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International House of PC Boards

International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Chris Trask

I'm very much interested in trying this laser toner transfer method for
homebrewing single-sided PC boards, and the thought came to me that perhaps
an electric waffle iron would be a more practical alternative than using a
clothes iron.  With the PC board material and the paper sandwiched between a
couple of pieces of aluminum or copper plate, the heat and pressure would be
more uniform and it would become a matter of applying the pressure for a
suitable amount of time.

    But without any strawberries or blueberries.  :{b

    Has anyone ever tried this approach?

Chris

     ,----------------------.       High Performance Mixers and
    /    What's all this     \    Amplifiers for RF Communications
   / extinct stuff, anyhow?  /
   \  _______,--------------'           Chris Trask / N7ZWY
  _ |/                                  Principal Engineer
 oo\                                  Sonoran Radio Research
(__)\       _                             P.O. Box 25240
  \  \    .'  `.                     Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
   \  \  /      \
    \  '"        \                 IEEE Senior Member #40274515
     .       (  ) \
      '-| )__| :.  \              Email: christrask@...
        | |  | | \  '.       http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
       c__; c__;  '-..'>.__

                       Graphics by Loek Frederiks

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Stefan Trethan

From what I recall of past discussions it does not always work so well
to use plates.

The problem is that even if the plates are totally flat, the results
don't turn out consistent across the board.
You may need something compressible like a silicone rubber pad or
fabric to even out the pressure.


ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Chris Trask <christrask@...> wrote:
>    I'm very much interested in trying this laser toner transfer method for
> homebrewing single-sided PC boards, and the thought came to me that perhaps
> an electric waffle iron would be a more practical alternative than using a
> clothes iron.  With the PC board material and the paper sandwiched between a
> couple of pieces of aluminum or copper plate, the heat and pressure would be
> more uniform and it would become a matter of applying the pressure for a
> suitable amount of time.
>
>    But without any strawberries or blueberries.  :{b
>
>    Has anyone ever tried this approach?
>
> Chris
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Jim

Chris, I have not tried an waffle iron, but I got a 1 inch thick piece 
of steel (4x5x1 inch) and lapped it to make a very flat surface, 
attached a thermo couple to it. Using a hot plate to heat the iron block 
to to the target temperature then placing this on my PCB/toner image 
sandwich and clamping it with a toggle clamp with about 400  pounds of 
pressure for about 1 minute (20 pounds per square inch).  This gives me 
consistent results.
The target temperature is established for the toner formulation your 
printer uses.  This involves taking an image on a piece of paper and  
while monitoring the temp of the hot plate, looking at the toner with a  
magnifier and using a sharp pointed probe and noting the softening temp 
and the melting temp (my toner melts at about 320 degrees F) The melting 
temp is when the toner becomes glossy (shiny). The pressure and temp 
combination will determine the amount of image spreading that will occur 
. On small pitch traces you may adjust the temp/pressure/time 
combination for best results. For very fine pitches, I use  a temp of 
about 280 degrees (this will just tack the image to the  copper) then I 
take this tacked PCB/toner/paper sandwich and place it on the hot plate 
and raise it to the toner melting point (without pressure) ... this will 
cause good adhesion of the toner to the copper with minimum image spreading.
Jim KI6MZ

Chris Trask wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>     I'm very much interested in trying this laser toner transfer method for
> homebrewing single-sided PC boards, and the thought came to me that perhaps
> an electric waffle iron would be a more practical alternative than using a
> clothes iron.  With the PC board material and the paper sandwiched between a
> couple of pieces of aluminum or copper plate, the heat and pressure would be
> more uniform and it would become a matter of applying the pressure for a
> suitable amount of time.
>
>     But without any strawberries or blueberries.  :{b
>
>     Has anyone ever tried this approach?
>
> Chris
>
>      ,----------------------.       High Performance Mixers and
>     /    What's all this     \    Amplifiers for RF Communications
>    / extinct stuff, anyhow?  /
>    \  _______,--------------'           Chris Trask / N7ZWY
>   _ |/                                  Principal Engineer
>  oo\                                  Sonoran Radio Research
> (__)\       _                             P.O. Box 25240
>   \  \    .'  `.                     Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
>    \  \  /      \
>     \  '"        \                 IEEE Senior Member #40274515
>      .       (  ) \
>       '-| )__| :.  \              Email: christrask@...
>         | |  | | \  '.       http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
>        c__; c__;  '-..'>.__
>
>                        Graphics by Loek Frederiks
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Chris Trask

>
> >     I'm very much interested in trying this laser toner transfer method
for
> > homebrewing single-sided PC boards, and the thought came to me that
perhaps
> > an electric waffle iron would be a more practical alternative than using
a
> > clothes iron.  With the PC board material and the paper sandwiched
between a
> > couple of pieces of aluminum or copper plate, the heat and pressure
would be
> > more uniform and it would become a matter of applying the pressure for a
> > suitable amount of time.
>
> Chris, I have not tried an waffle iron, but I got a 1 inch thick piece
> of steel (4x5x1 inch) and lapped it to make a very flat surface,
> attached a thermo couple to it. Using a hot plate to heat the iron block
> to to the target temperature then placing this on my PCB/toner image
> sandwich and clamping it with a toggle clamp with about 400  pounds of
> pressure for about 1 minute (20 pounds per square inch).  This gives me
> consistent results.
>

    That's what I felt would result, and I was thinking that using an
electric waffle iron would enable you to apply uniform pressure and a
somewhat controoled temperature.  Guess I'll look around the thrift stores
for one of these and see what can be done.

>
> The target temperature is established for the toner formulation your
> printer uses.  This involves taking an image on a piece of paper and
> while monitoring the temp of the hot plate, looking at the toner with a
> magnifier and using a sharp pointed probe and noting the softening temp
> and the melting temp (my toner melts at about 320 degrees F) The melting
> temp is when the toner becomes glossy (shiny). The pressure and temp
> combination will determine the amount of image spreading that will occur.
>

    Okay, that gives me a guideline of how to condition the method that I'm
thinking of.

>
> On small pitch traces you may adjust the temp/pressure/time
> combination for best results. For very fine pitches, I use  a temp of
> about 280 degrees (this will just tack the image to the  copper) then I
> take this tacked PCB/toner/paper sandwich and place it on the hot plate
> and raise it to the toner melting point (without pressure) ... this will
> cause good adhesion of the toner to the copper with minimum image
spreading.
>

    And that's even better.  I'll definitely look for a small electric
waffle iron and see how to adapt it for small boards.  I wonder now if
adding a thermocouple to one of the plates and then connecting it to some
sort of controller would help, or perhaps simply measure the waffle iron
temperature and adjust the time accordingly.


Chris

     ,----------------------.       High Performance Mixers and
    /    What's all this     \    Amplifiers for RF Communications
   / extinct stuff, anyhow?  /
   \  _______,--------------'           Chris Trask / N7ZWY
  _ |/                                  Principal Engineer
 oo\                                  Sonoran Radio Research
(__)\       _                             P.O. Box 25240
  \  \    .'  `.                     Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
   \  \  /      \
    \  '"        \                 IEEE Senior Member #40274515
     .       (  ) \
      '-| )__| :.  \              Email: christrask@...
        | |  | | \  '.       http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
       c__; c__;  '-..'>.__

                       Graphics by Loek Frederiks

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Jim

Chris Trask wrote:
>>>     I'm very much interested in trying this laser toner transfer method
>>>       
> for
>   
>>> homebrewing single-sided PC boards, and the thought came to me that
>>>       
> perhaps
>   
>>> an electric waffle iron would be a more practical alternative than using
>>>       
> a
>   
>>> clothes iron.  With the PC board material and the paper sandwiched
>>>       
> between a
>   
>>> couple of pieces of aluminum or copper plate, the heat and pressure
>>>       
> would be
>   
>>> more uniform and it would become a matter of applying the pressure for a
>>> suitable amount of time.
>>>       
>> Chris, I have not tried an waffle iron, but I got a 1 inch thick piece
>> of steel (4x5x1 inch) and lapped it to make a very flat surface,
>> attached a thermo couple to it. Using a hot plate to heat the iron block
>> to to the target temperature then placing this on my PCB/toner image
>> sandwich and clamping it with a toggle clamp with about 400  pounds of
>> pressure for about 1 minute (20 pounds per square inch).  This gives me
>> consistent results.
>>
>>     
>
>     That's what I felt would result, and I was thinking that using an
> electric waffle iron would enable you to apply uniform pressure and a
> somewhat controoled temperature.  Guess I'll look around the thrift stores
> for one of these and see what can be done.
>
>   
>> The target temperature is established for the toner formulation your
>> printer uses.  This involves taking an image on a piece of paper and
>> while monitoring the temp of the hot plate, looking at the toner with a
>> magnifier and using a sharp pointed probe and noting the softening temp
>> and the melting temp (my toner melts at about 320 degrees F) The melting
>> temp is when the toner becomes glossy (shiny). The pressure and temp
>> combination will determine the amount of image spreading that will occur.
>>
>>     
>
>     Okay, that gives me a guideline of how to condition the method that I'm
> thinking of.
>
>   
>> On small pitch traces you may adjust the temp/pressure/time
>> combination for best results. For very fine pitches, I use  a temp of
>> about 280 degrees (this will just tack the image to the  copper) then I
>> take this tacked PCB/toner/paper sandwich and place it on the hot plate
>> and raise it to the toner melting point (without pressure) ... this will
>> cause good adhesion of the toner to the copper with minimum image
>>     
> spreading.
>   
>
>     And that's even better.  I'll definitely look for a small electric
> waffle iron and see how to adapt it for small boards.  I wonder now if
> adding a thermocouple to one of the plates and then connecting it to some
> sort of controller would help, or perhaps simply measure the waffle iron
> temperature and adjust the time accordingly.
>
>
> Chris
>
>      ,----------------------.       High Performance Mixers and
>     /    What's all this     \    Amplifiers for RF Communications
>    / extinct stuff, anyhow?  /
>    \  _______,--------------'           Chris Trask / N7ZWY
>   _ |/                                  Principal Engineer
>  oo\                                  Sonoran Radio Research
> (__)\       _                             P.O. Box 25240
>   \  \    .'  `.                     Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
>    \  \  /      \
>     \  '"        \                 IEEE Senior Member #40274515
>      .       (  ) \
>       '-| )__| :.  \              Email: christrask@...
>         | |  | | \  '.       http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
>        c__; c__;  '-..'>.__
>
>                        Graphics by Loek Frederiks
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>   
I used a thick piece of steel to avoid uneven heating and distortion 
while clamping. When I heat the steel, my thermocouple (on the top 
surface) lags the temp on the lower surface. So I heat the steel and 
when the top surface is at the target temp, the bottom surface is at a 
higher temp. Before I place the steel on the PCB/image sandwich and 
after I remove it from the hot plate, I monitor the temp ... it will 
continue to rise ...  level out ... then begin to fall ... this is when 
I place it on the sandwich (the large mass will  maintain the temp 
better after the sandwich starts to come up to temp) ...
I also place the PCB on about 4 plys of paper towel to help the self 
leveling of the PCB ...
Steel will soften when heated and will buckle or flex while being 
heated  (steel is a poor conductor of heat) ... a thin plate with 
heating elements close to the surface will show "a pattern" and cause 
uneven heating ... using a thick sheet of steel between the waffle iron 
surfaces will help but applying sufficient pressure will be difficult 
... I also put a wooden handle on the steel block so I could handle the 
steel without dropping it or burning my self!!
Practice, practice practice    will eventually yield a good procedure 
with your set-up ... or any other process ...
The good thing about the TT process is you can see the pattern on the 
copper before etching and if it has defects, some acetone cleans it off 
and you can try again ............
Jim KI6MZ
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Harvey White

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:41:25 -0700, you wrote:

Would beat the heck out of a T-shirt press.  Probably better than a
laminator.

However, the smooth sided one with a heat control would be needed,
probably have to make the heat control, and spacing would be
interesting.  

Nice thought.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>    I'm very much interested in trying this laser toner transfer method for
>homebrewing single-sided PC boards, and the thought came to me that perhaps
>an electric waffle iron would be a more practical alternative than using a
>clothes iron.  With the PC board material and the paper sandwiched between a
>couple of pieces of aluminum or copper plate, the heat and pressure would be
>more uniform and it would become a matter of applying the pressure for a
>suitable amount of time.
>
>    But without any strawberries or blueberries.  :{b
>
>    Has anyone ever tried this approach?
>
>Chris
>
>     ,----------------------.       High Performance Mixers and
>    /    What's all this     \    Amplifiers for RF Communications
>   / extinct stuff, anyhow?  /
>   \  _______,--------------'           Chris Trask / N7ZWY
>  _ |/                                  Principal Engineer
> oo\                                  Sonoran Radio Research
>(__)\       _                             P.O. Box 25240
>  \  \    .'  `.                     Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
>   \  \  /      \
>    \  '"        \                 IEEE Senior Member #40274515
>     .       (  ) \
>      '-| )__| :.  \              Email: christrask@...
>        | |  | | \  '.       http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
>       c__; c__;  '-..'>.__
>
>                       Graphics by Loek Frederiks

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] International House of PC Boards

2009-02-25 by Stefan Trethan

One would think that a large aluminium plate, or copper if you are
that wealthy, would be more suitable for better heat transfer?

I used an aluminium plate for this reason on the soldering hotplate.
The thermocouple is inserted in a hole i drilled in the side.

ST

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