Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

I'm new to this group and joined to learn other (hopefully cheaper) 
methods of producing pcb's.

Many thanks indeed to everyone for the infomation available on this 
group that has enabled me to at least start producing excellent 
single sided pcb's using the TT method and laminator 

I was using photoresist with pre-coated boards until recently but 
this has become an expensive option these days.

I have a laminator (Fellowes Saturn A4) and HP laserjet 1200 printer.

The pcb I want to make measures 8.3" x 4.2" and also double sided.  

Following the instructions found on the messages for the procedure, I 
managed to produce a good single sided toner transfer pcb of the 
above size using pages removed from an old Toolstation catalogue and 
8 passes through the laminator. The pcb quality was as good as the 
photoresist method, which is very pleasing.

The only difficulty I had was that the paper tended to crinkle during 
the first couple of passes through the laminator rollers (earlier 
attempts whilst locating a suitable paper for the TT method was 
performed on much smaller boards and this problem didn't occur)  The 
answer seemed to be to place a sheet of plain copier type paper on 
top of the TT paper for the first few passes until the TT paper stuck 
solidly down. 

Although the laminator accepts a pcb + the thin TT paper quite 
happily, adding yet another, further, paper layer on top of the TT 
paper is causing the machine the stress itself. This sort of rules 
out any attempt to perform a simultaneous action on both pcb sides at 
the same time.

Does anyone know a method to achieve double sided boards using 
preprinted mag/cat paper to make double sided pcb's?

Regards,

Steve (GW4ZDU)

Yes, put aside the unsuitable laminator and get/make one that takes
the thicker stack.

You could also make one side at a time if you are that attached to
your laminator. Just protect the other copper side during etching.

ST

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Steve G4ZDU
<s.l.kirkwood@...> wrote:

>
> Does anyone know a method to achieve double sided boards using
> preprinted mag/cat paper to make double sided pcb's?
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve (GW4ZDU)
>

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:51:05 -0000, you wrote:

One method that is recommended by pulsar (who makes TT paper).

1)  take the DS board and prepare one side.  Toner transfer to it.
Registration is not a problem yet.

2) cut a piece of self adhesive shelf paper (Kmart: Martha Stewart)
and fasten it to the unprocessed side.

3) etch the board as usual.  You should get a one sided board with
bare (and protected) copper on the other side.

4) remove the backing, do not yet tin coat the board if you do this.

5) at this point, I then drill a few well chosen holes in the board,
and matching holes in the paper.

6) prepare the board and align the second side with the holes in the
first.

7) run the board through the laminator again.  You can use thin paper
to protect the other side's toner

8) put a layer of contact paper (I use transparent so I can see what's
happening) on the etched side.

9) etch the board if the registration is OK.  I'd put in a pattern to
make sure of that.

10) remove the backing, and the used toner.  Tin plate as needed.

11) trim the board and drill as required.

Comments:

1) this is a lot of steps

2) it's easier to align a pattern with the etched pattern on the other
side of the board than otherwise.

3) less stress on the laminator

4) if you have a problem with both sides etching at different rates,
this solves it.

5) you can strip the second side and reposition it if you must, since
the first side is aligned by definition.

6) if something goes wrong on the first side, you have not wasted more
etchant and toner transfer paper.

Evaluation:

seems to work so far, but I'm still getting the hang of it.

Harvey

>Hi,
>
>I'm new to this group and joined to learn other (hopefully cheaper) 
>methods of producing pcb's.
>
>Many thanks indeed to everyone for the infomation available on this 
>group that has enabled me to at least start producing excellent 
>single sided pcb's using the TT method and laminator 
>
>I was using photoresist with pre-coated boards until recently but 
>this has become an expensive option these days.
>
>I have a laminator (Fellowes Saturn A4) and HP laserjet 1200 printer.
>
>The pcb I want to make measures 8.3" x 4.2" and also double sided.  
>
>Following the instructions found on the messages for the procedure, I 
>managed to produce a good single sided toner transfer pcb of the 
>above size using pages removed from an old Toolstation catalogue and 
>8 passes through the laminator. The pcb quality was as good as the 
>photoresist method, which is very pleasing.
>
>The only difficulty I had was that the paper tended to crinkle during 
>the first couple of passes through the laminator rollers (earlier 
>attempts whilst locating a suitable paper for the TT method was 
>performed on much smaller boards and this problem didn't occur)  The 
>answer seemed to be to place a sheet of plain copier type paper on 
>top of the TT paper for the first few passes until the TT paper stuck 
>solidly down. 
>
>Although the laminator accepts a pcb + the thin TT paper quite 
>happily, adding yet another, further, paper layer on top of the TT 
>paper is causing the machine the stress itself. This sort of rules 
>out any attempt to perform a simultaneous action on both pcb sides at 
>the same time.
>
>Does anyone know a method to achieve double sided boards using 
>preprinted mag/cat paper to make double sided pcb's?
>
>Regards,
>
>Steve (GW4ZDU)

I do a little bit of etching and registration is important for me. The way I 
do it is I take both the printouts with traces an put a Plexiglass the 
thickness of the PCB in between the printout once aligned under light I put 
a tape on the top of the sheet that holds both the sheets together. Now I 
open it up with the tape as a hinge. Replace the plexiglass with a PCB, 
laminate and etch. Some of my work that involved etching are here
http://kimsartshop.com/Bicycle.html
http://kimsartshop.com/Motorcycle.html
http://kimsartshop.com/CameraTrain.html


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Harvey White" <madyn@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer PCB Method


> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:51:05 -0000, you wrote:
>
> One method that is recommended by pulsar (who makes TT paper).
>
> 1)  take the DS board and prepare one side.  Toner transfer to it.
> Registration is not a problem yet.
>
> 2) cut a piece of self adhesive shelf paper (Kmart: Martha Stewart)
> and fasten it to the unprocessed side.
>
> 3) etch the board as usual.  You should get a one sided board with
> bare (and protected) copper on the other side.
>
> 4) remove the backing, do not yet tin coat the board if you do this.
>
> 5) at this point, I then drill a few well chosen holes in the board,
> and matching holes in the paper.
>
> 6) prepare the board and align the second side with the holes in the
> first.
>
> 7) run the board through the laminator again.  You can use thin paper
> to protect the other side's toner
>
> 8) put a layer of contact paper (I use transparent so I can see what's
> happening) on the etched side.
>
> 9) etch the board if the registration is OK.  I'd put in a pattern to
> make sure of that.
>
> 10) remove the backing, and the used toner.  Tin plate as needed.
>
> 11) trim the board and drill as required.
>
> Comments:
>
> 1) this is a lot of steps
>
> 2) it's easier to align a pattern with the etched pattern on the other
> side of the board than otherwise.
>
> 3) less stress on the laminator
>
> 4) if you have a problem with both sides etching at different rates,
> this solves it.
>
> 5) you can strip the second side and reposition it if you must, since
> the first side is aligned by definition.
>
> 6) if something goes wrong on the first side, you have not wasted more
> etchant and toner transfer paper.
>
> Evaluation:
>
> seems to work so far, but I'm still getting the hang of it.
>
> Harvey
>
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'm new to this group and joined to learn other (hopefully cheaper)
>>methods of producing pcb's.
>>
>>Many thanks indeed to everyone for the infomation available on this
>>group that has enabled me to at least start producing excellent
>>single sided pcb's using the TT method and laminator
>>
>>I was using photoresist with pre-coated boards until recently but
>>this has become an expensive option these days.
>>
>>I have a laminator (Fellowes Saturn A4) and HP laserjet 1200 printer.
>>
>>The pcb I want to make measures 8.3" x 4.2" and also double sided.
>>
>>Following the instructions found on the messages for the procedure, I
>>managed to produce a good single sided toner transfer pcb of the
>>above size using pages removed from an old Toolstation catalogue and
>>8 passes through the laminator. The pcb quality was as good as the
>>photoresist method, which is very pleasing.
>>
>>The only difficulty I had was that the paper tended to crinkle during
>>the first couple of passes through the laminator rollers (earlier
>>attempts whilst locating a suitable paper for the TT method was
>>performed on much smaller boards and this problem didn't occur)  The
>>answer seemed to be to place a sheet of plain copier type paper on
>>top of the TT paper for the first few passes until the TT paper stuck
>>solidly down.
>>
>>Although the laminator accepts a pcb + the thin TT paper quite
>>happily, adding yet another, further, paper layer on top of the TT
>>paper is causing the machine the stress itself. This sort of rules
>>out any attempt to perform a simultaneous action on both pcb sides at
>>the same time.
>>
>>Does anyone know a method to achieve double sided boards using
>>preprinted mag/cat paper to make double sided pcb's?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Steve (GW4ZDU)
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Very cool. What material are you using for etching the bicycle and
motorcycle. What are the smallest dimensions you are able to etch. 

I have given some thought to trying to etch small brass parts like
gears, but have not gotten around to trying. 

Also curious about the laser cutter you used. What brand are you
using. Have you tried using it to ablate a resist layer off a metal
layer. Maybe something like black paint on metal.

Damon


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Vellore" <kimvellore@...>
wrote:
>
> I do a little bit of etching and registration is important for me.
The way I 
> do it is I take both the printouts with traces an put a Plexiglass the 
> thickness of the PCB in between the printout once aligned under
light I put 
> a tape on the top of the sheet that holds both the sheets together.
Now I 

> open it up with the tape as a hinge. Replace the plexiglass with a PCB, 
> laminate and etch. Some of my work that involved etching are here
> http://kimsartshop.com/Bicycle.html
> http://kimsartshop.com/Motorcycle.html
> http://kimsartshop.com/CameraTrain.html
> 
>

After trying many different processes to etch I am sticking to the blue 
paper http://www.techniks.com/
Just one or 2 passes in a laminator works well. and it is the fastest 
process for me.
As far as the thinnest line depends on the thickness of the copper you want 
to etch, for the thin flexible PCB I can etch hairline which is ~.2 pts, 1pt 
thickness = to .001 inches I have not measured it but it is pretty fine 
barely visible and a nail could easily take that copper off a PCB. I stick 
to .7pts for fine lines in the PCB.
Fot the motorcycle and bicycle I used brass sheets. I was never able to etch 
SS successfully the ink does not stay stuck to SS.

For gears I would use delrin and machine or laser them, etch brass gears 
dont come out well just for their thickness you cannot get a straight etch.
I use a epilog laser 45W. I have tried to spray paint a PCB, etch the traces 
and dip in FeCl, The two problems I see with that is the laser works by 
burning the paint off the coper and there is small amount of residue still 
on the copper which needs to be cleaned before etching, so it becomes a 
longer process, the second problem is to get double side etching it is 
difficult to flip the PCB and get good alignment.
The only use for a laser in a PCB world would be making the masks for 
putting solder paste.
Kim


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:02 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer PCB Method


> Very cool. What material are you using for etching the bicycle and
> motorcycle. What are the smallest dimensions you are able to etch.
>
> I have given some thought to trying to etch small brass parts like
> gears, but have not gotten around to trying.
>
> Also curious about the laser cutter you used. What brand are you
> using. Have you tried using it to ablate a resist layer off a metal
> layer. Maybe something like black paint on metal.
>
> Damon
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Vellore" <kimvellore@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> I do a little bit of etching and registration is important for me.
> The way I
>> do it is I take both the printouts with traces an put a Plexiglass the
>> thickness of the PCB in between the printout once aligned under
> light I put
>> a tape on the top of the sheet that holds both the sheets together.
> Now I
>> open it up with the tape as a hinge. Replace the plexiglass with a PCB,
>> laminate and etch. Some of my work that involved etching are here
>> http://kimsartshop.com/Bicycle.html
>> http://kimsartshop.com/Motorcycle.html
>> http://kimsartshop.com/CameraTrain.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Vellore" <kimvellore@...>
 
Many thanks to all who replied with advice for double sided pcb 
construction. I'll give it a go, it sounds as though that process 
will work.

Steve GW4ZDU

wrote:
>
> I do a little bit of etching and registration is important for me. 
The way I 
> do it is I take both the printouts with traces an put a Plexiglass 
the 
> thickness of the PCB in between the printout once aligned under 
light I put 
> a tape on the top of the sheet that holds both the sheets together. 
Now I 
> open it up with the tape as a hinge. Replace the plexiglass with a 
PCB, 
> laminate and etch. Some of my work that involved etching are here
> http://kimsartshop.com/Bicycle.html
> http://kimsartshop.com/Motorcycle.html
> http://kimsartshop.com/CameraTrain.html
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Harvey White" <madyn@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 10:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer PCB Method
> 
> 
> > On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:51:05 -0000, you wrote:
> >
> > One method that is recommended by pulsar (who makes TT paper).
> >
> > 1)  take the DS board and prepare one side.  Toner transfer to it.
> > Registration is not a problem yet.
> >
> > 2) cut a piece of self adhesive shelf paper (Kmart: Martha 
Stewart)
> > and fasten it to the unprocessed side.
> >
> > 3) etch the board as usual.  You should get a one sided board with
> > bare (and protected) copper on the other side.
> >
> > 4) remove the backing, do not yet tin coat the board if you do 
this.
> >
> > 5) at this point, I then drill a few well chosen holes in the 
board,
> > and matching holes in the paper.
> >
> > 6) prepare the board and align the second side with the holes in 
the
> > first.
> >
> > 7) run the board through the laminator again.  You can use thin 
paper
> > to protect the other side's toner
> >
> > 8) put a layer of contact paper (I use transparent so I can see 
what's
> > happening) on the etched side.
> >
> > 9) etch the board if the registration is OK.  I'd put in a 
pattern to
> > make sure of that.
> >
> > 10) remove the backing, and the used toner.  Tin plate as needed.
> >
> > 11) trim the board and drill as required.
> >
> > Comments:
> >
> > 1) this is a lot of steps
> >
> > 2) it's easier to align a pattern with the etched pattern on the 
other
> > side of the board than otherwise.
> >
> > 3) less stress on the laminator
> >
> > 4) if you have a problem with both sides etching at different 
rates,
> > this solves it.
> >
> > 5) you can strip the second side and reposition it if you must, 
since
> > the first side is aligned by definition.
> >
> > 6) if something goes wrong on the first side, you have not wasted 
more

> > etchant and toner transfer paper.
> >
> > Evaluation:
> >
> > seems to work so far, but I'm still getting the hang of it.
> >
> > Harvey

Hi Steve,

I've been having quite a bit of luck using toner transfer with simple
sheets of magazine paper and an iron.  All of the boards I've made have
been smaller than what you are talking about, but some have been
reasonably complex with 12mil traces so I don't see why it wouldn't work
for larger boards, especially if you have a laminator.

I've written up my experience
<http://catmacey.wordpress.com/projects/making-pcbs-with-simple-tools/>
on my web site with lots of photos if you are interested in having a
look.

Regards



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nice write up!

You have added one very improtant step, using a dowel to "focus" the
pressure.

Very clever.

Myc

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 3:30 PM, catmacey2 <matt@...> wrote:

>   Hi Steve,
>
> I've been having quite a bit of luck using toner transfer with simple
> sheets of magazine paper and an iron. All of the boards I've made have
> been smaller than what you are talking about, but some have been
> reasonably complex with 12mil traces so I don't see why it wouldn't work
> for larger boards, especially if you have a laminator.
>
> I've written up my experience
> <http://catmacey.wordpress.com/projects/making-pcbs-with-simple-tools/>
> on my web site with lots of photos if you are interested in having a
> look.
>
> Regards
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "catmacey2" <matt@...> wrote:
>
Thanks for the excellent description of your toner transfer method 
and photo's. I'm sure given time I'll crack the process thoroughly. 
I'm getting there and my next effort is the double sided board!
Thanks again,
Best regards,
 
Steve

> Hi Steve,
> 
> I've been having quite a bit of luck using toner transfer with 
simple
> sheets of magazine paper and an iron.  All of the boards I've made 
have
> been smaller than what you are talking about, but some have been
> reasonably complex with 12mil traces so I don't see why it wouldn't 
work
> for larger boards, especially if you have a laminator.
> 
> I've written up my experience
> <http://catmacey.wordpress.com/projects/making-pcbs-with-simple-
tools/>

> on my web site with lots of photos if you are interested in having a
> look.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi All,

I'm glad you found site useful.  I've been lurking in this group for a long
time so I thought it was about time I gave something back.

I think for me the dowel is the key thing, certainly as I'm using an hand
iron to provide the heat and pressure.  Previously I had tried ironing onto
a flat surface but I always ended up with areas that didn't transfer and
subsequently required a lot of fixing.  It really put me off making boards
at all as it just never seemed worth the hassle, especially after fighting
with Eagle for hours to create the circuit layout. But since using the dowel
things have been much more successful.

I think the two important points are.
1). It focuses the pressure into a much smaller board area.
2). The board gets hotter and stays more evenly heated as the only point of
contact for heat sinking is the dowel.

It also makes for a more straight forward production method.  Roll 3 or 4
times, rotate 90 degrees, roll again, rotate etc.  Which I think leads to a
more even and systematic coverage than just going at it with the iron on a
flat surface.

Best of luck with your boards.

Regards

Matt Casey