Homebrew PCBs

Hello everybody,

Just this weekend I finished up my CNC drill robot and it is happily drilling away. After checking positional accuracy and axis alignment I am quite satisfied. Deviation on X and Y axis are 150 micrometre over a distance of 20cm. Angular distortion of the X and Y axis on a 20 by 20cm square the distortion is about 300 micrometres.

Pretty good for generic stainless steel threaded rods. 

But now I have a problem with my transparencies, they seem warped, the holes on the transparencies do not register on my predrilled PCB. This would not be a problem if the variation was uniform. But no such luck...

I have printed out an hole grid of 1 centimetre. It seems to deviate a few 100 microns positive in some spots, but other spots it is about a few 100 microns negative. This is mostly on the long direction of one A4 sheet. The short direction is more or less the same warping and it seems uniform.

Does anybody have any idea on how to proceed? Does anybody use photo exposure combined with CNC drilling? What printer do you use to print out the PCB layout? What do you print out on? What kind of transparencies? Do you need to compensate for any warping of the printout? I am currently using a canon laser printer MF3110.

I have been thinking about a home-brew solution. Constructing a raster scanner with a blue-ray laser and directly expose the PCB. Takes some work but the resolution seems very good (I have seen it pass by on one occasion).

Any help is greatly appreciated.

boombox666 pravi:
> Hello everybody,
>
> Just this weekend I finished up my CNC drill robot and it is happily drilling away. After checking positional accuracy and axis alignment I am quite satisfied. Deviation on X and Y axis are 150 micrometre over a distance of 20cm. Angular distortion of the X and Y axis on a 20 by 20cm square the distortion is about 300 micrometres.
>
> Pretty good for generic stainless steel threaded rods. 
>
> But now I have a problem with my transparencies, they seem warped, the holes on the transparencies do not register on my predrilled PCB. This would not be a problem if the variation was uniform. But no such luck...
>
> I have printed out an hole grid of 1 centimetre. It seems to deviate a few 100 microns positive in some spots, but other spots it is about a few 100 microns negative. This is mostly on the long direction of one A4 sheet. The short direction is more or less the same warping and it seems uniform.
>
> Does anybody have any idea on how to proceed? Does anybody use photo exposure combined with CNC drilling? What printer do you use to print out the PCB layout? What do you print out on? What kind of transparencies? Do you need to compensate for any warping of the printout? I am currently using a canon laser printer MF3110.
>
> I have been thinking about a home-brew solution. Constructing a raster scanner with a blue-ray laser and directly expose the PCB. Takes some work but the resolution seems very good (I have seen it pass by on one occasion).
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>   
I have same problem.
Laserjet 1020 printer. The output in X is ok but on Y axis is terrible. 
Near all time is shorter by aprox 0.5% but two same prints doesn't gave 
same output. Ie if I print two transparencyes they does not fit exactly. 
I think the paper feed is not good. When printer grab paper they 'wigle' 
left and right little.
I didn't find the best solution yet for now I use this procedure: (does 
have good result but it's slow)

When printing I strech output to 100.5% as this is average shrinkage
After toner transfer and etching I fit etched board into CNC.
With help of webcam fited onto machine I'm measure position's of few holes
and with custom program I stretch/shrink/unrotate excelon coordinate 
from PCB program to fit onto 'wraped' board.
this gave pretty good result as all holes are drilled under 4 mils 
error. (0.1mm)

Slavko.

p.s.
I check HP1018 and HP1020 printer and both have bad output (skewed 
image). On my brother HL2030 the output measurment is perfect but that 
printer uses different toner and I had unsucesful toner transfer from 
that printer. (I tryed many papers and laminator temperature up to 
200degres C without good result)

On 21/06/2010 16:53, boombox666 wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> Just this weekend I finished up my CNC drill robot and it is happily drilling away. After checking positional accuracy and axis alignment I am quite satisfied. Deviation on X and Y axis are 150 micrometre over a distance of 20cm. Angular distortion of the X and Y axis on a 20 by 20cm square the distortion is about 300 micrometres.
>
> Pretty good for generic stainless steel threaded rods.
>
> But now I have a problem with my transparencies, they seem warped, the holes on the transparencies do not register on my predrilled PCB. This would not be a problem if the variation was uniform. But no such luck...
>
> I have printed out an hole grid of 1 centimetre. It seems to deviate a few 100 microns positive in some spots, but other spots it is about a few 100 microns negative. This is mostly on the long direction of one A4 sheet. The short direction is more or less the same warping and it seems uniform.
>
> Does anybody have any idea on how to proceed? Does anybody use photo exposure combined with CNC drilling? What printer do you use to print out the PCB layout? What do you print out on? What kind of transparencies? Do you need to compensate for any warping of the printout? I am currently using a canon laser printer MF3110.
>
> I have been thinking about a home-brew solution. Constructing a raster scanner with a blue-ray laser and directly expose the PCB. Takes some work but the resolution seems very good (I have seen it pass by on one occasion).
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated.

I get very accurate transparencies with a cheap HP inkjet printer. Did 
you use a laser printer? They aren't very accurate.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Does the widening only happen near the side of the paper that feeds in?

I'd be curious if you got better results by moving the pattern to the bottom
edge of the page, so the paper has plenty of time to be fully engaged in the
transfer roller before your pattern is printed.

-Andrew

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...>wrote:

> I have same problem.
> Laserjet 1020 printer. The output in X is ok but on Y axis is terrible.
> Near all time is shorter by aprox 0.5% but two same prints doesn't gave
> same output. Ie if I print two transparencyes they does not fit exactly.
> I think the paper feed is not good. When printer grab paper they 'wigle'
> left and right little.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm print grid over entire page.
The error is randomly spread over entire lenght of paper.
..and near same amount with print on thick or thin paper.
.. just seems that paper shrink. When I print onto kimoto foil (looks 
like semitransparent plastic) the random error is stil present but 0.5% 
shrinkage drop to under 0.1%. but random error (wigling) stay near same 
in both. I think that transport gear's teeth are uneven and that cause 
that's problems.
Of course when printing text nobody will ever see that here is some 
missalignment. But long row of connector can be out of order just 
enought to prevent conector to be installed.



Andrew Villeneuve pravi:

> Does the widening only happen near the side of the paper that feeds in?
>
> I'd be curious if you got better results by moving the pattern to the bottom
> edge of the page, so the paper has plenty of time to be fully engaged in the
> transfer roller before your pattern is printed.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...>wrote:
>
>   
>> I have same problem.
>> Laserjet 1020 printer. The output in X is ok but on Y axis is terrible.
>> Near all time is shorter by aprox 0.5% but two same prints doesn't gave
>> same output. Ie if I print two transparencyes they does not fit exactly.
>> I think the paper feed is not good. When printer grab paper they 'wigle'
>> left and right little.
>>
>>     
>

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
>
>
> I get very accurate transparencies with a cheap HP inkjet printer. Did
> you use a laser printer? They aren't very accurate.
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>
>
I have an HP Photosmart 8250.  I haven't made any transparencies for PCB's
but I've printed a lot for my brothers silk screening business.  They come
out extremely black and very accurate.  Our laser printers here at work
can't even come close to 1/4 the coverage we get with an inket printer and
inkjet transparencies.  I made a big mess one time by putting the
transparencies upside down.  They printed perfectly until I touched it, took
a few days to wash off.

-- 
Erik L. Knise
Pacific Shipping Company
Seattle, WA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Andrew,

I have tried some positions on the transparencies. 

Seems that the edges are the most inaccurate. The centre portion of the sheet is the most accurate. But still some misalignment. But it seems a bit constant now. I get the idea that the warping is also dependent on the amount of toner in the area. 

I use a large hole PCB with lots of holes in it and the inaccuracy is a bit less then with just the 1cm hole grid.

I have done some other tests, like printing out an empty sheet and then printing on it. And comparing it, maybe the warping is due to the plastic shrinking due to the heat. But this is not the case, they are identical.

Another test I tried is comparing it with ordinary paper. The alignment is much better but i can only verify this while looking trough the holes. Need to do some further tests and buy some special paper a lot of people use instead of transparencies (do not know the name in english). 

Thank you for the suggestions.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Villeneuve <andrewmv@...> wrote:

>
> Does the widening only happen near the side of the paper that feeds in?
> 
> I'd be curious if you got better results by moving the pattern to the bottom
> edge of the page, so the paper has plenty of time to be fully engaged in the
> transfer roller before your pattern is printed.
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...>wrote:
> 
> > I have same problem.
> > Laserjet 1020 printer. The output in X is ok but on Y axis is terrible.
> > Near all time is shorter by aprox 0.5% but two same prints doesn't gave
> > same output. Ie if I print two transparencyes they does not fit exactly.
> > I think the paper feed is not good. When printer grab paper they 'wigle'
> > left and right little.
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Dear Leon,

What kind of accuracy do you get? What printer do you use? On what paper? How do you deal with transparency of the inkjet ink? What resolution are you getting?

If it really brings better results. Inkjet printers are not that expensive anymore, so I might buy one.

Thank you for the info.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:

>
> On 21/06/2010 16:53, boombox666 wrote:
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> >
> > Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> I get very accurate transparencies with a cheap HP inkjet printer. Did 
> you use a laser printer? They aren't very accurate.
> 
> Leon
> -- 
> Leon Heller
> G1HSM
>

Boobbox666, since you are asking for suggestions, this comes to mind. You might want to check on what material the transparency is made of. You may want to know if it will absorb moisture.
If it will, this could be your problem as it will shrink when the moisture content is reduced. I have seen this happen with 
plain paper and other materials. You might try running it through the printer as a blank page then print the artwork right after that. Good luck!

Roger

On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:00:45 +0200, you wrote:

>I'm print grid over entire page.
>The error is randomly spread over entire lenght of paper.
>..and near same amount with print on thick or thin paper.
>.. just seems that paper shrink. When I print onto kimoto foil (looks 
>like semitransparent plastic) the random error is stil present but 0.5% 
>shrinkage drop to under 0.1%. but random error (wigling) stay near same 
>in both. I think that transport gear's teeth are uneven and that cause 
>that's problems.
>Of course when printing text nobody will ever see that here is some 
>missalignment. But long row of connector can be out of order just 
>enought to prevent conector to be installed.
>
>
>
>Andrew Villeneuve pravi:
>>
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do you
have every stage of the print stream set to 100%. In the
past I have goofed and had "fit to page" enabled in either
the board software or Windows printer driver configuration 
and gotten similar results. This can easily be hidden if one dimension
of the board is close to one of the paper dimensions.

May also be dirty/glazed drive rollers in the printer.

Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, kabowers@... wrote:
>
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:00:45 +0200, you wrote:
> 
> I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do you
> have every stage of the print stream set to 100%. In the
> past I have goofed and had "fit to page" enabled in either
> the board software or Windows printer driver configuration 
> and gotten similar results. This can easily be hidden if one dimension
> of the board is close to one of the paper dimensions.
> 
> May also be dirty/glazed drive rollers in the printer.
> 
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>

There are no stupid questions :-). 

But yes, in eagle CAD (the program I use for PCB design) everything is setup at 1 to 1 output. Checked and checked again in the printer driver.

Dear Roger,

I have no idea what material is used for the transparencies. Some kind of high temperature plastic that is for sure as the sheets are quite hot when they exit the printer.

I have tried printing nothing to one sheet, and comparing the printout to a fresh one. They are exactly the same. No difference that I can see with a 10X magnifying glass.

I might try another material that somehow prints better. I have tried ordinary paper, and it seems to have somewhat better alignment. Why, I do not know.

I am still a bit perplexed why "real" PCB artwork comes out more accurate then a simple grid of 1 centimetre. 

Thanks for the suggestions.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pr0pert" <propert@...> wrote:

>
> Boobbox666, since you are asking for suggestions, this comes to mind. You might want to check on what material the transparency is made of. You may want to know if it will absorb moisture.
> If it will, this could be your problem as it will shrink when the moisture content is reduced. I have seen this happen with 
> plain paper and other materials. You might try running it through the printer as a blank page then print the artwork right after that. Good luck!
> 
> Roger
>

kabowers@... pravi:
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:00:45 +0200, you wrote:
>
>   
>> I'm print grid over entire page.
>> The error is randomly spread over entire lenght of paper.
>> ..and near same amount with print on thick or thin paper.
>> .. just seems that paper shrink. When I print onto kimoto foil (looks 
>> like semitransparent plastic) the random error is stil present but 0.5% 
>> shrinkage drop to under 0.1%. but random error (wigling) stay near same 
>> in both. I think that transport gear's teeth are uneven and that cause 
>> that's problems.
>> Of course when printing text nobody will ever see that here is some 
>> missalignment. But long row of connector can be out of order just 
>> enought to prevent conector to be installed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Villeneuve pravi:
>>     
> I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do you
> have every stage of the print stream set to 100%. In the
> past I have goofed and had "fit to page" enabled in either
> the board software or Windows printer driver configuration 
> and gotten similar results. This can easily be hidden if one dimension
> of the board is close to one of the paper dimensions.
>
> May also be dirty/glazed drive rollers in the printer.
>
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>
>   
All are set to 100%
The 0.5% shrinkage is probably caused by moisture in paper. But the 
nonconsistent error can't be result of moisture.
As I already say I print grid (10x10mm squares) onto paper and measure 
each axis.
The X (width) has consistent error of about 0.5%
The Y is not consistent! ie
row 1 is 0.3%
row 2 is 0.5%
row 3 is 0.6%
row 4 is 0.5%
row 5 is 0.3%
and so on. The walues are random but way (increasing / decreasing) seems 
periodic. So I think the gears can be problem.

On 21/06/2010 19:21, boombox666 wrote:
> Dear Leon,
>
> What kind of accuracy do you get? What printer do you use? On what paper? How do you deal with transparency of the inkjet ink? What resolution are you getting?
>
> If it really brings better results. Inkjet printers are not that expensive anymore, so I might buy one.


I use an HP 5940 DeskJet (it cost me about \ufffd60 five years ago) with Mega 
Electronics JetStar Premium film. Resolution is 1200 dpi.

I'd never go back to a laser printer. I don't know what accuracy I get, 
but I've never had a problem with 0.5 mm spacing QFPs and things like 
those tiny Hirose connectors.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Hello...

I'm make PCB with toner transfer quite long. It work's so well...
And I can make PCB for small QFP with 0.8 or 0.5mm grid without problems.
I didn't know that my printer has bad output at all.
But when I go to drill my board with CNC (was drilled by hand) then I 
notice that problem as all holes isn't drilled in centre.
I blame CNC (homemade) 1'st for inacurracy but came out that CNC is 
accurate but not the printer.

Then I just put commercialy made film to my printout and see difference 
easy and goes to investigate. BAD bad Bad printer. And not just one. !

Slavko.

Not an uncommon problem.  Registration on the cheaper laser printers can 
be terrible.  Find some fine graph paper on the net and print two 
pages.  Hold them one on top of the other in front of a light source.  
If you cannot make the lines line up, you may need to find a new laser.

If that's the case, copy the graph paper on a thumb drive and start 
checking out printers.



On 06/21/2010 10:53 AM, boombox666 wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> Just this weekend I finished up my CNC drill robot and it is happily drilling away. After checking positional accuracy and axis alignment I am quite satisfied. Deviation on X and Y axis are 150 micrometre over a distance of 20cm. Angular distortion of the X and Y axis on a 20 by 20cm square the distortion is about 300 micrometres.
>
> Pretty good for generic stainless steel threaded rods.
>
> But now I have a problem with my transparencies, they seem warped, the holes on the transparencies do not register on my predrilled PCB. This would not be a problem if the variation was uniform. But no such luck...
>
> I have printed out an hole grid of 1 centimetre. It seems to deviate a few 100 microns positive in some spots, but other spots it is about a few 100 microns negative. This is mostly on the long direction of one A4 sheet. The short direction is more or less the same warping and it seems uniform.
>
> Does anybody have any idea on how to proceed? Does anybody use photo exposure combined with CNC drilling? What printer do you use to print out the PCB layout? What do you print out on? What kind of transparencies? Do you need to compensate for any warping of the printout? I am currently using a canon laser printer MF3110.
>
> I have been thinking about a home-brew solution. Constructing a raster scanner with a blue-ray laser and directly expose the PCB. Takes some work but the resolution seems very good (I have seen it pass by on one occasion).
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>    


-- 
Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution.
Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

    --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803

There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
  -- Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Use a plotter, and have phototools made using a bromide camera.

On 21/6/2010, "boombox666" <boombox666@...> wrote:

>Hello everybody,
>
>Just this weekend I finished up my CNC drill robot and it is happily drilling away. After checking positional accuracy and axis alignment I am quite satisfied. Deviation on X and Y axis are 150 micrometre over a distance of 20cm. Angular distortion of the X and Y axis on a 20 by 20cm square the distortion is about 300 micrometres.
>
>Pretty good for generic stainless steel threaded rods.
>
>But now I have a problem with my transparencies, they seem warped, the holes on the transparencies do not register on my predrilled PCB. This would not be a problem if the variation was uniform. But no such luck...
>
>I have printed out an hole grid of 1 centimetre. It seems to deviate a few 100 microns positive in some spots, but other spots it is about a few 100 microns negative. This is mostly on the long direction of one A4 sheet. The short direction is more or less the same warping and it seems uniform.
>
>Does anybody have any idea on how to proceed? Does anybody use photo exposure combined with CNC drilling? What printer do you use to print out the PCB layout? What do you print out on? What kind of transparencies? Do you need to compensate for any warping of the printout? I am currently using a canon laser printer MF3110.
>
>I have been thinking about a home-brew solution. Constructing a raster scanner with a blue-ray laser and directly expose the PCB. Takes some work but the resolution seems very good (I have seen it pass by on one occasion).
>
>Any help is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Dale J. Chatham pravi:
> Not an uncommon problem.  Registration on the cheaper laser printers can 
> be terrible.  Find some fine graph paper on the net and print two 
> pages.  Hold them one on top of the other in front of a light source.  
> If you cannot make the lines line up, you may need to find a new laser.
>
> If that's the case, copy the graph paper on a thumb drive and start 
> checking out printers.
>
>   
Sadly but true.
I test aprox 10 printers and only HL2030 has correct output. But toner 
isn't suitable for toner transfer....  :-(

Slavko.

Frank Collingwood pravi:
> Use a plotter, and have phototools made using a bromide camera.
>   
To do what?!?  How?!?

>
>
> I test aprox 10 printers and only HL2030 has correct output. But toner
> isn't suitable for toner transfer.... :-(
>
> Slavko.
>

I've had decent toner transfer results with a Kyocera FS-1100. The output
needs to be scaled slightly to match the CNC drilled holes, and I am not
doing large PCBs (10cm by 7cm). And the printer is not exactly cheap (seems
to be very economical in the long run, though).

-Tolga


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

 

I haven’t done so many pcb, and very big but I have now problem with HL2030.
See my last pcb.

 

Chris

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Tolga Abaci
Sent: 22 June 2010 08:34
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] CNC drill holes and laser printer output, they
do not align. Suggestions?

 

  

>
>
> I test aprox 10 printers and only HL2030 has correct output. But toner
> isn't suitable for toner transfer.... :-(
>
> Slavko.
>

I've had decent toner transfer results with a Kyocera FS-1100. The output
needs to be scaled slightly to match the CNC drilled holes, and I am not
doing large PCBs (10cm by 7cm). And the printer is not exactly cheap (seems
to be very economical in the long run, though).

-Tolga

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Krzysztof Juszczak pravi:
> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> I haven\ufffdt done so many pcb, and very big but I have now problem with HL2030.
> See my last pcb.
>
>  
>
> Chris
>
>  
Do you do toner transfer?
Do you have original toner?
What is the laminator temperature ?

Hi Slavko,
The answer is:
YES - toner transfer method, original toner.
I do not know temperature - just iron.
This time I used HP inkjet semi-glossy paper (170g/sqr.m).
I need maybe more exercise with different paper, because cleaning was not
easy, but toner stick to pcb really OK  

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
Sent: 22 June 2010 14:38
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] CNC drill holes and laser printer output, they
do not align. Suggestions?

Krzysztof Juszczak pravi:
> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> I haven't done so many pcb, and very big but I have now problem with
HL2030.
> See my last pcb.
>
>  
>
> Chris
>
>  
Do you do toner transfer?
Do you have original toner?
What is the laminator temperature ?


------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

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Hash: SHA1

On 21.Jun.10 21:12, Slavko Kocjancic wrote:
> Hello...
> 
> I'm make PCB with toner transfer quite long. It work's so well...
> And I can make PCB for small QFP with 0.8 or 0.5mm grid without problems.
> I didn't know that my printer has bad output at all.
> But when I go to drill my board with CNC (was drilled by hand) then I 
> notice that problem as all holes isn't drilled in centre.
> I blame CNC (homemade) 1'st for inacurracy but came out that CNC is 
> accurate but not the printer.
> 
> Then I just put commercialy made film to my printout and see difference 
> easy and goes to investigate. BAD bad Bad printer. And not just one. !
> 
> Slavko.
> 
> 

Heh :)

One of reasons that I've never even considered going TT route (printer
inconsistencies).

Commercially made films, photo precoated boards, HaOH/Silicate
developper, HCl + H2O2 etchant and I have my prototypes in less than an
hour.

Oh, yes, CNC is IEHK IEP1325 Chinezzee router (1250x2440 mm working area :))

- -- 
 Best regards,
 Zoran A. Scepanovic
 zastos@...
 www.zastos.com
 www.zastos.biz
 +381 63 609-993

=====


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