Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

In my PCB adventures, I finally got a good transfer. I should have
followed my own rule: "Follow the manufacturer's directions until you
really know what you're doing, and probably after that, too." I
deviated, though. To help someone in a similar level of novicehood, I
detail what didn't work. I then have a question or two.

First, I used Pulsar Toner Transfer Paper, printed on my HP P1005. I ran
it through the GBC H-64 laminator twice, per Pulsar's recommendation. In
the water bath to lift off the TTP paper, the traces floated away, too.
I was told here that I didn't use enough laminator passes. All
subsequent trials used 8-10 passes. This trial went off to the Acetone
bath. (About the only thing that worked perfectly for me.)

Next, still with TTP, I followed a recommendation here to just place the
Green TRF foil on the board and smooth it out rather than folding over
the end of the board. That was a disaster! The Green TRF foil wrapped
itself around the top roller on the very first pass. Don't try this at
home. kids! Oh, well. It's not the first time I've had to diassemble new
equipment to fix it. Back to the acetone bath.

Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.
Acetone bath again! First question: I now have all this surplus HP
Presentation Paper. Will it work as good, light photo or brochure paper
on an inkjet printer? Are there any other uses for the HP paper? (I
don't have a color laser.)

Finally, I used Pulsar TTP with Green TRF, following Pulsar's directions
except for 8-10 passes through the laminator plus two passes for the
Green TRF. It worked! There are a couple spots that the Green TRF
missed; I'll try a Sharpie on them before etching.

I intend to try Pulsar's recommended "Direct Etch" method for etching.
Basically, it entails putting Ferric Chloride on a sponge and rubbing
off the copper as if cleaning a tabletop. No etching tank!

Questions to hopefully avoid more errors: Has anyone tried the Direct
Etch method? Does it work? Any hints? This, my first board, has no
ground plane and will need a lot of copper removed. Any hints on that?
The second board I have in mind does have a ground plane, leading to
minimal copper removal. Can anyone comment on which board style (minimum
copper or maximum copper) is likely to give better results? Any
difference in technique?

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, the white film on top of the toner won't hurt a thing. As long as there isn't any paper between the traces, just go ahead and etch.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jimofc300" <jim@...> wrote:

> 
> Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
> of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
> white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
> water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.
>

"jimofc300" <jim@...> writes:
> I was told here that I didn't use enough laminator passes.

Not enough heat.  I run my laminator about 20 degrees hotter than the
default.

> Questions to hopefully avoid more errors: Has anyone tried the Direct
> Etch method?

Yes, and it works just fine.  What I did was half-fill a large
container with hot tap water, and put my FeCl container in it when I
started the lamination.  By the time it was time to etch, the FeCl was
warm/hot without being too hot, and between that and the sponge it
took 45 seconds to etch 0.5 oz copper.

I *do* use a tray with this technique, though.  Pour the FeCl into the
tray, hold the pcb over it, and dip the sponge into the etchant every
once in a while to freshen it.  For the tray, I used half of a gallon
milk jug (the left half, with the handle and spout still intact so you
can use it to pour the etchant back into the bottle).

in fact the white film may well block some/all pinholes. Definately not bad unless it's spanning traces

PG

---- Sent using a phone. 'Scuse the typos etc.

-original message-
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Finally! A good toner transfer. On to etch.
From: "awakephd" <a_wake@...>
Date: 15/02/2010 12:41

Jim, the white film on top of the toner won't hurt a thing. As long as there isn't any paper between the traces, just go ahead and etch.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jimofc300" <jim@...> wrote:

> 
> Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
> of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
> white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
> water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.
>

On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 01:26:27 -0000, you wrote:

>
>Hi,
<snip>

>
>Next, still with TTP, I followed a recommendation here to just place the
>Green TRF foil on the board and smooth it out rather than folding over
>the end of the board. That was a disaster! The Green TRF foil wrapped
>itself around the top roller on the very first pass. Don't try this at
>home. kids! Oh, well. It's not the first time I've had to diassemble new
>equipment to fix it. Back to the acetone bath.

I suggested that.  I may have neglected to say that I rubbed the foil
rather aggressively to smooth it out on the board.  That has worked
for me.

What did not work was folding the foil over, since if it wrinkles, it
tends to destroy the traces under the wrinkle.

Not sure why it didn't work for you, but if you get good results and
no wrinkling, then keep to it.  I'll keep on not folding the foil
under as long as it keeps working for me.

Harvey

<snip>

>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>

I have tried direct etch once or twice, and it seems to me that it works 
fine, unless you've had to touch-up the transfer.  It seems to rub the 
Sharpie ink off.

Kerry

jimofc300 wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In my PCB adventures, I finally got a good transfer. I should have
> followed my own rule: "Follow the manufacturer's directions until you
> really know what you're doing, and probably after that, too." I
> deviated, though. To help someone in a similar level of novicehood, I
> detail what didn't work. I then have a question or two.
>
> First, I used Pulsar Toner Transfer Paper, printed on my HP P1005. I ran
> it through the GBC H-64 laminator twice, per Pulsar's recommendation. In
> the water bath to lift off the TTP paper, the traces floated away, too.
> I was told here that I didn't use enough laminator passes. All
> subsequent trials used 8-10 passes. This trial went off to the Acetone
> bath. (About the only thing that worked perfectly for me.)
>
> Next, still with TTP, I followed a recommendation here to just place the
> Green TRF foil on the board and smooth it out rather than folding over
> the end of the board. That was a disaster! The Green TRF foil wrapped
> itself around the top roller on the very first pass. Don't try this at
> home. kids! Oh, well. It's not the first time I've had to diassemble new
> equipment to fix it. Back to the acetone bath.
>
> Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
> of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
> white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
> water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.
> Acetone bath again! First question: I now have all this surplus HP
> Presentation Paper. Will it work as good, light photo or brochure paper
> on an inkjet printer? Are there any other uses for the HP paper? (I
> don't have a color laser.)
>
> Finally, I used Pulsar TTP with Green TRF, following Pulsar's directions
> except for 8-10 passes through the laminator plus two passes for the
> Green TRF. It worked! There are a couple spots that the Green TRF
> missed; I'll try a Sharpie on them before etching.
>
> I intend to try Pulsar's recommended "Direct Etch" method for etching.
> Basically, it entails putting Ferric Chloride on a sponge and rubbing
> off the copper as if cleaning a tabletop. No etching tank!
>
> Questions to hopefully avoid more errors: Has anyone tried the Direct
> Etch method? Does it work? Any hints? This, my first board, has no
> ground plane and will need a lot of copper removed. Any hints on that?
> The second board I have in mind does have a ground plane, leading to
> minimal copper removal. Can anyone comment on which board style (minimum
> copper or maximum copper) is likely to give better results? Any
> difference in technique?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>

As others have said, the white doesn't hurt anything as long as it's not over the copper. A bit of rubbing can remove any while that's over the copper.

Yep, more passes, or hotter.  Not sure where Pulsar got that 2 passes, but H-65 just isn't hot enough stock wiring. I have tried the green foil, but not success.... don't really need it with a good transfer using the HP presentation paper or the Pulsar Toner Transfer paper.  That stuff is GOOD!!

Oh, on the direct etch - I just use a small pan with about 2 oz of HCl and H2O2 mixed. Seems like I tried direct etch once - but didn't like it much.

Ken H>

You could try what I do for UV film - tape the leading edge of the TRF
to a piece of paper (carrier), so the paper holds the front edge flat
and you can hold the back edge, feeding the pcb between the TRF and
the paper.  If you pull the two leading corners apart when you tape
them, or tape the whole leading edge, that should prevent wrinkles.

Hi again,

 

Responding to part of my own question... 

 

Perhaps I rushed to judgment too quickly on HP Presentation Paper. I may
try it again for PCBs later. In the meantime, I did a few experiments
with my HP6980 DeskJet printer for other uses for it. If you've bought
HP Presentation Paper but stopped using it for PCBs or don't do enough
PCBs to use up a whole package, this is for you.

 

HP Presentation paper makes a nice, lightweight photo paper. It does
brochures well, too. Unlike my initial fears, the ink doesn't rub off,
as I've seen with another laser-only paper. BUT, you must force the
printer to print to it as Plain Paper, NOT photo paper or "Automatic."
On Automatic, my 6980-possibly because of the paper's glossy
surface-thinks it's photo paper and prints accordingly, with low
contrast. So, select printer properties when printing and choose "Plain
Paper." This works.

 

Jim

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Barnes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 5:31 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Finally! A good toner transfer. On to etch.

Hi,

====================<snip>=================

Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.
Acetone bath again! First question: I now have all this surplus HP
Presentation Paper. Will it work as good, light photo or brochure paper
on an inkjet printer? Are there any other uses for the HP paper? (I
don't have a color laser.)

================<snip>==============
Jim





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like you, I often don't have a ground plane. I've found that 'direct etch' works well only with 1/2 oz copper. 

With 1 oz copper you are looking at 8 to 10 minutes of rubbing to clear an index card sized board on one side. That's still bit faster than an agitated bath, but its also a whole lot more work.

I'd rather throw the board in a bath, leave and come back in 10 minutes than stand there and rub continuously for 10 minutes.

Regards,
Royce


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jimofc300" <jim@...> wrote:

>
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In my PCB adventures, I finally got a good transfer. I should have
> followed my own rule: "Follow the manufacturer's directions until you
> really know what you're doing, and probably after that, too." I
> deviated, though. To help someone in a similar level of novicehood, I
> detail what didn't work. I then have a question or two.
> 
> First, I used Pulsar Toner Transfer Paper, printed on my HP P1005. I ran
> it through the GBC H-64 laminator twice, per Pulsar's recommendation. In
> the water bath to lift off the TTP paper, the traces floated away, too.
> I was told here that I didn't use enough laminator passes. All
> subsequent trials used 8-10 passes. This trial went off to the Acetone
> bath. (About the only thing that worked perfectly for me.)
> 
> Next, still with TTP, I followed a recommendation here to just place the
> Green TRF foil on the board and smooth it out rather than folding over
> the end of the board. That was a disaster! The Green TRF foil wrapped
> itself around the top roller on the very first pass. Don't try this at
> home. kids! Oh, well. It's not the first time I've had to diassemble new
> equipment to fix it. Back to the acetone bath.
> 
> Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
> of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
> white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
> water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.
> Acetone bath again! First question: I now have all this surplus HP
> Presentation Paper. Will it work as good, light photo or brochure paper
> on an inkjet printer? Are there any other uses for the HP paper? (I
> don't have a color laser.)
> 
> Finally, I used Pulsar TTP with Green TRF, following Pulsar's directions
> except for 8-10 passes through the laminator plus two passes for the
> Green TRF. It worked! There are a couple spots that the Green TRF
> missed; I'll try a Sharpie on them before etching.
> 
> I intend to try Pulsar's recommended "Direct Etch" method for etching.
> Basically, it entails putting Ferric Chloride on a sponge and rubbing
> off the copper as if cleaning a tabletop. No etching tank!
> 
> Questions to hopefully avoid more errors: Has anyone tried the Direct
> Etch method? Does it work? Any hints? This, my first board, has no
> ground plane and will need a lot of copper removed. Any hints on that?
> The second board I have in mind does have a ground plane, leading to
> minimal copper removal. Can anyone comment on which board style (minimum
> copper or maximum copper) is likely to give better results? Any
> difference in technique?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jim
>

It can be convenient to bath etch until most of the copper is gone, then 
direct etch (like with a Q-Tip) the parts that are left.

Kerry


roycepipkins wrote:

> Like you, I often don't have a ground plane. I've found that 'direct etch' works well only with 1/2 oz copper. 
>
> With 1 oz copper you are looking at 8 to 10 minutes of rubbing to clear an index card sized board on one side. That's still bit faster than an agitated bath, but its also a whole lot more work.
>
> I'd rather throw the board in a bath, leave and come back in 10 minutes than stand there and rub continuously for 10 minutes.
>
> Regards,
> Royce
>
>   
>

> Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
> of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
> white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
> water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.

Jim,

If you want to remove the grey haze from your toner transfer, try
a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. Most supermarkets carry them. A few light
rubs with a wetted Magic Eraser removes it and doesn't damage the toner.

Baxter

The fibers dont matter i just leave them there!




________________________________

From: bebx2000 <bebx2000@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 3:57:49 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Finally! A good toner transfer _Remove white residue.

  


> Then I had the hair-brained idea of using HP Presentation Paper instead
> of Pulsar TTP. Maybe others succeeded with it, but I wound up with a
> white film on top of the toner which wouldn't come off with rubbing or
> water. Apparently, some of the paper fibers stuck to the toner image.

Jim,

If you want to remove the grey haze from your toner transfer, try
a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. Most supermarkets carry them. A few light
rubs with a wetted Magic Eraser removes it and doesn't damage the toner.

Baxter





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good idea there - that would ease removal of paper from the copper also? the HP paper releases from copper pretty good, but sometimes still requires a small amount of rubbing - that might make it easier.

I'll try that - 

Ken H.

> If you want to remove the grey haze from your toner transfer, try
> a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. Most supermarkets carry them. A few light
> rubs with a wetted Magic Eraser removes it and doesn't damage the toner.
> 
> Baxter
>