Homebrew PCBs

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:48 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Slipping rollers on new GBC H310

 

  

I'm testing the new GBC H310 laminator I got today. With the heat on max, the rollers slip a bit with a brand new Radio Shack .067"
x 4.52" x 6.3" double sided pcb with basic laser printer toner transfer paper on just one side. I can assist it through the
laminator by pushing or pulling gently. Is this typical? I'll use magazine paper next time. I just wanted a quick test.

I tried to peel the laser printer paper off dry but it felt well adhered to the copper. So now it's soaking in soapy water to see if
the toner was heated and compressed enough without modifying the laminator. I expect from Chris's post of last year, that I will
have to take the cover off and twist the pot for more heat. But right now the roller's slipping is the primary issue.

Mike





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> I'm not familiar with the H310, but I have the H65 (yet to be used) but as I recall, the H65 model requires assistance with the
> .062" boards (.067" max tolerance), not really recommended, but doable. If your feed thickness spacing is the same as the older
> model, I would consider it to be expected with it as well. IMHO.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Roger
> 
>  
> 
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:48 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Slipping rollers on new GBC H310
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> I'm testing the new GBC H310 laminator I got today. With the heat on max, the rollers slip a bit with a brand new Radio Shack .067"
> x 4.52" x 6.3" double sided pcb with basic laser printer toner transfer paper on just one side. I can assist it through the
> laminator by pushing or pulling gently. Is this typical? I'll use magazine paper next time. I just wanted a quick test.
> 
> I tried to peel the laser printer paper off dry but it felt well adhered to the copper. So now it's soaking in soapy water to see if
> the toner was heated and compressed enough without modifying the laminator. I expect from Chris's post of last year, that I will
> have to take the cover off and twist the pot for more heat. But right now the roller's slipping is the primary issue.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>
> It worked ok with 5 passes. I wiped the board clean with carb cleaner and also tried a general solvent that I have. Both worked better than acetone since they did not evaporate to fast and stain the copper. The edges of the board are stained, but are also super rough from being sheared. I should try both solvents on a board with no copper.
> 
> I have a page from a magazine I have used for years, to try next. I should pull that laminator apart just for fun. I suppose the rollers are geared together so I cannot widen the gap. But since the rollers are about a foot long, they flex enough to pass a .067" sandwich ok.
> 
> Mike

>
> I wonder if this laminator is too hot. It sure seems at least as hot as my old clothes iron. The board is very hard to hold onto when passing it a few times through the laminator. 
> 
> The magazine paper has micro-wrinkles after a couple of passes. I think it may have gotten the paper so hot that it shrank a bit. Just a guess. If it distorted the traces at all, then the next round I'll add another sheet above the magazine paper to see if it will help it not to micro-wrinkle.
> 
> The magazine paper moves all of the way through the laminator without being pulled or pushed. 
> 
> I used Tarnex for cleaning the copper. It does a great job.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >
> > It worked ok with 5 passes. I wiped the board clean with carb cleaner and also tried a general solvent that I have. Both worked better than acetone since they did not evaporate to fast and stain the copper. The edges of the board are stained, but are also super rough from being sheared. I should try both solvents on a board with no copper.
> > 
> > I have a page from a magazine I have used for years, to try next. I should pull that laminator apart just for fun. I suppose the rollers are geared together so I cannot widen the gap. But since the rollers are about a foot long, they flex enough to pass a .067" sandwich ok.
> > 
> > Mike
>

>
> Hey Mike, take a cooking thermometer (type with a metal probe) and stick the probes up against the rollers to see if you can get a temperature reading that way.
> 
> The $25 GBC Personal Laminator I have has a spring at the ends that allow the roller to open a bit for the thick boards.  I was told it was not spring loaded - and it's not per se, but a spring at the ends do hold pressure and will allow the rollers to open a tad with the thicker boards.  Using a .062" PCB I bevel the edges a bit and it will usually feed in, sometimes I have to push a bit to get the board started, but after starting it feeds just fine.
> 
> You sure got a deal on that H310 laminator!
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if this laminator is too hot. It sure seems at least as hot as my old clothes iron. The board is very hard to hold onto when passing it a few times through the laminator. 
> > 
> > The magazine paper has micro-wrinkles after a couple of passes. I think it may have gotten the paper so hot that it shrank a bit. Just a guess. If it distorted the traces at all, then the next round I'll add another sheet above the magazine paper to see if it will help it not to micro-wrinkle.
> > 
> > The magazine paper moves all of the way through the laminator without being pulled or pushed. 
> > 
> > I used Tarnex for cleaning the copper. It does a great job.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It worked ok with 5 passes. I wiped the board clean with carb cleaner and also tried a general solvent that I have. Both worked better than acetone since they did not evaporate to fast and stain the copper. The edges of the board are stained, but are also super rough from being sheared. I should try both solvents on a board with no copper.
> > > 
> > > I have a page from a magazine I have used for years, to try next. I should pull that laminator apart just for fun. I suppose the rollers are geared together so I cannot widen the gap. But since the rollers are about a foot long, they flex enough to pass a .067" sandwich ok.
> > > 
> > > Mike
> >
>

>
> I used HP Q7852A HP Advanced Photo Paper for a test today. It sticks like glue to the copper. So bad in fact that after a about 1-2 hours of soaking it still won't separate from the copper. It acts as though it has plastic in it. After about the 5 passes, some chunks of coating were pulled from the photo paper. Maybe too hot?? I could not find any of the paper listed in our database by part number. Checked 3 stores. I suspect most of them have been obsoleted to something newer. Time to find something more recent.
> 
> I think I'll go back to my magazine paper and turn the heat down a bit. It was actually transferring some of the text from the page as well as the toner. 
> 
> Mike
>

>
> Did you get a temperature on the rollers at the exit point?
> 
> I've sorta settled on magazine paper for now - it just works too good.  The little bit of text I've had to transfer has not been a problem - seems like the acid etched thru it?  I don't remember, but don't remember a problem.
> 
> Still having fun!!  Ken H.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >
> > I used HP Q7852A HP Advanced Photo Paper for a test today. It sticks like glue to the copper. So bad in fact that after a about 1-2 hours of soaking it still won't separate from the copper. It acts as though it has plastic in it. After about the 5 passes, some chunks of coating were pulled from the photo paper. Maybe too hot?? I could not find any of the paper listed in our database by part number. Checked 3 stores. I suspect most of them have been obsoleted to something newer. Time to find something more recent.
> > 
> > I think I'll go back to my magazine paper and turn the heat down a bit. It was actually transferring some of the text from the page as well as the toner. 
> > 
> > Mike
> >
>

>
> The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> 
> I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> 
> Mike

>
> Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> 
> If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> 
> Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> 
> You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> 
> Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments.
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >
> > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > 
> > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > 
> > Mike
>

>
> Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> 
> If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> 
> Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> 
> You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> 
> Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments.
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >
> > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > 
> > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > 
> > Mike
>

>
> My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer.  
> 
> I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> 
> I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > 
> > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > 
> > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > 
> > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > 
> > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments.
> > 
> > Ken H>
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > 
> > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > 
> > > Mike
> >
>

>
> The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to getting a good Toner Transfer.
> 
> So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my old clothes iron so I have a reference.
> 
> http://rotordesign.com/pcb/HPpresentation.jpg
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> >
> > My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer.  
> > 
> > I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> > 
> > I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > > 
> > > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > > 
> > > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > > 
> > > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > > 
> > > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments.
> > > 
> > > Ken H>
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > > 
> > > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > >
> >
>

On 08/08/2009, at 9:10 AM, Mike Phillips wrote:

> The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to  
> getting a good Toner Transfer.
>
> So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the  
> laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can  
> see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it  
> took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the  
> upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used  
> Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this  
> laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my  
> old clothes iron so I have a reference.
>
> http://rotordesign.com/pcb/HPpresentation.jpg
>
> Mike

> I'll try magazine paper again and take pics. Hopefully this is giving someone ideas of what I'm talking about. My clothes iron never gave me this much grief.
> 
> Mike
>

>
> Please do try the magazine paper - that's what I use with best success.  Sorta of a glossy magazine paper. It seems like anytime we try something new there are always teething pains.  When I first started with a laminator I didn't have good luck either - now it's a LOT better than what I was using before.
> 
> Hang in there and good luck
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> snip
> > I'll try magazine paper again and take pics. Hopefully this is giving someone ideas of what I'm talking about. My clothes iron never gave me this much grief.
> > 
> > Mike
> >
>

>
> Today I bought the GreenRTF and TT paper from Pulsar to add to my test matrix.
> 
> Mike
>

From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 7:12:52 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)

  
That red stuff between transfers is just a reflection. That's virgin pcb and it is very clean.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
>
> The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to getting a good Toner Transfer.
> 
> So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my old clothes iron so I have a reference.
> 
> http://rotordesign. com/pcb/HPpresen tation.jpg
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> >
> > My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer. 
> > 
> > I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> > 
> > I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > > 
> > > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > > 
> > > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > > 
> > > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > > 
> > > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments .
> > > 
> > > Ken H>
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > > 
> > > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > >
> >
>


   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 6:45 PM, michael tenore<wb2lcw@...> wrote:
> I never have a problem with HP presentation paper and I soak it for a while in warm water and then peel off the paper carefully.
>
> then i resoak and rub off with my thumbs..
>
> mike
>
>

From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 1:02:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper  testing)

  
If you ever need to do a lot of boards, and don't want sore thumbs, a
synthetic sponge or piece of foam rubber works very well. the material
really grabs the paper residue, even better than friction-ridged
fingers ;-)

ST

On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 6:45 PM, michael tenore<wb2lcw@yahoo. com> wrote:
> I never have a problem with HP presentation paper and I soak it for a while in warm water and then peel off the paper carefully.
>
> then i resoak and rub off with my thumbs..
>
> mike
>
>

   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> I never have a problem with HP presentation paper and I soak it for a while in warm water and then peel off the paper carefully.
> 
> then i resoak and rub off with my thumbs..
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 7:12:52 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)
> 
>   
> That red stuff between transfers is just a reflection. That's virgin pcb and it is very clean.
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to getting a good Toner Transfer.
> > 
> > So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my old clothes iron so I have a reference.
> > 
> > http://rotordesign. com/pcb/HPpresen tation.jpg
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer. 
> > > 
> > > I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> > > 
> > > I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > > > 
> > > > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > > > 
> > > > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > > > 
> > > > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > > > 
> > > > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments .
> > > > 
> > > > Ken H>
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mike
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>
> Since the HP Presentation paper we have is the same part number then the only thing that is different is our printers, laminators, and the temperatures used.
> 
> The HP Presentation paper transfer is about the same quality as my magazine paper transfer, with my process right now. This could change in the future.
> 
> I think that if we each had the temperature of our rollers like Ken has mentioned we would have a more universal process that more people would have success with. Right now the same paper is not producing the same results between us. So it has to be our processes.
> 
> Ken talks about temps should be around 360-380F. My rollers are 280-294F. Yet the HP Photo paper acts like it is melting at far too high of a temperature. It still won't come off of the copper. The gloss of the Hammermill Color laser Gloss is sticking to the pcb as well. It sure sounds like it's too hot. Then again the magazine paper is working decently, but could be better. 
> 
> My clothes iron is around 300F. Laminator is about the same. That's why my magazine paper produces about the same quality Toner Transfer with my iron or with my laminator. These temps are measured with a thermocouple and a digital thermometer. The infrared/laser inferometers are not always accurate if the surface has the wrong type of finish. 
> 
> To think it's just the paper being the problem is not accurate. I think the process has to be dialed into the specific paper being tried. I don't think that all papers are universal. I think they effect the temperature required in a big way. So I think a paper has to be chosen, then a process dialed in to match the paper.
> 
> Worst case I can use my magazine paper and the laminator at it's highest temp setting and get a decent board with the laminator. I'd rather have the quality and ease of use of the photo paper that folks have raved about. But there seem to be too many variations in each person's process to make it a universal process just yet.
> 
> If you have a paper that works great, please supply the temperature of the laminator rollers along with it, and the board thickness. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@> wrote:
> >
> > I never have a problem with HP presentation paper and I soak it for a while in warm water and then peel off the paper carefully.
> > 
> > then i resoak and rub off with my thumbs..
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 7:12:52 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)
> > 
> >   
> > That red stuff between transfers is just a reflection. That's virgin pcb and it is very clean.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to getting a good Toner Transfer.
> > > 
> > > So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my old clothes iron so I have a reference.
> > > 
> > > http://rotordesign. com/pcb/HPpresen tation.jpg
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer. 
> > > > 
> > > > I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> > > > 
> > > > I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments .
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ken H>
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >    
> > 
> > 
> >       
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 7:00:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingto@...> wrote:
>
> Mike, Where do you have your thermocouple checking temperature?  How are you reading the mV from the Thermocouple?  Are you using J or K T/C?

My DVM has a temperature input using a K type T/C. So the temperature is read directly from the DVM in F or C.

> 
> I am using J (that's what I had) with the ends twisted together and silver-soldered.  These twisted end is captured under one of the screws that was holding one of the thermal switches (switch removed).

I slide the T/C into the output of the laminator to get most of my readings. Sliding it into the input side is about 10 degrees warmer, but the rollers grab the tc and pull it in. 
  
> 
> I have read the T/C output with a DVM, but that was off a mV at least (when measuring boiling water at sea level (100 ft elevation)).  I'm now using a 50mV meter.  My best transfers seem to take place around 10 to 11mV range - 360F to 390F.
> 
> If you wish I can mail you a couple sheets of the magazine paper I am using - and if you wish you can mail me a couple sheets of your HP Presentation paper to try and see how our results compare?

That's fine, we can do that.

> 
> Does your digital thermometer compare pretty close to the temperature from the T/C?

Yes they are within a few degrees of each other. My digital thermometer only goes to 300F. Higher than that and it will be T/C only. I think we need to make sure we are at the same temperature range first. Being off 1mv on your J T/C, is equal to being off by 20C or 68F. That implies that your range could easily overlap my range if you are off by most of 1 millivolt.

Remember, my magazine paper transfers decently. Fine traces are not a problem. So I doubt it's a temperature issue.

Have you tried any photo paper to see if it melts?

Mike

From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 3:43:26 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)

  
Since the HP Presentation paper we have is the same part number then the only thing that is different is our printers, laminators, and the temperatures used.

The HP Presentation paper transfer is about the same quality as my magazine paper transfer, with my process right now. This could change in the future.

I think that if we each had the temperature of our rollers like Ken has mentioned we would have a more universal process that more people would have success with. Right now the same paper is not producing the same results between us. So it has to be our processes.

Ken talks about temps should be around 360-380F. My rollers are 280-294F. Yet the HP Photo paper acts like it is melting at far too high of a temperature. It still won't come off of the copper. The gloss of the Hammermill Color laser Gloss is sticking to the pcb as well. It sure sounds like it's too hot. Then again the magazine paper is working decently, but could be better. 

My clothes iron is around 300F. Laminator is about the same. That's why my magazine paper produces about the same quality Toner Transfer with my iron or with my laminator. These temps are measured with a thermocouple and a digital thermometer. The infrared/laser inferometers are not always accurate if the surface has the wrong type of finish. 

To think it's just the paper being the problem is not accurate. I think the process has to be dialed into the specific paper being tried. I don't think that all papers are universal. I think they effect the temperature required in a big way. So I think a paper has to be chosen, then a process dialed in to match the paper.

Worst case I can use my magazine paper and the laminator at it's highest temp setting and get a decent board with the laminator. I'd rather have the quality and ease of use of the photo paper that folks have raved about. But there seem to be too many variations in each person's process to make it a universal process just yet.

If you have a paper that works great, please supply the temperature of the laminator rollers along with it, and the board thickness. 

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@...> wrote:
>
> I never have a problem with HP presentation paper and I soak it for a while in warm water and then peel off the paper carefully.
> 
> then i resoak and rub off with my thumbs..
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@ ...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 7:12:52 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)
> 
> 
> That red stuff between transfers is just a reflection. That's virgin pcb and it is very clean.
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to getting a good Toner Transfer.
> > 
> > So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my old clothes iron so I have a reference.
> > 
> > http://rotordesign. com/pcb/HPpresen tation.jpg
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer. 
> > > 
> > > I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> > > 
> > > I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > > > 
> > > > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > > > 
> > > > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > > > 
> > > > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > > > 
> > > > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments .
> > > > 
> > > > Ken H>
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mike
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Hi, Mike.
> 
> May I ask what magazine you are using to supply the paper?  I've heard variously catalogue pages and fashion magazines.  If you'd care to share your source, it might help.
> 
> Thank you,
> Donald.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 7:00:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> >
> > Mike, Where do you have your thermocouple checking temperature?  How are you reading the mV from the Thermocouple?  Are you using J or K T/C?
> 
> My DVM has a temperature input using a K type T/C. So the temperature is read directly from the DVM in F or C.
> 
> > 
> > I am using J (that's what I had) with the ends twisted together and silver-soldered.  These twisted end is captured under one of the screws that was holding one of the thermal switches (switch removed).
> 
> I slide the T/C into the output of the laminator to get most of my readings. Sliding it into the input side is about 10 degrees warmer, but the rollers grab the tc and pull it in. 
>   
> > 
> > I have read the T/C output with a DVM, but that was off a mV at least (when measuring boiling water at sea level (100 ft elevation)).  I'm now using a 50mV meter.  My best transfers seem to take place around 10 to 11mV range - 360F to 390F.
> > 
> > If you wish I can mail you a couple sheets of the magazine paper I am using - and if you wish you can mail me a couple sheets of your HP Presentation paper to try and see how our results compare?
> 
> That's fine, we can do that.
> 
> > 
> > Does your digital thermometer compare pretty close to the temperature from the T/C?
> 
> Yes they are within a few degrees of each other. My digital thermometer only goes to 300F. Higher than that and it will be T/C only. I think we need to make sure we are at the same temperature range first. Being off 1mv on your J T/C, is equal to being off by 20C or 68F. That implies that your range could easily overlap my range if you are off by most of 1 millivolt.
> 
> Remember, my magazine paper transfers decently. Fine traces are not a problem. So I doubt it's a temperature issue.
> 
> Have you tried any photo paper to see if it melts?
> 
> Mike
>

>
> 
> 
> My laminator LCD screen says 328 degrees. I dont have anyway to confirm the temp!
> I pass my boards thru about ten times. I never have any trouble with the paper sticking to the board.
> My laminator has variable speed on the rollers and I use the slowest setting.. The GBC H535 will accept up to 100 mills thickness..
> 
> Some one else suggested Royal Bright photo paper. It is sold at Sams club and may be walmart..
> The person who suggested it says it will float off the board..
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 3:43:26 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)
> 
>   
> Since the HP Presentation paper we have is the same part number then the only thing that is different is our printers, laminators, and the temperatures used.
> 
> The HP Presentation paper transfer is about the same quality as my magazine paper transfer, with my process right now. This could change in the future.
> 
> I think that if we each had the temperature of our rollers like Ken has mentioned we would have a more universal process that more people would have success with. Right now the same paper is not producing the same results between us. So it has to be our processes.
> 
> Ken talks about temps should be around 360-380F. My rollers are 280-294F. Yet the HP Photo paper acts like it is melting at far too high of a temperature. It still won't come off of the copper. The gloss of the Hammermill Color laser Gloss is sticking to the pcb as well. It sure sounds like it's too hot. Then again the magazine paper is working decently, but could be better. 
> 
> My clothes iron is around 300F. Laminator is about the same. That's why my magazine paper produces about the same quality Toner Transfer with my iron or with my laminator. These temps are measured with a thermocouple and a digital thermometer. The infrared/laser inferometers are not always accurate if the surface has the wrong type of finish. 
> 
> To think it's just the paper being the problem is not accurate. I think the process has to be dialed into the specific paper being tried. I don't think that all papers are universal. I think they effect the temperature required in a big way. So I think a paper has to be chosen, then a process dialed in to match the paper.
> 
> Worst case I can use my magazine paper and the laminator at it's highest temp setting and get a decent board with the laminator. I'd rather have the quality and ease of use of the photo paper that folks have raved about. But there seem to be too many variations in each person's process to make it a universal process just yet.
> 
> If you have a paper that works great, please supply the temperature of the laminator rollers along with it, and the board thickness. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, michael tenore <wb2lcw@> wrote:
> >
> > I never have a problem with HP presentation paper and I soak it for a while in warm water and then peel off the paper carefully.
> > 
> > then i resoak and rub off with my thumbs..
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@ ...>
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 7:12:52 PM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Slipping rollers on new GBC H310 (and paper testing)
> > 
> > 
> > That red stuff between transfers is just a reflection. That's virgin pcb and it is very clean.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The rollers are still slipping some. But now I need to move on to getting a good Toner Transfer.
> > > 
> > > So I tried the HP Presentation 130g paper. Passed it through the laminator 4 times. I pulled the paper off of the board dry. You can see in this pic that the toner bonded well. But it looks like it took the gloss off of the paper and stuck it to the copper on the upper transfer. The lower transfer is scratched since I used Scotchbrite and water to remove the gloss residue. I swear this laminator acts like it's too hot. I need to measure the temp of my old clothes iron so I have a reference.
> > > 
> > > http://rotordesign. com/pcb/HPpresen tation.jpg
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My thermocouple reads very close to the digital thermometer. 
> > > > 
> > > > I went to Staples and asked about returning paper that I don't like. They said yes. So I bought Hammermill Color Laser Gloss and HP Glossy Laser Presentation Paper 130g. The first thing I did was put the Hammermill in some water to make sure it's not water proof. It softens up but does not dissolve. It has gloss on both sides to I ran it with a plain sheet of paper covering the glossy side to keep the rollers from getting mucked up. So I printed out my boards and ran the sandwich through the laminator 4 times. The Hammermill paper is not sticking to the copper. That's good news. The toner is sticking somewhat. This is where it looks like I need more heat to get the toner to stick better. So as soon as this laminator cools off I'll open it up and look for the temp adjust pot and increase it.
> > > > 
> > > > I'll run the Presentation paper through as well.
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "sailingto" <sailingto@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmmmm 294F - that's a bit cooler than most toner transfers.  Of course it depends on what toner your printer has. The newer Brother series of printers use abotu 400F toner, but the "normal" toner is usually a bit over 300F. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > If you are showning only 300F at the inlet/outlet I'll bet it gets warmer inside - and it depends on the type of temperature control your lamanitor has.  On my laminator the temperature will go up to around 330F to 340F, then turn off, cool down to around 280F or so, then turn back on to heat up again. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Using a HP P1006 printer (OEM toner) I tend to get a good toner transfer up around 360F or better.  I turn laminator on, allow to heat up to around 370 to 380F, do a quick run thru 4 or 5 times and the toner has transferred pretty good.  If I allow the temperature to get too hot (over 400F?) the traces come out looks sorta "mashed" a bit, not the crisp eadges they should be.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You might check the calibration of the themrometer by boiling a pan of water and checking the temperature.  At sea level this WILL be at 212F.  If you are at 10,000 ft elevation you will need to correct for that as the temperature is lower to boil water.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Keep us informed on your progress - and remember, anything I post is open to correction/comments .
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ken H>
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The thermometer stabilized at 294F. Too cold? Too Hot?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I checked it 2 places on the input side of the rollers.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>