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2010-08-16 by Frank P
There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: a) actone b) rubbing alcohol c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) What works best for you? Thanks. Frank P.
2010-08-16 by Paul Mateer
acetone...aka nail polish remover On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Frank P <qz9090@...> wrote: > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on > your schematic to the copper? > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon > scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > a) actone > b) rubbing alcohol > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > What works best for you? > > Thanks. > > Frank P. > > > -- Paul Mateer, AA9GG Elan Engineering Corp. www.elanengr.com NAQCC 3123, SKCC 4628, FPQRP 2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-08-16 by jp.gleyzes
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote: > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > a) actone > b) rubbing alcohol > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > What works best for you? > > Thanks. > > > Frank P. > HI, I am simply using 600 grade sand paper (without water) and then I clean with aceton. Result here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMnc30hRe8 JP
2010-08-16 by Alessio Sangalli
On 08/16/2010 01:14 PM, Frank P wrote: > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite > (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: I never scrub my PCBs. I have not seen any advantage. I just use a shop cloth with heavy duty flux cleaner or acetone (not the nail polish remover thing, that is not as effective). I will probably try the MEK that was mentioned some emails ago. bye as
2010-08-16 by DJ Delorie
I have a green kitchen scrubbie and some Dawn dish detergent. I scrub them a bit to get dirt and debris of them, and make them basically shiny, but I use UV film so it's not as critical that it be clean at the atomic level :-)
2010-08-17 by Slavko Kocjancic
DJ Delorie pravi: > I have a green kitchen scrubbie and some Dawn dish detergent. I scrub > them a bit to get dirt and debris of them, and make them basically > shiny, but I use UV film so it's not as critical that it be clean at the > atomic level :-) > > Again Mee. I use Green kitchen scrubbie too. But this time dry! No solvent's at all. And I newer lost a trace. To make job easy I cut aprox 8cm diameter disc from scrubby and make few discs. Then I punch hole in the middle and stack that to the M8 bolt. After screw all together I just put that to the drill machine and turn it on at low to moderate speed. And just jittle pushing the board against that clean it pretty well. The 10cm X 8cm board cleaning time is under 30 seconds. Cheap easy and not stinkable. Slavko.
2010-08-19 by Frank P
JP, Interesting.... What make and model laminator are you using? Is it modified for you PCB process? --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jp.gleyzes" <freedom2000@...> wrote:
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > a) actone > > b) rubbing alcohol > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > What works best for you? > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Frank P. > > > > HI, > > I am simply using 600 grade sand paper (without water) and then I clean with aceton. > > Result here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMnc30hRe8 > > JP >
2010-08-19 by jp.gleyzes
Hi, It's a GBC SMART laminator tio which I have increased the temperature by adding a 6.8k resistor to the termistor. And redone the rollers "walls" because they had melted :-( All is explained here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/2010322437/pic/list JP --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
> > JP, > Interesting.... What make and model laminator are you using? Is it modified for you PCB process? > > > > > HI, > > > > I am simply using 600 grade sand paper (without water) and then I clean with aceton. > > > > Result here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMnc30hRe8 > > > > JP > > >
2010-08-21 by Matthew Andrews
I use a sponge and some "Barkeepers friend" it's a powder cleaner that comes in a gold can much like "comet", or "ajax" come in. It's based on oxalic acid, and does a great job of cleaning a variety of metals. I just rub it around till the copper is bright and then rinse it off thoroughly. Of course never touch the copper with your bare fingers after doing this before doing the transfer. I use gloves, and hold the board by the edges. -Matt On 8/16/10 11:07 PM, Slavko Kocjancic wrote: > > > DJ Delorie pravi: > > I have a green kitchen scrubbie and some Dawn dish detergent. I scrub > > them a bit to get dirt and debris of them, and make them basically > > shiny, but I use UV film so it's not as critical that it be clean at > the > > atomic level :-) > > > > > Again Mee. > I use Green kitchen scrubbie too. But this time dry! No solvent's at all. > And I newer lost a trace. > To make job easy I cut aprox 8cm diameter disc from scrubby and make few > discs. Then I punch hole in the middle and stack that to the M8 bolt. > After screw all together I just put that to the drill machine and turn > it on at low to moderate speed. And just jittle pushing the board > against that clean it pretty well. The 10cm X 8cm board cleaning time is > under 30 seconds. > > Cheap easy and not stinkable. > > Slavko. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-08-25 by morarcalin
I do this: 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water 2 - Then wipe with Acetone 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet at any grocery store I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to FeCl ... :)) I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
> > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > a) actone > b) rubbing alcohol > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > What works best for you? > > Thanks. > > > Frank P. >
2010-08-25 by Bob Macklin
I do the acetone first. The I use the Comet powder with bleach. Then I work it over with the 3M green pad. Bob Macklin K5MYJ Seattle, Wa. "Real Radios Glow In The Dark" ----- Original Message ----- From: "morarcalin" <morarcalin@...> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:28 AM Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you?
> > > I do this: > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but > not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with > Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin > traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should > find Commet at any grocery store > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > FeCl ... :)) > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was > able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't > skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote: >> >> There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was >> wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you >> iron-on your schematic to the copper? >> >> I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite >> (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: >> >> a) actone >> b) rubbing alcohol >> c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) >> >> What works best for you? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> Frank P. >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2010-08-25 by Andrew Volk
Moracalin - Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool etching solution." Can you elaborate? Thanks, Andy _____
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of morarcalin Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:29 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you? I do this: 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water 2 - Then wipe with Acetone 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet at any grocery store I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to FeCl ... :)) I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator. html) --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote: > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > a) actone > b) rubbing alcohol > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > What works best for you? > > Thanks. > > > Frank P. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-08-25 by Alessio Sangalli
On 08/25/2010 11:12 AM, Andrew Volk wrote: > Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool > etching solution." Can you elaborate? Exactly, I've never heard of this technique, and I am interested. bye as
2010-08-25 by Bob Macklin
Chlorine! Bob Macklin K5MYJ Seattle, Wa. "Real Radios Glow In The Dark" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alessio Sangalli" <alesan@...> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you?
> On 08/25/2010 11:12 AM, Andrew Volk wrote: > >> Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool >> etching solution." Can you elaborate? > > Exactly, I've never heard of this technique, and I am interested. > > bye > as > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2010-08-26 by Frank P
Andy, I believe the "pool etch solution" that was referenced, is in reference to using muriatic acid (use to maintain swimming pools). You can buy it at Ace Hardware in small quantities but it is hydrochloric acid and is very dangerous, so use this method with care. For more info. search this Yahoo Group for CuCl (cupric cloride) or Google "pcb muriatic acid". Good luck and be careful. Frank P. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Volk" <amvweb@...> wrote:
> > Moracalin - > > Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool > etching solution." Can you elaborate? > > Thanks, Andy > > _____ > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of morarcalin > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:29 AM > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do > you? > > > > > > > I do this: > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not > as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I > found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I > speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet > at any grocery store > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > FeCl ... :)) > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able > to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on > buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator. > html) > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on > your schematic to the copper? > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon > scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > a) actone > > b) rubbing alcohol > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > What works best for you? > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Frank P. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2010-08-26 by Frank P
morarcalin, Using Comet was a new one on me. Doesn't it create scratches? Regardless, it sounds like you're getting good results. You mentioned a GBC laminator (your link), are you using it unmodified? Is it hot enough to make the transfer? Multiple passes? Thanks. Frank P --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "morarcalin" <morarcalin@...> wrote:
> > > > I do this: > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet at any grocery store > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to FeCl ... :)) > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > a) actone > > b) rubbing alcohol > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > What works best for you? > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Frank P. > > >
2010-08-26 by kumuzu1
Morarcalin and others, I'm a bit of a newbie here. What was your experience like with the Laminator? The Pulsar site seems to suggest you need the 'Personal' one versus the 'Creative' one that you recommend. Personally, I'd rather use the 'Creative' one because it only costs ~$25 vs ~$75 for the 'Personal' one. Apparently, the Personal one runs at a higher temperature and this is critical for good transfers? Also, I have a Brother MFC 8840DN printer and I hear rumors that there is an issue with Brother toner? Is this true? I'm just embarking on this journey. I just tried making my first pcb with a laser cutter to do the paint removal but I found I etched away some traces while using the sponge/fe-cl etching method. Thanks, --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Macklin" <macklinbob@...> wrote:
> > I do the acetone first. The I use the Comet powder with bleach. Then I work > it over with the 3M green pad. > > Bob Macklin > K5MYJ > Seattle, Wa. > "Real Radios Glow In The Dark" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "morarcalin" <morarcalin@...> > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:28 AM > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do > you? > > > > > > > > I do this: > > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but > > not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with > > Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin > > traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should > > find Commet at any grocery store > > > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > > FeCl ... :)) > > > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was > > able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't > > skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > >> > >> There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > >> wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you > >> iron-on your schematic to the copper? > >> > >> I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite > >> (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > >> > >> a) actone > >> b) rubbing alcohol > >> c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > >> > >> What works best for you? > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> Frank P. > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > > Photos: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >
2010-08-26 by alienrelics
Muriatic acid is also used to clean bricks and is available at many hardware stores. CuCl is what you end up with when you use muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide. At first it etchs as muriatic acid, but as it gets more copper in it, it becomes Cupric Chloride. That is my understanding of it. Steve Greenfield AE7HD --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
> > Andy, > I believe the "pool etch solution" that was referenced, is in reference to using muriatic acid (use to maintain swimming pools). You can buy it at Ace Hardware in small quantities but it is hydrochloric acid and is very dangerous, so use this method with care. > > For more info. search this Yahoo Group for CuCl (cupric cloride) or Google "pcb muriatic acid". > > Good luck and be careful. > > Frank P. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Volk" <amvweb@> wrote: > > > > Moracalin - > > > > Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool > > etching solution." Can you elaborate? > > > > Thanks, Andy > > > > _____ > > > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of morarcalin > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:29 AM > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do > > you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do this: > > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not > > as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I > > found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I > > speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet > > at any grocery store > > > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > > FeCl ... :)) > > > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able > > to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on > > buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator. > > html) > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > > wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on > > your schematic to the copper? > > > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon > > scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > > > a) actone > > > b) rubbing alcohol > > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > > > What works best for you? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > Frank P. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >
2010-08-26 by Bob Macklin
Don't bother with the "Creative" laminator. You would just be wasting your money. The process needs the higher temperature of the "Personal". The Pulsar instructions say to run the board through twice. I had marginal results that way. Four passes were better. Now I use eight passes and am getting consistent results. Bob Macklin K5MYJ Seattle, Wa. "Real Radios Glow In The Dark" ----- Original Message ----- From: "kumuzu1" <bulchandani@...> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 11:33 AM Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you?
> > > Morarcalin and others, > > I'm a bit of a newbie here. > > What was your experience like with the Laminator? The Pulsar site seems to > suggest you need the 'Personal' one versus the 'Creative' one that you > recommend. Personally, I'd rather use the 'Creative' one because it only > costs ~$25 vs ~$75 for the 'Personal' one. Apparently, the Personal one > runs at a higher temperature and this is critical for good transfers? > > Also, I have a Brother MFC 8840DN printer and I hear rumors that there is > an issue with Brother toner? Is this true? > > I'm just embarking on this journey. I just tried making my first pcb with > a laser cutter to do the paint removal but I found I etched away some > traces while using the sponge/fe-cl etching method. > > Thanks, > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Macklin" <macklinbob@...> > wrote: >> >> I do the acetone first. The I use the Comet powder with bleach. Then I >> work >> it over with the 3M green pad. >> >> Bob Macklin >> K5MYJ >> Seattle, Wa. >> "Real Radios Glow In The Dark" >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "morarcalin" <morarcalin@...> >> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:28 AM >> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what >> do >> you? >> >> >> > >> > >> > I do this: >> > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water >> > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone >> > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on >> > >> > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop >> > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but >> > not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with >> > Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin >> > traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You >> > should >> > find Commet at any grocery store >> > >> > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans >> > the >> > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the >> > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel >> > and >> > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone >> > evaporates >> > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before >> > "ironing". >> > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. >> > >> > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back >> > to >> > FeCl ... :)) >> > >> > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was >> > able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't >> > skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from >> > here >> > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) >> > >> > >> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: >> >> >> >> There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I >> >> was >> >> wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you >> >> iron-on your schematic to the copper? >> >> >> >> I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite >> >> (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: >> >> >> >> a) actone >> >> b) rubbing alcohol >> >> c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) >> >> >> >> What works best for you? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> Frank P. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and >> > Photos: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2010-08-26 by Derward Myrick
Steve the muratic acid by its self will only clean the copper oxide. If you put copper in muratic acid it will clean it and if left in the acid it will not eat away anymore after it is clean. Derward
----- Original Message ----- From: alienrelics To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 2:01 PM Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you? Muriatic acid is also used to clean bricks and is available at many hardware stores. CuCl is what you end up with when you use muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide. At first it etchs as muriatic acid, but as it gets more copper in it, it becomes Cupric Chloride. That is my understanding of it. Steve Greenfield AE7HD --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote: > > Andy, > I believe the "pool etch solution" that was referenced, is in reference to using muriatic acid (use to maintain swimming pools). You can buy it at Ace Hardware in small quantities but it is hydrochloric acid and is very dangerous, so use this method with care. > > For more info. search this Yahoo Group for CuCl (cupric cloride) or Google "pcb muriatic acid". > > Good luck and be careful. > > Frank P. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Volk" <amvweb@> wrote: > > > > Moracalin - > > > > Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool > > etching solution." Can you elaborate? > > > > Thanks, Andy > > > > _____ > > > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of morarcalin > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:29 AM > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do > > you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do this: > > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not > > as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I > > found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I > > speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet > > at any grocery store > > > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > > FeCl ... :)) > > > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able > > to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on > > buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator. > > html) > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > > wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on > > your schematic to the copper? > > > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon > > scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > > > a) actone > > > b) rubbing alcohol > > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > > > What works best for you? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > Frank P. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-08-27 by Ben L
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Derward Myrick" <wdmyrick@...> wrote: > > Steve the muratic acid by its self will only clean the copper oxide. > If you put copper in muratic acid it will clean it and if left in the > acid it will not eat away anymore after it is clean. > > Derward > Think he said Muratic Acid with hydrogen Peroxide, not just Muratic Acid. Yes this will etch a board very nicely. As you etch the copper in the solution turns it to CuCl and can be regenerated by air and/or hydrogen Peroxide and use over and over and over. Ben
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: alienrelics > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 2:01 PM > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you? > > > > > Muriatic acid is also used to clean bricks and is available at many hardware stores. > CuCl is what you end up with when you use muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide. At first it etchs as muriatic acid, but as it gets more copper in it, it becomes Cupric Chloride. > > That is my understanding of it. > > Steve Greenfield AE7HD > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > Andy, > > I believe the "pool etch solution" that was referenced, is in reference to using muriatic acid (use to maintain swimming pools). You can buy it at Ace Hardware in small quantities but it is hydrochloric acid and is very dangerous, so use this method with care. > > > > For more info. search this Yahoo Group for CuCl (cupric cloride) or Google "pcb muriatic acid". > > > > Good luck and be careful. > > > > Frank P. > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "Andrew Volk" <amvweb@> wrote: > > > > > > Moracalin - > > > > > > Sorry, I am new to this list, so I am not familiar with the term "pool > > > etching solution." Can you elaborate? > > > > > > Thanks, Andy > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > > > On Behalf Of morarcalin > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:29 AM > > > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do > > > you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do this: > > > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > > > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > > > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > > > > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > > > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not > > > as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I > > > found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I > > > speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet > > > at any grocery store > > > > > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > > > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > > > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > > > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > > > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > > > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > > > > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > > > FeCl ... :)) > > > > > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able > > > to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on > > > buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > > > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator. > > > html) > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > > > wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on > > > your schematic to the copper? > > > > > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon > > > scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > > > > > a) actone > > > > b) rubbing alcohol > > > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > > > > > What works best for you? > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Frank P. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2010-08-28 by James
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote: > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > a) actone > b) rubbing alcohol > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > What works best for you? > > Thanks. > > > Frank P. > I've used a number of different things that have mostly all worked fine. I normally start by scrubbing the board with a fresh bit of green scrubby pad. Rather than muck up a whole pad, I cut off a small rectangle and use that. Once the copper is nice and shiny, I wipe it off with cleaner. Rubbing alcohol and Windex both work well, Naptha and Acetone are also good but much more stinky. The key is to use something that evaporates fully and leaves no residue behind. Also forget the iron, get a laminator and you will never go back, there is no comparison to how much better it works.
2010-08-28 by James
> > I'm a bit of a newbie here. > > What was your experience like with the Laminator? The Pulsar site seems to suggest you need the 'Personal' one versus the 'Creative' one that you recommend. Personally, I'd rather use the 'Creative' one because it only costs ~$25 vs ~$75 for the 'Personal' one. Apparently, the Personal one runs at a higher temperature and this is critical for good transfers? > > Until I was given a fancy Unilam professional machine, I was getting good results on small PCBs with a $25 Scotch laminator. I believe these same innards are used in many different brands of machine. I did a simple modification to increase the temperature, and with the addition of a variable resistor it's possible to set it even higher. Ideally you would slow down the feed rate quite a bit, but the synchronous motor most of the cheap machines use does not lend itself well to this. With a little machinework a nice solution would be to replace that motor with a DC gearhead motor and variable speed control.
2010-08-29 by Tony Smith
> I've used a number of different things that have mostly all worked > fine. I normally start by scrubbing the board with a fresh bit of green > scrubby pad. Rather than muck up a whole pad, I cut off a small > rectangle and use that. Once the copper is nice and shiny, I wipe it > off with cleaner. Rubbing alcohol and Windex both work well, Naptha and > Acetone are also good but much more stinky. The key is to use something > that evaporates fully and leaves no residue behind. You need two cleaners to get things clean, mechanical before hand helps. You need a degreaser (simple green etc) to get rid of most junk, and something water soluble & ammonia based (like the Windex) to get rid of the organics such as finger prints. Rubbing alcohol & Windex are a good combo as you've found. I haven't tried Naptha, and as I get older I try to steer clear of such things as acetone. I haven't tried using hydrochloric acid to clean copper as someone suggest, and I don't think I will. I discovered the other night that if it's cold and you take the cap off a bottle of it, you can see the fumes coming off it. Must look up what it's evaporation point is. Ok, I did say TRY to steer clear of such things. Tony
2010-08-30 by morarcalin
Sorry guys .. my bad for the "POOL ETCHING SOLUTION" and being slow to get back to you faster. The "pool etching" was just a "supposedly" funny way of saying that I use the Muriatic Acid and Hydrogen peroxide mix. I use this a receipe from here - http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Acid_Etching/ (the DrugStoreHardware ...). I buy the Muriatc acid from AceHardware (actually you can find it everywhere) and the peroxide from Wallgreens . Plus I am very brutal (simple 2 parts a peroxide to 1 part of 30% muriatic acid). You don't have to be dead exact. I regenrate the solution using an aquarium pump. Yes, at the beginning you have a very active solution - etch in a ventilated area because it fumes a bit - but after you do some more etching you and up with CuCl (cupric chloride) which is the most used industrial etchant from what I've read. I've read that you can accelerate getting to CuCl if you throw in a copper pipe and bubble lots of air through - might be true - i never tried that. Beware if you go the "copper pipe" way - the reaction is a bit exotermic when you have the fresh mix. And .. POUR ACID IN PEROXIDE NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND !!! :) I have the 25$/Creative laminator - works a wonder for what I do. Don't forget to wipe the board with acteone before doing the transfer. You should do the acetone the very last in your "cleaning" process. I am not sure if it is the solvent residue that remains on the board or just because the board is cleaner .. or both :)) .. but this really helps the toner on the very tin traces (4 mills) to stick and don't come of the board. I try to not scratch very deep the board - 3M scrubbing pads are a bit to harsh for very thin traces. I use the cooktop scrubing pads. I use Comet and Cerama Bryte pads I got from Safeway - saw them also at Lowes. Calin --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "kumuzu1" <bulchandani@...> wrote:
> > > > Morarcalin and others, > > I'm a bit of a newbie here. > > What was your experience like with the Laminator? The Pulsar site seems to suggest you need the 'Personal' one versus the 'Creative' one that you recommend. Personally, I'd rather use the 'Creative' one because it only costs ~$25 vs ~$75 for the 'Personal' one. Apparently, the Personal one runs at a higher temperature and this is critical for good transfers? > > Also, I have a Brother MFC 8840DN printer and I hear rumors that there is an issue with Brother toner? Is this true? > > I'm just embarking on this journey. I just tried making my first pcb with a laser cutter to do the paint removal but I found I etched away some traces while using the sponge/fe-cl etching method. > > Thanks, > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Macklin" <macklinbob@> wrote: > > > > I do the acetone first. The I use the Comet powder with bleach. Then I work > > it over with the 3M green pad. > > > > Bob Macklin > > K5MYJ > > Seattle, Wa. > > "Real Radios Glow In The Dark" > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "morarcalin" <morarcalin@> > > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:28 AM > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do > > you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do this: > > > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > > > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > > > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > > > > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop > > > scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but > > > not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with > > > Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin > > > traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should > > > find Commet at any grocery store > > > > > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the > > > board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the > > > copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and > > > don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates > > > almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". > > > Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > > > > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to > > > FeCl ... :)) > > > > > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was > > > able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't > > > skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here > > > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > >> > > >> There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was > > >> wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you > > >> iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > >> > > >> I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite > > >> (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > >> > > >> a) actone > > >> b) rubbing alcohol > > >> c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > >> > > >> What works best for you? > > >> > > >> Thanks. > > >> > > >> > > >> Frank P. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > > > Photos: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
2010-08-30 by morarcalin
Comet + Cerama Bryte pads work like a charm. Obviously I use it wet not dry.. and scrub pretty well the copper. I just damp the pad so the Comet turns in a "paste". In top of that Comet has bleach in it and washed organic stuff also. If I am patient and scrub long enough (I am lazy and usually don't scrub enough) ... I literally get almost a mirror finish on the copper. When I say long is like a minute or so a side. The GBC laminator is unmodified, but I do like 8-10 pases. Hot enough or not ,I think that may depend by what type of toner your printer uses. I have a Samsung printer .. with Samsung toner. And yes .. don't even try to go to 0.5mm if you don't have 1200DPI printer... I tried it :)) Calin --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@...> wrote:
> > morarcalin, > > Using Comet was a new one on me. Doesn't it create scratches? > Regardless, it sounds like you're getting good results. > > You mentioned a GBC laminator (your link), are you using it unmodified? Is it hot enough to make the transfer? Multiple passes? > > Thanks. > > > Frank P > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "morarcalin" <morarcalin@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I do this: > > 1 - Wash/clean with Comet powder then rinse with tap water > > 2 - Then wipe with Acetone > > 3 - Tonner transfer ... etch ... and so on > > > > I do not use a kitchen scrubbing pad (the harsh ones) but a cooktop scrubbing pad. Same thing as the standard 3M kitchen scrubbing pads but not as abrasive so it does not scratch the copper at all when used with Comet. I found out that scratches are not helping at all with very thin traces (I speak 5 mils traces or 0.5mm pads for LQFP packages). You should find Commet at any grocery store > > > > I found the second step to be absolutely essential. This forst cleans the board and second the acetone "remains" help the tonner to stick to the copper better. Be generous whit the acetone, use a kitchen paper towel and don't wipe the board dry, leave it air dry by itself (acetone evaporates almost instantaneous anyways). I usually do this right before "ironing". Bought my acetone from Home Depot or Lowes. > > > > Then etch with the usual "pool etching solution". I am never going back to FeCl ... :)) > > > > I get consistent results each and every time. With a bit of care I was able to do 4 mill traces - 5 mil are already routine. My advice, don't skimp on buying a laminator - makes the difference. I got mine from here (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Frank P" <qz9090@> wrote: > > > > > > There has been some discussion about removing toner from a PCB, but I was wondering what do you guys use to clean the copper clad before you iron-on your schematic to the copper? > > > > > > I suspect some of the answers might include the use of Scotch Brite (nylon scrubbing pad) and one the following: > > > > > > a) actone > > > b) rubbing alcohol > > > c) Tarn-x (not sure of the spelling) > > > > > > What works best for you? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > Frank P. > > > > > >
2010-10-19 by Jean-MarcS
> Also forget the iron, get a laminator and you will never go back, there is no comparison to how much better it works. Hi, Regarding the laminator, is there a minimum temperature we need to have to do a good job? Or we "just" need to pass more times in the laminator if temp is to low? Thanks, JM
2010-10-19 by freedom2000
Hin Yes there is a minimal temp which depends on the toner you use (the printer model) For all printer (but Brothers) this temperature is around 170°C 180°C For Brother printer it is closer to 200° JP Le 19/10/2010 19:57, Jean-MarcS a écrit : > > > Also forget the iron, get a laminator and you will never go back, > there is no comparison to how much better it works. > > Hi, > > Regarding the laminator, is there a minimum temperature we need to > have to do a good job? Or we "just" need to pass more times in the > laminator if temp is to low? > > Thanks, > > JM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-19 by Jean-Marc Spaggiari
Hi JP, thanks for your prompt feedback. My printer is a Lexmark E210. I just ordered a GBC HeatSeal (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) and hope it will be hot enought. Do we know how hot the GBC laminators are? Also, I'm planning to "play" with the motor to have it moving slowly (like cutting the power 30% of the time, etc.) so the PCB will stay longer in the hoven. JM 2010/10/19 freedom2000 <freedom2000@...>:
> Hin > > Yes there is a minimal temp which depends on the toner you use (the > printer model) > > For all printer (but Brothers) this temperature is around 170°C 180°C > For Brother printer it is closer to 200° > > JP > > Le 19/10/2010 19:57, Jean-MarcS a écrit : >> Hi, >> >> Regarding the laminator, is there a minimum temperature we need to >> have to do a good job? Or we "just" need to pass more times in the >> laminator if temp is to low? >> >> Thanks, >> >> JM >>
2010-10-19 by freedom2000
For Lexmark (I have also one ) the temperature is 170°C I have tweaked my GBC to increase the temp see here for the whole story : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/2010322437/pic/list As your first name seems to be french, and as I am also french, I have posted explainations on a french forum too : http://www.usinages.com/impresson-pcb-avec-une-plastifieuse-gbc-t22763.html Don't need to play with the motor, just the temperature which is really easy to achieve :-) JP Le 19/10/2010 20:41, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : > > Hi JP, thanks for your prompt feedback. > > My printer is a Lexmark E210. I just ordered a GBC HeatSeal > (http://www.presentationsdirect.com/gbc-heatseal-9-creative-pouch-laminator.html) > and hope it will be hot enought. Do we know how hot the GBC laminators > are? > > Also, I'm planning to "play" with the motor to have it moving slowly > (like cutting the power 30% of the time, etc.) so the PCB will stay > longer in the hoven. > > JM > > 2010/10/19 freedom2000 <freedom2000@... > <mailto:freedom2000%40free.fr>>: > > Hin > > > > Yes there is a minimal temp which depends on the toner you use (the > > printer model) > > > > For all printer (but Brothers) this temperature is around 170°C 180°C > > For Brother printer it is closer to 200° > > > > JP > > > > Le 19/10/2010 19:57, Jean-MarcS a écrit : > >> Hi, > >> > >> Regarding the laminator, is there a minimum temperature we need to > >> have to do a good job? Or we "just" need to pass more times in the > >> laminator if temp is to low? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> JM > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-19 by Jean-Marc Spaggiari
> For Lexmark (I have also one ) the temperature is 170°C Good to know. ;) Thanks! > I have tweaked my GBC to increase the temp see here for the whole story > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/2010322437/pic/list Yep, that's why I bought this model ;) Because I read all your posts and looked at all your videos ;) > As your first name seems to be french, and as I am also french, I have > posted explainations on a french forum too : > http://www.usinages.com/impresson-pcb-avec-une-plastifieuse-gbc-t22763.html Thanks for this link! I read all this thread too! Very useful! > Don't need to play with the motor, just the temperature which is really > easy to achieve :-) My main concern is that I don't think I will be able to re-build the end supports like here: http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8229/gbclaminator5.jpg so that's why I was thinking about slowing down the motor instead of rising the temperature :( You are providing Solidworks and Gcode files for that, but what can I do with them? I spent the last week trying with the iron method, and never got very good results. Only 20 mils was 100% good. 15 and 10 was bad. Also, have you tried yourself do to double-faced board? I would like to try with the last method you described (print the 2 sides of the board on a single sheet, then fold it over the bord...) Thanks, JM
2010-10-19 by freedom2000
well tricky issue.. If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the temp will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor speed is... The only good solution is to increase the temp. But if you increase the temp you will probably melt the rollers supports. So you will have to mill new ones... that's why I provided the solidworks + Gcode files :-) If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the walls for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) JP Le 19/10/2010 21:18, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : > > > For Lexmark (I have also one ) the temperature is 170°C > > Good to know. ;) Thanks! > > > I have tweaked my GBC to increase the temp see here for the whole story > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/2010322437/pic/list > Yep, that's why I bought this model ;) Because I read all your posts > and looked at all your videos ;) > > > As your first name seems to be french, and as I am also french, I have > > posted explainations on a french forum too : > > > http://www.usinages.com/impresson-pcb-avec-une-plastifieuse-gbc-t22763.html > > Thanks for this link! I read all this thread too! Very useful! > > > Don't need to play with the motor, just the temperature which is really > > easy to achieve :-) > > My main concern is that I don't think I will be able to re-build the > end supports like here: > http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8229/gbclaminator5.jpg so that's > why I was thinking about slowing down the motor instead of rising the > temperature :( You are providing Solidworks and Gcode files for that, > but what can I do with them? > > I spent the last week trying with the iron method, and never got very > good results. Only 20 mils was 100% good. 15 and 10 was bad. > > Also, have you tried yourself do to double-faced board? I would like > to try with the last method you described (print the 2 sides of the > board on a single sheet, then fold it over the bord...) > > Thanks, > > JM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-19 by Jean-Marc Spaggiari
> If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the temp > will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor speed is... I see. It's like if I try to cook an egg but putting it on 20C water. I can let it there as long as I want, is will never harden... > If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the walls > for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) Thanks A LOT for the offering. I will receive the laminator in about a week. So I will let you know at that time. But I'm curious, how are you going those "walls"? JM
2010-10-19 by freedom2000
exactly for the egg :-) for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb copper boards) An even faster solution that I have not yet tested would be to use a laser cutter see here : http://www.usinages.com/soft-pour-plp-c50-t22761.html and you will recognize that I am very close to be able to "lase" the GBC walls !!! JP Le 19/10/2010 22:13, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : > > > If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the temp > > will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor > speed is... > > I see. It's like if I try to cook an egg but putting it on 20C water. > I can let it there as long as I want, is will never harden... > > > If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the walls > > for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) > > Thanks A LOT for the offering. I will receive the laminator in about a > week. So I will let you know at that time. But I'm curious, how are > you going those "walls"? > > JM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-19 by Jean-Marc Spaggiari
Man, you're crazy!!!! That might be awesome to have "toys" like that. Now I understand how you are doing those "walls" ;) I will send you pictures of mine when I will receive it in a week. Thanks again, JM 2010/10/19 freedom2000 <freedom2000@...>:
> exactly for the egg :-) > > for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : > http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html > > so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb > copper boards) > > An even faster solution that I have not yet tested would be to use a > laser cutter see here : > http://www.usinages.com/soft-pour-plp-c50-t22761.html > > and you will recognize that I am very close to be able to "lase" the GBC > walls !!! > > JP > > > > Le 19/10/2010 22:13, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : >> >> > If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the temp >> > will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor >> speed is... >> >> I see. It's like if I try to cook an egg but putting it on 20C water. >> I can let it there as long as I want, is will never harden... >> >> > If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the walls >> > for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) >> >> Thanks A LOT for the offering. I will receive the laminator in about a >> week. So I will let you know at that time. But I'm curious, how are >> you going those "walls"? >> >> JM >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2010-10-20 by freedom2000
Yes I am probably a bit crazy :-) But it's however simpler than you can imagine to have a very simple but efficient CNC And it's also quite inexpensive. See here the first CNC that I did (2 years ago) : http://freedom2000.free.fr/CNC_index.html Everything is explained (in french...+ pics and movies). It's easy to do. I personnaly know more than 4 people who did it and were happy with the (limited to soft material) result !!! JP ----- Mail Original ----- De: "Jean-Marc Spaggiari" <Jean-Marc@...> À: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> Envoyé: Mercredi 20 Octobre 2010 01h07:22 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne Objet: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you? Man, you're crazy!!!! That might be awesome to have "toys" like that. Now I understand how you are doing those "walls" ;) I will send you pictures of mine when I will receive it in a week. Thanks again, JM 2010/10/19 freedom2000 < freedom2000@... >: > exactly for the egg :-) > > for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : > http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html > > so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb > copper boards) > > An even faster solution that I have not yet tested would be to use a > laser cutter see here : > http://www.usinages.com/soft-pour-plp-c50-t22761.html > > and you will recognize that I am very close to be able to "lase" the GBC > walls !!! > > JP > > > > Le 19/10/2010 22:13, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : >> >> > If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the temp >> > will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor >> speed is... >> >> I see. It's like if I try to cook an egg but putting it on 20C water. >> I can let it there as long as I want, is will never harden... >> >> > If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the walls >> > for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) >> >> Thanks A LOT for the offering. I will receive the laminator in about a >> week. So I will let you know at that time. But I'm curious, how are >> you going those "walls"? >> >> JM >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo ! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-20 by Jean-Marc Spaggiari
Thanks for the link. I will add that to my "ToDo when I will retired" where I already have 10 other items ;) It's seems doable. I'm just missing time to do that :( But I will ove to have this kind of tool. Have you tried to make PCBs with that? Like removing the copper with the tool to trace the traces? How accurate is it? JM 2010/10/20 freedom2000 <freedom2000@...>:
> Yes I am probably a bit crazy :-) > > But it's however simpler than you can imagine to have a very simple but efficient CNC > And it's also quite inexpensive. See here the first CNC that I did (2 years ago) : http://freedom2000.free.fr/CNC_index.html > > Everything is explained (in french...+ pics and movies). It's easy to do. I personnaly know more than 4 people who did it and were happy with the (limited to soft material) result !!! > > JP > > > ----- Mail Original ----- > De: "Jean-Marc Spaggiari" <Jean-Marc@Spaggiari.org> > À: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> > Envoyé: Mercredi 20 Octobre 2010 01h07:22 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne > Objet: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic - what do you? > > > > > > > Man, you're crazy!!!! > > That might be awesome to have "toys" like that. Now I understand how > you are doing those "walls" ;) > > I will send you pictures of mine when I will receive it in a week. > > Thanks again, > > JM > > 2010/10/19 freedom2000 < freedom2000@... >: >> exactly for the egg :-) >> >> for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : >> http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html >> >> so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb >> copper boards) >> >> An even faster solution that I have not yet tested would be to use a >> laser cutter see here : >> http://www.usinages.com/soft-pour-plp-c50-t22761.html >> >> and you will recognize that I am very close to be able to "lase" the GBC >> walls !!! >> >> JP >> >> >> >> Le 19/10/2010 22:13, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : >>> >>> > If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the temp >>> > will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor >>> speed is... >>> >>> I see. It's like if I try to cook an egg but putting it on 20C water. >>> I can let it there as long as I want, is will never harden... >>> >>> > If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the walls >>> > for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) >>> >>> Thanks A LOT for the offering. I will receive the laminator in about a >>> week. So I will let you know at that time. But I'm curious, how are >>> you going those "walls"? >>> >>> JM >>> >>> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo ! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
2010-10-20 by freedom2000
Hi JM, Yes you can drill : http://www.usinages.com/driver-de-puissance-maison-pour-moteur-pas-a-pas-t3046-510.html and mill Vcarve : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLxBnRoMMbE It's very accurate but I prefer the look of the toner transfer ! JP Le 20/10/2010 13:41, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : > > Thanks for the link. > > I will add that to my "ToDo when I will retired" where I already have > 10 other items ;) It's seems doable. I'm just missing time to do that > :( But I will ove to have this kind of tool. > > Have you tried to make PCBs with that? Like removing the copper with > the tool to trace the traces? How accurate is it? > > JM > > 2010/10/20 freedom2000 <freedom2000@... > <mailto:freedom2000%40free.fr>>: > > Yes I am probably a bit crazy :-) > > > > But it's however simpler than you can imagine to have a very simple > but efficient CNC > > And it's also quite inexpensive. See here the first CNC that I did > (2 years ago) : http://freedom2000.free.fr/CNC_index.html > > > > Everything is explained (in french...+ pics and movies). It's easy > to do. I personnaly know more than 4 people who did it and were happy > with the (limited to soft material) result !!! > > > > JP > > > > > > ----- Mail Original ----- > > De: "Jean-Marc Spaggiari" <Jean-Marc@... > <mailto:Jean-Marc%40Spaggiari.org>> > > À: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Envoyé: Mercredi 20 Octobre 2010 01h07:22 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / > Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne > > Objet: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Before Ironing the Printed Schematic > - what do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man, you're crazy!!!! > > > > That might be awesome to have "toys" like that. Now I understand how > > you are doing those "walls" ;) > > > > I will send you pictures of mine when I will receive it in a week. > > > > Thanks again, > > > > JM > > > > 2010/10/19 freedom2000 < freedom2000@... > <mailto:freedom2000%40free.fr> >: > >> exactly for the egg :-) > >> > >> for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : > >> > http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html > >> > >> so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb > >> copper boards) > >> > >> An even faster solution that I have not yet tested would be to use a > >> laser cutter see here : > >> http://www.usinages.com/soft-pour-plp-c50-t22761.html > >> > >> and you will recognize that I am very close to be able to "lase" > the GBC > >> walls !!! > >> > >> JP > >> > >> > >> > >> Le 19/10/2010 22:13, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : > >>> > >>> > If you don't increase the temp you won't get good results as the > temp > >>> > will not be high enough to melt the toner... whatever the motor > >>> speed is... > >>> > >>> I see. It's like if I try to cook an egg but putting it on 20C water. > >>> I can let it there as long as I want, is will never harden... > >>> > >>> > If your "walls" are the same as mines I could probably mill the > walls > >>> > for you... I already did it 3 times ;-) > >>> > >>> Thanks A LOT for the offering. I will receive the laminator in about a > >>> week. So I will let you know at that time. But I'm curious, how are > >>> you going those "walls"? > >>> > >>> JM > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo ! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-21 by Derryck Croker
On 19 Oct 2010, at 21:27, freedom2000 wrote: > exactly for the egg :-) > > for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : > http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html > Nice-look machine! > so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb > copper boards) Any problems with leaving the copper on the walls, you were concerned that it could transfer heat to the plastic mounting points via the securing bolts? > -- Cheers Derryck
2010-10-21 by freedom2000
thanks for the machine :-) leaving the copper on the "walls" could be safe, but I have not tested.. My GBC is copper less ! JP Le 21/10/2010 12:30, Derryck Croker a écrit : > > On 19 Oct 2010, at 21:27, freedom2000 wrote: > > > exactly for the egg :-) > > > > for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : > > > http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html > > > Nice-look machine! > > > so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb > > copper boards) > > Any problems with leaving the copper on the walls, you were concerned > that it could transfer heat to the plastic mounting points via the > securing bolts? > > > > -- > > Cheers > > Derryck > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-21 by Jean-Marc Spaggiari
Have you made your plates with your CNC v1? Or v2? JM Le 2010-10-21 15:15, "freedom2000" <freedom2000@...> a écrit : > thanks for the machine :-) > > leaving the copper on the "walls" could be safe, but I have not tested.. > My GBC is copper less ! > > JP > > Le 21/10/2010 12:30, Derryck Croker a écrit : >> >> On 19 Oct 2010, at 21:27, freedom2000 wrote: >> >> > exactly for the egg :-) >> > >> > for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : >> > >> http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html >> > >> Nice-look machine! >> >> > so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb >> > copper boards) >> >> Any problems with leaving the copper on the walls, you were concerned >> that it could transfer heat to the plastic mounting points via the >> securing bolts? >> > >> >> -- >> >> Cheers >> >> Derryck >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-10-21 by freedom2000
With the V2 :-) JP Le 21/10/2010 21:28, Jean-Marc Spaggiari a écrit : > > Have you made your plates with your CNC v1? Or v2? > > JM > Le 2010-10-21 15:15, "freedom2000" <freedom2000@... > <mailto:freedom2000%40free.fr>> a écrit : > > thanks for the machine :-) > > > > leaving the copper on the "walls" could be safe, but I have not tested.. > > My GBC is copper less ! > > > > JP > > > > Le 21/10/2010 12:30, Derryck Croker a écrit : > >> > >> On 19 Oct 2010, at 21:27, freedom2000 wrote: > >> > >> > exactly for the egg :-) > >> > > >> > for the walls... I have designed a mill see here : > >> > > >> > http://www.usinages.com/ma-fraiseuse-v2-a-vos-critiques-svp-t8144-195.html > >> > > >> Nice-look machine! > >> > >> > so it's quite easy to produce the replacement walls from epoxy (pcb > >> > copper boards) > >> > >> Any problems with leaving the copper on the walls, you were concerned > >> that it could transfer heat to the plastic mounting points via the > >> securing bolts? > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Derryck > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and > Photos: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]