'm new to all of this. I've been trying to draw a schematic with the
> > free DipTrace software and I seem to be having alot of trouble with
> > fining components from their libraries. Can someone help me again? I
> > posted awhile back about a 4070 CMOS XOR AND 4027 CMOS Flip Flop. How
> > can I find them in their Libraries? Wayne
> 
> Why not create your own parts? It can't be all that difficult.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
> Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
> Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
> leon355@...
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:26 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> Leon I don't understand why you would reply like you did. What didn't
> you understand about being "NEW" to all of this. If I don't know how
> to find it "How would I know how to make it" Wayne

It's something you need to learn if you want to design PCBs. It's very easy 
with the Pulsonix software I use. You could have designed that part in the 
time it took to write that message and wait for a reply.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

I agree, the _FIRST_ thing to learn is to make parts, in my opinion.

ST

On Feb 17, 2008 5:38 PM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:26 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace
>
>
> > Leon I don't understand why you would reply like you did. What didn't
> > you understand about being "NEW" to all of this. If I don't know how
> > to find it "How would I know how to make it" Wayne
>
> It's something you need to learn if you want to design PCBs. It's very easy
> with the Pulsonix software I use. You could have designed that part in the
> time it took to write that message and wait for a reply.
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
> Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
> Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
> leon355@...
>
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

The DipTrace yahoo group.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/diptr/



Ben

Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
       a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
just build one. Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon" <leon355@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:26 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace
> 
> 
> > Leon I don't understand why you would reply like you did. What didn't
> > you understand about being "NEW" to all of this. If I don't know how
> > to find it "How would I know how to make it" Wayne
> 
> It's something you need to learn if you want to design PCBs. It's
very easy 
> with the Pulsonix software I use. You could have designed that part
in the 

> time it took to write that message and wait for a reply.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
> Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
> Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
> leon355@...
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
>       a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> just build one. Wayne

Nor really, you just have to read the documentation.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Leon Thanks for your replies. Wayne


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon" <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace
> 
> 
> > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
> >       a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> > just build one. Wayne
> 
> Nor really, you just have to read the documentation.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
> Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
> Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
> leon355@...
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 5:45 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> Leon Thanks for your replies. Wayne

Glad I could help.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.

You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you want to?

It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a basic
library component, you really need to know.

ST

On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
> Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
>       a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> just build one. Wayne
>

I must have missed the first post about the problems you are having.

Would you repost, and I'll try to help.

I've been using Diptrace for a number of years now, after trying many other
pcb programs.

If you prefer, you can contact me of list.

Mycroft215 (at) gmail.com <Mycroft2152@...>

Yahoo IM: Mycroft2152

Myc


On Feb 17, 2008 12:58 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>   Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
> rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
> pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
>
> You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you want
> to?
>
> It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a basic
> library component, you really need to know.
>
> ST
>
> On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...<wwinters%40pwrtc.com>>
> wrote:
> > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
> > a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> > just build one. Wayne
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OOPs that was Mycroft2152 (at) gmail,com

Myc

On Feb 17, 2008 1:08 PM, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:

> I must have missed the first post about the problems you are having.
>
> Would you repost, and I'll try to help.
>
> I've been using Diptrace for a number of years now, after trying many
> other pcb programs.
>
> If you prefer, you can contact me of list.
>
> Mycroft215 (at) gmail.com <Mycroft2152@...>
>
> Yahoo IM: Mycroft2152
>
> Myc
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2008 12:58 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> >   Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
> > rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
> > pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
> >
> > You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you want
> > to?
> >
> > It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a basic
> > library component, you really need to know.
> >
> > ST
> >
> > On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...<wwinters%40pwrtc.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
> > > a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> > > just build one. Wayne
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
> rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
> pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
> 
> You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you
want to?

> 
> It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a basic
> library component, you really need to know.
> 
> ST
> 
> On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
> > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
> >       a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> > just build one. Wayne
> >
>

There are three reasons to "roll your own" components:

1. Not, all compents are covered in the 50,000.

2. There may be slight differences in the dijensions

3. You want a more 'friendly" pin positions.

Myc

On Feb 17, 2008 2:28 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:

>   I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> >
> > Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
> > rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
> > pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
> >
> > You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you
> want to?
> >
> > It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a basic
> > library component, you really need to know.
> >
> > ST
> >
> > On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
> > > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
> > > a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
> > > just build one. Wayne
> > >
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like I said in my first post I'm new to all of this. Just like "roll
your own" I have know idea what you mean.You act like that everyone
should be able to read all the instructions and not have any
problem.If that was the case in real life we wouldn,t need teachers,
just hand the students a book and they would all get "A". Right. Wayne


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:
>
> There are three reasons to "roll your own" components:
> 
> 1. Not, all compents are covered in the 50,000.
> 
> 2. There may be slight differences in the dijensions
> 
> 3. You want a more 'friendly" pin positions.
> 
> Myc
> 
> On Feb 17, 2008 2:28 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
> 
> >   I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components
when
> > there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Stefan Trethan"
> > <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
> > > rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
> > > pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
> > >
> > > You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you
> > want to?
> > >
> > > It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a
basic
> > > library component, you really need to know.
> > >
> > > ST
> > >
> > > On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@> wrote:
> > > > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was
rebuilding
> > > > a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > > > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why
don't you

> > > > just build one. Wayne
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Creating your own components (rolling your own) can be an advantage. By
creating a different version of a component, with pins in more convenient
locations, a schematic can be cleaner and not as confusing.

Some notes, there are 2 types of libraries in DIPTRACE; Component libraies
for use in the schematic editor and Pattern libraires for use in  pcb
layout.

The pattern libraries are the pcb footprints. the component libraries are
the schematic symbols, along with an "attached" footprint from the pattern
libraiy.The attached patern may be easily changed without creting a new
component.

The easies t way to use Diptrcce is to create the schematic, then allow
Diptrace to vassemble the footprints for the pcb. CRTL B does this. You can
create pcb's manually, but you either need toknow the name of the pattern or
select it from the library list that is open.

If you search for 4070 in the pcb program,you will come up empty, as the
patterns havve names like 14 pin DIp, etc

When you search for 4070 in the Schematic program, make sure the box All
Llibraires is checked and you will find almost a dozen schematic symbols
with 4070 in the name.

Myc

On Feb 17, 2008 2:53 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:

>   Like I said in my first post I'm new to all of this. Just like "roll
> your own" I have know idea what you mean.You act like that everyone
> should be able to read all the instructions and not have any
> problem.If that was the case in real life we wouldn,t need teachers,
> just hand the students a book and they would all get "A". Right. Wayne
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > There are three reasons to "roll your own" components:
> >
> > 1. Not, all compents are covered in the 50,000.
> >
> > 2. There may be slight differences in the dijensions
> >
> > 3. You want a more 'friendly" pin positions.
> >
> > Myc
> >
> > On Feb 17, 2008 2:28 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components
> when
> > > there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "Stefan Trethan"
> > > <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
> > > > rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
> > > > pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
> > > >
> > > > You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you
> > > want to?
> > > >
> > > > It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a
> basic
> > > > library component, you really need to know.
> > > >
> > > > ST
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@> wrote:
> > > > > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was
> rebuilding
> > > > > a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
> > > > > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why
> don't you
> > > > > just build one. Wayne
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:28 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


>I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne

Most professional designers use their own parts because library parts might 
have errors.

Another reason is that different footprints are required for manual vs 
automatic assembly for surface mount parts.

Yet another reason is that library parts might not conform to a company's 
documentation standards.

Leon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "coronetman1965" <wwinters@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> Like I said in my first post I'm new to all of this. Just like "roll
> your own" I have know idea what you mean.You act like that everyone
> should be able to read all the instructions and not have any
> problem.If that was the case in real life we wouldn,t need teachers,
> just hand the students a book and they would all get "A". Right. Wayne

If you are too thick to follow some simple instructions, why don't you take 
up some other hobby?

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Digikey alone has over 1.3 million components in their online catalog,
what are 50,000?
What worth are those parts that exist if they are usually unfit for use?

Making components is a basic function of any PCB package, just like
drawing connections or routing traces.
In my opinion it can not be considered optional or advanced in any way.


ST

On Feb 17, 2008 8:28 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
> I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
>

When using the Toner Transfer method, it is helpful to have oversized pads,
to prevent liftoff while soldering.

I created an entire library of Toner Transfer friendly pads as well as
adding many new compnents for my own use.

Myc

On Feb 17, 2008 3:34 PM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>   Digikey alone has over 1.3 million components in their online catalog,
> what are 50,000?
> What worth are those parts that exist if they are usually unfit for use?
>
> Making components is a basic function of any PCB package, just like
> drawing connections or routing traces.
> In my opinion it can not be considered optional or advanced in any way.
>
> ST
>
> On Feb 17, 2008 8:28 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...<wwinters%40pwrtc.com>>
> wrote:
> > I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> > there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's not just an issue with toner transfer. Most PCB packages come
with component libraries meant for professionally made PTH boards. The
pads are far too small for single sided boards and beginners wonder
why their boards come out crappy and unreliable. The ones that aren't
lazy will do what you did and get good results, the others, well,
let's hope they'll learn eventually.

At least all decent PCB packages allow to change pad size after the
fact when the part is placed. Eagle does not, of course, i hate it.

ST

On Feb 17, 2008 9:51 PM, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
> When using the Toner Transfer method, it is helpful to have oversized pads,
> to prevent liftoff while soldering.
>
> I created an entire library of Toner Transfer friendly pads as well as
> adding many new compnents for my own use.
>
> Myc
>

Give some examples of what you guys believe to be good pad sizes for various 
applications.

Thanks,
Chuck
WB2EDV



----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> It's not just an issue with toner transfer. Most PCB packages come
> with component libraries meant for professionally made PTH boards. The
> pads are far too small for single sided boards and beginners wonder
> why their boards come out crappy and unreliable. The ones that aren't
> lazy will do what you did and get good results, the others, well,
> let's hope they'll learn eventually.
>
> At least all decent PCB packages allow to change pad size after the
> fact when the part is placed. Eagle does not, of course, i hate it.
>
> ST
>
> On Feb 17, 2008 9:51 PM, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
>> When using the Toner Transfer method, it is helpful to have oversized 
>> pads,
>> to prevent liftoff while soldering.
>>
>> I created an entire library of Toner Transfer friendly pads as well as
>> adding many new compnents for my own use.
>>
>> Myc
>>

With a library part meant for PTH a hole might have a 8 or 10 mil ring
around it. If you want a structurally sound pad i would use  about 1mm
ring around the hole minimum (this is about 40 mil). This greatly
depends on the component and a lot of other things.
For components with 100mil pitch this obviously means oblong pads,
round or square ones won't cut it for me.

It is a big no-no to put any lifting force on a pad anyway because
each component must sit flush against the other side or use some form
of standoff or special bend. But despite this pads still often
experience lifting forces and must be properly large for strength. In
a PTH board the plating forms sort of a rivet with the two pads and
solder, which is reasonably strong on it's own.

ST

On Feb 17, 2008 10:18 PM, Chuck Kelsey <wb2edv@...> wrote:
> Give some examples of what you guys believe to be good pad sizes for various
> applications.
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck
> WB2EDV
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace
>
>
> > It's not just an issue with toner transfer. Most PCB packages come
> > with component libraries meant for professionally made PTH boards. The
> > pads are far too small for single sided boards and beginners wonder
> > why their boards come out crappy and unreliable. The ones that aren't
> > lazy will do what you did and get good results, the others, well,
> > let's hope they'll learn eventually.
> >
> > At least all decent PCB packages allow to change pad size after the
> > fact when the part is placed. Eagle does not, of course, i hate it.
> >
> > ST
> >
> > On Feb 17, 2008 9:51 PM, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
> >> When using the Toner Transfer method, it is helpful to have oversized
> >> pads,
> >> to prevent liftoff while soldering.
> >>
> >> I created an entire library of Toner Transfer friendly pads as well as
> >> adding many new compnents for my own use.
> >>
> >> Myc
> >>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Chuck Kelsey" <wb2edv@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> Give some examples of what you guys believe to be good pad sizes for 
> various
> applications.

For DIL chips on home-made PCBs I use 100 x 55 mils oval pads  with a 32 mil 
(0.8 mm) hole.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

"Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> The pads are far too small for single sided boards

It works both ways.  I have a set of footprints I use for home-brew
that have SMALLER smt pads than the "professional" size, because I
know how my system works and smaller helps me position the parts (ex:
LEDs) more accurately, not to mention not wasting space.

I also usually do my own TSOP and TQFP that have less copper (length)
under the chip, to avoid shorts where they're harder to fix.

> At least all decent PCB packages allow to change pad size after the
> fact when the part is placed. Eagle does not, of course, i hate it.

PCB does, and I usually end up modifying about half the PTH pads for
one reason or another.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:28:34 -0000, you wrote:

When the part you want is not in the library.  Happens frequently in
Eagle.  

Harvey

>I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
>there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
><stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>>
>> Making parts is not some advanced skill, it is like the engine
>> rebuilder not knowing how to use a spanner and asking for the
>> pneumatic ratchet to compensate for his lack of basic knoweledge.
>> 
>> You can use windows without learning to use a mouse, but would you
>want to?
>> 
>> It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to find out how to make a basic
>> library component, you really need to know.
>> 
>> ST
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2008 6:22 PM, coronetman1965 <wwinters@...> wrote:
>> > Leon Isn't this like if I was an engine builder and you was rebuilding
>> >       a engine for the first time and you wanted to know where to
>> > find a carburator and I would reply back to you and say why don't you
>> > just build one. Wayne
>> >
>>
>

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:08:12 +0100, you wrote:

>It's not just an issue with toner transfer. Most PCB packages come
>with component libraries meant for professionally made PTH boards. The
>pads are far too small for single sided boards and beginners wonder
>why their boards come out crappy and unreliable. The ones that aren't
>lazy will do what you did and get good results, the others, well,
>let's hope they'll learn eventually.
>
>At least all decent PCB packages allow to change pad size after the
>fact when the part is placed. Eagle does not, of course, i hate it.

Actually, and in an odd sense, it does.

If you go into the library of that part, and change the pad diameter,
then save the library, do a library update, then it does.

That's for all instances of that part, though.

If you want to preserve your own libraries, then you must copy a part
from the supplied libraries to your own, change that part, and then
replace that part (every instance) with your own part.  Then you have
control over it regardless of what you (or they) do with the eagle
libraries.

Royal pain, but only needs to be done once.


Oh, and you might look at the design rules and change them.  Doing so
can change the size of a pad for a via, for instance, globally.  Never
tried it with parts, though.


Harvey

>
>ST
>
>On Feb 17, 2008 9:51 PM, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
>> When using the Toner Transfer method, it is helpful to have oversized pads,
>> to prevent liftoff while soldering.
>>
>> I created an entire library of Toner Transfer friendly pads as well as
>> adding many new compnents for my own use.
>>
>> Myc
>>

On Feb 18, 2008 2:48 AM, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, and in an odd sense, it does.
>
> If you go into the library of that part, and change the pad diameter,
> then save the library, do a library update, then it does.
>
> That's for all instances of that part, though.

Yes, but that's hardly changing it in the layout ;-)

Sometimes it makes sense to change one or a few pads like in a special
area, where there is not enough space. You don't want to change all
parts, even in the same layout. With eagle this is a royal pain, with
other software this is easy.

>
> If you want to preserve your own libraries, then you must copy a part
> from the supplied libraries to your own, change that part, and then
> replace that part (every instance) with your own part.  Then you have
> control over it regardless of what you (or they) do with the eagle
> libraries.

That's what i do anyway.

> Royal pain, but only needs to be done once.

And every time you want to change any tiny thing.
It's surprising really that they even allow us to move the text
(component reference and value). We ought to change that in the
library too ;-)

> Oh, and you might look at the design rules and change them.  Doing so
> can change the size of a pad for a via, for instance, globally.  Never
> tried it with parts, though.


I know, another peculiarity. But even if it does work for parts (which
i don't know) it would still be useless to have one minimum size when
i need smaller and larger pads.

Worst software ever made that eagle, well, close to anyway.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace



>
> Worst software ever made that eagle, well, close to anyway.

Yes, it is crap! Where I used to work they tried to get me to use it, but I 
refused as I was suffering from RSI and all the key strokes and mouse 
operations needed aggravated the condition, not to mention the bugs. I 
refused to use it and insisted that I use my copy of Pulsonix, which they 
agreed to. Equivalant operations in Pulsonix needed about half the 
keystrokes and mouse clicks that were needed in Eagle!

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Leon, thank you for that idea!

I will cite helth reasons for refusing to use eagle.

(Sanity falls under health too, doesn't it?)

ST

On Feb 18, 2008 11:22 AM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

> Yes, it is crap! Where I used to work they tried to get me to use it, but I
> refused as I was suffering from RSI and all the key strokes and mouse
> operations needed aggravated the condition, not to mention the bugs. I
> refused to use it and insisted that I use my copy of Pulsonix, which they
> agreed to. Equivalant operations in Pulsonix needed about half the
> keystrokes and mouse clicks that were needed in Eagle!
>
> Leon

On 17 Feb 2008, at 19:28, coronetman1965 wrote:

> I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne

Pre-made library parts have pads that are too small to be easily used  
at home in my experience, so you're often better to make your own.

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

If any Diptrace user wants a copy of my toner transfer pads library.

Email me

Mycroft2152y at gmail.com


Note to Stefan:

Diptrace will import Eagle files and libraries, making it easy to move over
to
 Diptrace.

Myc
On Feb 18, 2008 9:51 AM, Derryck Croker <derryck@...> wrote:

>
> On 17 Feb 2008, at 19:28, coronetman1965 wrote:
>
> > I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> > there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
>
> Pre-made library parts have pads that are too small to be easily used
> at home in my experience, so you're often better to make your own.
>
> --
>
> Cheers
>
> Derryck
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DipTrace might be a nice package - I see that the developpers seem 
motivated and improve it constantly which is a good thing.

However, I tried it out myself, and must say that compared to Eagle, 
DipTrace still have a longer way to go. What I'm trying to say is that 
PADs or some other more pro packages IMHO are currently available 
alternatives to Eagle which offer more and cost more, but unfortunately 
not DipTrace. It's still lacking a lot of functionality available in 
Eagle. For someone with not too high requierements (i.e. a hobbyist but 
not limitted too this) DipTrace IMHO is a viable candidate, but I don't 
think its the right thing for an existing Eagle user which tries to move 
up to a more powerfull solution.

Regarding your sidenote about importing Eagle Projects into DipTrace - I 
also tried this with some sucess transfering the schematics, but a close 
to unuseable result when trying to port the layouts - and especially 
those give most of the work.

DipTrace support offered then to send them the schematics and board 
files, but that was something I could not do cause I do not own the 
design in question apart from the fact that I could not invest more time 
back then. So, it might be that ones mileage may varry here.

Just my 2\ufffd

Markus

Myc Holmes schrieb:

>
> If any Diptrace user wants a copy of my toner transfer pads library.
>
> Email me
>
> Mycroft2152y at gmail.com
>
> Note to Stefan:
>
> Diptrace will import Eagle files and libraries, making it easy to move 
> over
> to
> Diptrace.
>
> Myc
> On Feb 18, 2008 9:51 AM, Derryck Croker <derryck@... 
> <mailto:derryck%40cix.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 17 Feb 2008, at 19:28, coronetman1965 wrote:
> >
> > > I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> > > there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
> >
> > Pre-made library parts have pads that are too small to be easily used
> > at home in my experience, so you're often better to make your own.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Derryck
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

I'm curious, what functionality is DIPTRACE missing?

The ULP's ? Those were a user fix for missing functionality in EAGLE.

Myc



On Feb 18, 2008 10:43 AM, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...> wrote:

>   DipTrace might be a nice package - I see that the developpers seem
> motivated and improve it constantly which is a good thing.
>
> However, I tried it out myself, and must say that compared to Eagle,
> DipTrace still have a longer way to go. What I'm trying to say is that
> PADs or some other more pro packages IMHO are currently available
> alternatives to Eagle which offer more and cost more, but unfortunately
> not DipTrace. It's still lacking a lot of functionality available in
> Eagle. For someone with not too high requierements (i.e. a hobbyist but
> not limitted too this) DipTrace IMHO is a viable candidate, but I don't
> think its the right thing for an existing Eagle user which tries to move
> up to a more powerfull solution.
>
> Regarding your sidenote about importing Eagle Projects into DipTrace - I
> also tried this with some sucess transfering the schematics, but a close
> to unuseable result when trying to port the layouts - and especially
> those give most of the work.
>
> DipTrace support offered then to send them the schematics and board
> files, but that was something I could not do cause I do not own the
> design in question apart from the fact that I could not invest more time
> back then. So, it might be that ones mileage may varry here.
>
> Just my 2¢
>
> Markus
>
> Myc Holmes schrieb:
> >
> > If any Diptrace user wants a copy of my toner transfer pads library.
> >
> > Email me
> >
> > Mycroft2152y at gmail.com
> >
> > Note to Stefan:
> >
> > Diptrace will import Eagle files and libraries, making it easy to move
> > over
> > to
> > Diptrace.
> >
> > Myc
> > On Feb 18, 2008 9:51 AM, Derryck Croker <derryck@....uk<derryck%40cix.co.uk>
> > <mailto:derryck%40cix.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On 17 Feb 2008, at 19:28, coronetman1965 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components
> when
> > > > there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries. Wayne
> > >
> > > Pre-made library parts have pads that are too small to be easily used
> > > at home in my experience, so you're often better to make your own.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Derryck
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Markus Zingg" <homebrew-pcb@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DipTrace


> DipTrace might be a nice package - I see that the developpers seem
> motivated and improve it constantly which is a good thing.
>
> However, I tried it out myself, and must say that compared to Eagle,
> DipTrace still have a longer way to go. What I'm trying to say is that
> PADs or some other more pro packages IMHO are currently available
> alternatives to Eagle which offer more and cost more, but unfortunately
> not DipTrace. It's still lacking a lot of functionality available in
> Eagle. For someone with not too high requierements (i.e. a hobbyist but
> not limitted too this) DipTrace IMHO is a viable candidate, but I don't
> think its the right thing for an existing Eagle user which tries to move
> up to a more powerfull solution.
>
> Regarding your sidenote about importing Eagle Projects into DipTrace - I
> also tried this with some sucess transfering the schematics, but a close
> to unuseable result when trying to port the layouts - and especially
> those give most of the work.
>
> DipTrace support offered then to send them the schematics and board
> files, but that was something I could not do cause I do not own the
> design in question apart from the fact that I could not invest more time
> back then. So, it might be that ones mileage may varry here.

Pulsonix does a good job importing Eagle schematics, designs and libraries, 
but being a professional package is quite expensive. I once fixed a problem 
someone was having with an Eagle PCB design using it. 8-)

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008, coronetman1965 wrote:

> I can't get it in my head why you would want to build components when
> there are over 50,000 components listed in the libraries.

There's more than 50,000 types of IC around :-) Bet Diptrace doesn't have
the Wiznet W5100 in its library, for example.

Sooner or later, you're going to need to make your own footprints for any
schematics capture / PCB package - it's inevitable. It should be easy, too
- using gschem and PCB, you just draw the parts and convert them to
symbols or elements and add the appropriate attributes (i.e. pin numbers
and functions). I can't imagine any reasonably modern package is any more
difficult.