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2010-02-07 by oliverstwists
Can anyone spot any hazards of etching at home in a garage? My choice of etchant would be the HCL H202. I am worried about possible vapors passing into the house and also the effect of corrosion on my car and my metal garage doors. The temperatures in my garage can get as low as -10. Any pointers or cautions would be much appreciated. Thanks.
2010-02-07 by Stefan Trethan
If you keep concentrations of HCl and H2O2 reasonable there will not be a problem. Keep your etchant covered when not in use, but not airtight to avoid pressure buildup. Keep your chemicals, etchant and especially the HCl, in a second container to catch a spill in case of breakage. Note that plastic bottles of HCl will allow small amounts of HCl to pass through the plastic, corroding very closeby metal parts. Put in a second larger container or glass bottle to avoid that. Regarding the temperature, -10 what? Shivers per second? This is an international forum please give a unit or half of the people will misunderstand. ST
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:16 AM, oliverstwists <iloiselle@...> wrote: > Can anyone spot any hazards of etching at home in a garage? My choice of etchant would be the HCL H202. I am worried about possible vapors passing into the house and also the effect of corrosion on my car and my metal garage doors. The temperatures in my garage can get as low as -10. Any pointers or cautions would be much appreciated. > Thanks.
2010-02-07 by Zoran A. Scepanovic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07.Feb.10 7:16, oliverstwists wrote: > Can anyone spot any hazards of etching at home in a garage? My choice of etchant would be the HCL H202. I am worried about possible vapors passing into the house and also the effect of corrosion on my car and my metal garage doors. The temperatures in my garage can get as low as -10. Any pointers or cautions would be much appreciated. > Thanks. - -10 degrees of what kind? - -10 Celsius = 14 Farenheit - -10 Farenheit = -23.3 Celsius - -- Srdacan pozdrav, Zoran A. Scepanovic zastos@... www.zastos.com www.zastos.biz +381 63 609-993 ===== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAktu4pMACgkQeEZQoPqyQm2l3wCcCxRmShpn44xgAidelCXlWM/j YoMAn20KIuuSsyHTZYo2E7Pf2YN+UWsB =fNtM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-02-07 by Brian Lalor
On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Zoran A. Scepanovic wrote:
> - -10 degrees of what kind?
>
> - -10 Celsius = 14 Farenheit
> - -10 Farenheit = -23.3 Celsius
Does it matter? Either way, it's freakin' cold!
--
Brian Lalor / blalor@...
You snooze, you lose
Well I have snost and lost2010-02-07 by oliverstwists
Thanks for you replies. I meant to include the units - I'm operating in Celsius degrees. Could you provide me an idea of what reasonable concentrations of HCL h202 might be? I would be using the low strength peroxide and building boards of no greater than 4" by 4". My worry is that the corrosive fumes from etching and storage will pose a hazard to anyone sleeping in the bedroom above the garage and to any metal, like my car, stored in the garage. Is anyone else in the same predicament as me? --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Brian Lalor <blalor@...> wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Zoran A. Scepanovic wrote: > > > - -10 degrees of what kind? > > > > - -10 Celsius = 14 Farenheit > > - -10 Farenheit = -23.3 Celsius > > Does it matter? Either way, it's freakin' cold! > > -- > Brian Lalor / blalor@... > You snooze, you lose > Well I have snost and lost >
2010-02-07 by Brian Lalor
On Feb 7, 2010, at 11:37 AM, oliverstwists wrote:
> My worry is that the corrosive fumes from etching and storage will pose a hazard to anyone sleeping in the bedroom above the garage and to any metal, like my car, stored in the garage.
>
> Is anyone else in the same predicament as me?
I doubt I'm a model of what anyone *should* be doing, but I'm etching my boards with HCL and H2O2 in my basement. I'm keeping about 6oz (~180ml) of the etchant in a sealed mason jar; I can see lid's getting corroded, and my first batch of etchant stopped etching after about two uses, which I'm attributing to some kind of contamination. Anyway, I'm not concerned about poisoning myself, my fiancée, or my dogs with this setup; I'm pretty careful with how I'm handling this stuff. The first time I did any etching, I did open a window and used a fan to direct any fumes toward the window. I think that was a good thing, but I forgot to do it the 2nd time I made boards.
--
Brian Lalor / blalor@...
Why do the English drink warm beer? The refrigerator is a Lucas.2010-02-07 by awakephd
I share your concerns -- especially since I have a garage full of woodworking and machine tools that I do NOT want to get rusty. I bought a 5-gallon bucket with lid at a big-box hardware store and keep my gallon jug of HCl in it, along with the 1.5 liter jug of used etchant. I store this outside. So far (8 months), no problems. I do all my etching outdoors -- once the etchant is mixed up and used, it does not seem to fume, but the HCl fumes whenever I open the jug, so I don't like to open it inside the garage. As for the cold ... I just etched a couple of boards in around 0-degree-Celcius conditions outdoors. It seemed to etch more slowly than I remember from warmer times, but I nonetheless had good results. "One of these days" I plan to take all the used etchant and make a tank to convert it into CuCl etchant -- need to bubble air through it to re-oxygenate. I might also put a small aquarium heater in at that point. I'm not sure if I'll store it outdoors at that point -- others seem to be able to keep the CuCl indoors without undue problems. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "oliverstwists" <oliverstwists@...> wrote:
> > Thanks for you replies. I meant to include the units - I'm operating in Celsius degrees. > > Could you provide me an idea of what reasonable concentrations of HCL h202 might be? I would be using the low strength peroxide and building boards of no greater than 4" by 4". > > My worry is that the corrosive fumes from etching and storage will pose a hazard to anyone sleeping in the bedroom above the garage and to any metal, like my car, stored in the garage. > > Is anyone else in the same predicament as me? > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Brian Lalor <blalor@> wrote: > > > > On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Zoran A. Scepanovic wrote: > > > > > - -10 degrees of what kind? > > > > > > - -10 Celsius = 14 Farenheit > > > - -10 Farenheit = -23.3 Celsius > > > > Does it matter? Either way, it's freakin' cold! > > > > -- > > Brian Lalor / blalor@ > > You snooze, you lose > > Well I have snost and lost > > >
2010-02-07 by Leon Heller
On 07/02/2010 16:46, Brian Lalor wrote: > On Feb 7, 2010, at 11:37 AM, oliverstwists wrote: > >> My worry is that the corrosive fumes from etching and storage will pose a hazard to anyone sleeping in the bedroom above the garage and to any metal, like my car, stored in the garage. >> >> Is anyone else in the same predicament as me? > > I doubt I'm a model of what anyone *should* be doing, but I'm etching my boards with HCL and H2O2 in my basement. I'm keeping about 6oz (~180ml) of the etchant in a sealed mason jar; I can see lid's getting corroded, and my first batch of etchant stopped etching after about two uses, which I'm attributing to some kind of contamination. Anyway, I'm not concerned about poisoning myself, my fianc\ufffde, or my dogs with this setup; I'm pretty careful with how I'm handling this stuff. The first time I did any etching, I did open a window and used a fan to direct any fumes toward the window. I think that was a good thing, but I forgot to do it the 2nd time I made boards. HCl and H2O2 doesn't keep! Leon -- Leon Heller G1HSM
2010-02-07 by Stefan Trethan
None of us has military decontamination tents in our gardens to do the etching in if that's what you are asking ;-) If you are using the low strength H2O2 (3%) the upper limit of reasonable concentration would be mixing two parts of it straight with one part 30% HCl. This will give a very strong etchant that'll fume a little so ventilation during or after etching is advised, but would not be too crazy. Care must be taken if you user stronger H2O2, then diluting the HCl first is most definitely called for. Storing the etchant makes little sense if you only have low concentration H2O2, it can not be practically used to make CuCl etchant because it contains too much water to allow the necessary repeated addition of fresh H2O2. If you are really worried open the garage door for a couple of minutes after etching, but it's really not a problem in the small quantities we use. ST
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:37 PM, oliverstwists <oliverstwists@...> wrote: > Thanks for you replies. I meant to include the units - I'm operating in Celsius degrees. > > Could you provide me an idea of what reasonable concentrations of HCL h202 might be? I would be using the low strength peroxide and building boards of no greater than 4" by 4". > > My worry is that the corrosive fumes from etching and storage will pose a hazard to anyone sleeping in the bedroom above the garage and to any metal, like my car, stored in the garage. > > Is anyone else in the same predicament as me? >
2010-02-07 by oliverstwists
I hear you on reason for etching outside. When you say CuCl, is the copper chloride etchant the biproduct of the HCL H202 etchant? On an other note, I've made a etching tank out of acrylic plexiglass and bonded the seams with MEK solvent. I've seen tanks like this used for ferric and other etchants. Do you, or anyone know if a plexiglass tank like this could withstand HCL H202 without degrading? --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "awakephd" <a_wake@...> wrote:
> > I share your concerns -- especially since I have a garage full of woodworking and machine tools that I do NOT want to get rusty. I bought a 5-gallon bucket with lid at a big-box hardware store and keep my gallon jug of HCl in it, along with the 1.5 liter jug of used etchant. I store this outside. So far (8 months), no problems. I do all my etching outdoors -- once the etchant is mixed up and used, it does not seem to fume, but the HCl fumes whenever I open the jug, so I don't like to open it inside the garage. > > As for the cold ... I just etched a couple of boards in around 0-degree-Celcius conditions outdoors. It seemed to etch more slowly than I remember from warmer times, but I nonetheless had good results. "One of these days" I plan to take all the used etchant and make a tank to convert it into CuCl etchant -- need to bubble air through it to re-oxygenate. I might also put a small aquarium heater in at that point. I'm not sure if I'll store it outdoors at that point -- others seem to be able to keep the CuCl indoors without undue problems. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "oliverstwists" <oliverstwists@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for you replies. I meant to include the units - I'm operating in Celsius degrees. > > > > Could you provide me an idea of what reasonable concentrations of HCL h202 might be? I would be using the low strength peroxide and building boards of no greater than 4" by 4". > > > > My worry is that the corrosive fumes from etching and storage will pose a hazard to anyone sleeping in the bedroom above the garage and to any metal, like my car, stored in the garage. > > > > Is anyone else in the same predicament as me? > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Brian Lalor <blalor@> wrote: > > > > > > On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Zoran A. Scepanovic wrote: > > > > > > > - -10 degrees of what kind? > > > > > > > > - -10 Celsius = 14 Farenheit > > > > - -10 Farenheit = -23.3 Celsius > > > > > > Does it matter? Either way, it's freakin' cold! > > > > > > -- > > > Brian Lalor / blalor@ > > > You snooze, you lose > > > Well I have snost and lost > > > > > >
2010-02-07 by Zoran A. Scepanovic
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07.Feb.10 17:11, Brian Lalor wrote: > On Feb 7, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Zoran A. Scepanovic wrote: > >> - -10 degrees of what kind? >> >> - -10 Celsius = 14 Farenheit >> - -10 Farenheit = -23.3 Celsius > > Does it matter? Either way, it's freakin' cold! > > -- > Brian Lalor / blalor@... > You snooze, you lose > Well I have snost and lost Nope - -10F is COLDER than -10C :D - -- Srdacan pozdrav, Zoran A. Scepanovic zastos@... www.zastos.com www.zastos.biz +381 63 609-993 ===== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAktu+R0ACgkQeEZQoPqyQm08CgCgv4nk+zb33k6BcWBhQWn/5YpV 1NQAn3/XGGVb/KffzCIK1NzBBPizK160 =kqtN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-02-07 by Stefan Trethan
If you etch enough boards and keep adding HCL and H2O2 you'll eventually get CuCl. At some point enough CuCl is present so you don't have to add new H2O2 for every board, instead you only need to regenerate it from time to time. But it's a lot of boards to get there. Dunno about the acrylic long term, a few months it will be OK, don't have experience with it longer than that, I use glass. ST
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 6:19 PM, oliverstwists <oliverstwists@...> wrote: > I hear you on reason for etching outside. > When you say CuCl, is the copper chloride etchant the biproduct of the HCL H202 etchant? > > On an other note, I've made a etching tank out of acrylic plexiglass and bonded the seams with MEK solvent. I've seen tanks like this used for ferric and other etchants. > > Do you, or anyone know if a plexiglass tank like this could withstand HCL H202 without degrading? >
2010-02-07 by oliverstwists
Thanks for the advice Stefan. Great tutorial on direct printing by the way. I am so tired of TT. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> > If you etch enough boards and keep adding HCL and H2O2 you'll > eventually get CuCl. At some point enough CuCl is present so you don't > have to add new H2O2 for every board, instead you only need to > regenerate it from time to time. But it's a lot of boards to get > there. > > > Dunno about the acrylic long term, a few months it will be OK, don't > have experience with it longer than that, I use glass. > > ST > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 6:19 PM, oliverstwists <oliverstwists@...> wrote: > > I hear you on reason for etching outside. > > When you say CuCl, is the copper chloride etchant the biproduct of the HCL H202 etchant? > > > > On an other note, I've made a etching tank out of acrylic plexiglass and bonded the seams with MEK solvent. I've seen tanks like this used for ferric and other etchants. > > > > Do you, or anyone know if a plexiglass tank like this could withstand HCL H202 without degrading? > > >
2010-02-07 by Brian Lalor
It doesn't? Crap. I thought this was a gateway to CuCl. What makes it lose effectiveness? -- Brian Lalor blalor@... On Feb 7, 2010, at 12:03 PM, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote: > HCl and H2O2 doesn't keep!
2010-02-07 by Stefan Trethan
The H2O2 dissipates into thin air in storage, literally. The HCl stays of course, but is used up as copper is etched and CuCl is formed (the chlorine is taken from the HCl). That's why you want to add no more H2O2 than what is necessary to etch the board and regenerate all the CuCl, the rest is wasted. Think of it the following way, the more CuCl you have the more copper you can etch without needing to regenerate. At first you need to regenerate all the time during etching, but eventually you can do a few boards before it needs another go. ST
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Brian Lalor <blalor@...> wrote: > It doesn't? Crap. I thought this was a gateway to CuCl. What makes > it lose effectiveness?
2010-02-07 by Leon Heller
On 07/02/2010 18:40, Brian Lalor wrote: > It doesn't? Crap. I thought this was a gateway to CuCl. What makes > it lose effectiveness? > > -- > Brian Lalor > blalor@... > > On Feb 7, 2010, at 12:03 PM, Leon Heller<leon355@...> wrote: > >> HCl and H2O2 doesn't keep! The H2O2 is used up. You need both. If you use concentrated HCl and H2O2 you can add more H2O2 to regenerate the solution, and you will gradually get more CuCl2. Leon -- Leon Heller G1HSM
2010-02-07 by Newell S Jensen
*** None of us has military decontamination tents in our gardens to do the etching in if that's what you are asking ;-) If you are using the low strength H2O2 (3%) the upper limit of reasonable concentration would be mixing two parts of it straight with one part 30% HCl. This will give a very strong etchant that'll fume a little so ventilation during or after etching is advised, but would not be too crazy. Care must be taken if you user stronger H2O2, then diluting the HCl first is most definitely called for. Storing the etchant makes little sense if you only have low concentration H2O2, it can not be practically used to make CuCl etchant because it contains too much water to allow the necessary repeated addition of fresh H2O2. *** So what concentration of H202 do we need if we are interested in making CuCl etchant then? Thanks, -- Newell
2010-02-08 by Jack@coats.org
Newell, I understand 35% H2O2 is the norm for food grade or use in hair salons for bleaching hair. You might go by your local neightborhood hair dresser to see if you could purchase a bit. Years ago my Dad worked at a plant where they had a dept that did etching and plating. They used H2O2 that was almost reagent grade, and they got it by the barrel (very dangerous if you get it even a little contaminated in sealed containers). ><> ... Jack Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23
2010-02-08 by oliverstwists
Does anyone know if storing used HCl H202 in a garage is asking for trouble? How long is the reaction and does it still fume? --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jack@..." <jack@...> wrote:
> > Newell, > > I understand 35% H2O2 is the norm for food grade or use in hair salons > for bleaching hair. > You might go by your local neightborhood hair dresser to see if you > could purchase a bit. > > Years ago my Dad worked at a plant where they had a dept that did > etching and plating. > They used H2O2 that was almost reagent grade, and they got it by the > barrel (very dangerous > if you get it even a little contaminated in sealed containers). > > ><> ... Jack > Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23 >
2010-02-08 by Leon Heller
On 08/02/2010 14:57, oliverstwists wrote: > Does anyone know if storing used HCl H202 in a garage is asking for trouble? How long is the reaction and does it still fume? As it contains HCl it will keep emitting fumes unless the container is well sealed. Leon