Homebrew PCBs

Hello all,
       Like many of you, I've had great success with the Direct toner 
method. Unless I'm mistaken I was the FIRST to suggest the use of 
sheets from magazines as a souce of the paper ( I did EXTENSIVE 
research on the net for a couple of months looking for suggestions as 
to what brand of photo paper to use and not once did I see anyone 
else suggest magazine stock at that time! ).

 As to the laminator....I'm not sure if it was an older version of 
DynaArt's web page or another manufacturer but I remember seeing a 
page that described the Laminator they re-sold for the use of Direct 
Toner Transfering and they CLEARLY stated they used an UNMODIFIED 
Machine. Looking at the photo I again did some research and 
discovered it was a GBC (General Binding Corporation) model "DocuSeal 
95P" available from Staples/Business Depot for $129.92 Canadian. The 
site had it listed as $149.99 US (their markup I'm sure)

 Looking on E-Bay I've seen the same model number listed but the 
photo is different so there appears to have been a "VERSION" change 
at some point. The one you'll want to look for is silver with a 
blue "D" shaped area if you look at the the laminator from above, 
held sideways. The older version appears to be a cream coloured unit.

 I'm sure there are PLENTY....I'll say again PLENTY!!!! of laminators 
that will work, but it's always nice to know a model that obviously 
works well enough for a company to choose to re-sell it specifically 
for the task that WE want it for.

Hope that helps at least one person out there considering buying a 
laminator and not sure what model may or may not be suitable.

Cheers....Dean.

Hi,

    I have looked at laminators and am concerned that even the GBC Docuseal 95 you mentioned seem to have a 5 mil spec. on thickness. Is this a problem or will they take pcb material?

Thanks - Jack

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dean Batute 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:25 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Model of laminator used


  Hello all,
         Like many of you, I've had great success with the Direct toner 
  method. Unless I'm mistaken I was the FIRST to suggest the use of 
  sheets from magazines as a souce of the paper ( I did EXTENSIVE 
  research on the net for a couple of months looking for suggestions as 
  to what brand of photo paper to use and not once did I see anyone 
  else suggest magazine stock at that time! ).

  As to the laminator....I'm not sure if it was an older version of 
  DynaArt's web page or another manufacturer but I remember seeing a 
  page that described the Laminator they re-sold for the use of Direct 
  Toner Transfering and they CLEARLY stated they used an UNMODIFIED 
  Machine. Looking at the photo I again did some research and 
  discovered it was a GBC (General Binding Corporation) model "DocuSeal 
  95P" available from Staples/Business Depot for $129.92 Canadian. The 
  site had it listed as $149.99 US (their markup I'm sure)

  Looking on E-Bay I've seen the same model number listed but the 
  photo is different so there appears to have been a "VERSION" change 
  at some point. The one you'll want to look for is silver with a 
  blue "D" shaped area if you look at the the laminator from above, 
  held sideways. The older version appears to be a cream coloured unit.

  I'm sure there are PLENTY....I'll say again PLENTY!!!! of laminators 
  that will work, but it's always nice to know a model that obviously 
  works well enough for a company to choose to re-sell it specifically 
  for the task that WE want it for.

  Hope that helps at least one person out there considering buying a 
  laminator and not sure what model may or may not be suitable.

  Cheers....Dean.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Jack...and all. As I mentioned...according to the web-site they 
made NO modifications to the unit. Since they were advetizing the 
machine NOT as a laminator but SPECIFICALLY as a unit to FUSE Toner 
to a PCB, I can only ASSUME (and you know what they say about that) 
that indeed this model IS acceptable for PCB laminates. Having said 
that we all know that PCB's come in many weights and there certainly 
is the CHANCE that you may find a thickness that is TOO BIG for the 
Ducuseal, but I'm guessing that would be the extreme case.

 I'll do some searching after lunch and see if I can fnd the original 
site and I'll pass the link on for you all to read.


Till then....cheers...Dean.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Greene" <greeneaz@e...> 
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>     I have looked at laminators and am concerned that even the GBC 
Docuseal 95 you mentioned seem to have a 5 mil spec. on thickness. Is 
this a problem or will they take pcb material?
> 
> Thanks - Jack

Hmmm, the dyna-art website says
  "
Three internal parts are modified to make this device work for all PCB 
thicknesses.
"

I've used the older laminator that dynart used to sell. IIRC, they used to 
change a couple of gears to slow the unit down, and perhaps changed the 
springs that pressed the rollers and the heating plate together.  I've used 
a few different laminators  over the years. Usually older badge version 
that I picked up at flea markets for $20. They all worked fine for all pcb 
material thicknesses, with the exception of of some REALLY thick stuff I 
had laying around.

  Laminators seem a little expensive to me for what they are, I usually try 
to find them used. But they do make the whole toner transfer system work. I 
can't believe anybody ever got reproducible results with a clothes iron (I 
never did).

  And another link to my projects page with my TTS experiences:
http://users.rcn.com/carlott/projects.html


-carl






At 06:05 PM 10/28/2003, you wrote:

>Hello Jack...and all. As I mentioned...according to the web-site they
>made NO modifications to the unit. Since they were advetizing the
>machine NOT as a laminator but SPECIFICALLY as a unit to FUSE Toner
>to a PCB, I can only ASSUME (and you know what they say about that)
>that indeed this model IS acceptable for PCB laminates. Having said
>that we all know that PCB's come in many weights and there certainly
>is the CHANCE that you may find a thickness that is TOO BIG for the
>Ducuseal, but I'm guessing that would be the extreme case.
>
>  I'll do some searching after lunch and see if I can fnd the original
>site and I'll pass the link on for you all to read.
>
>
>Till then....cheers...Dean.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Henry Carl Ott <carlott@i...> 
wrote:
> Hmmm, the dyna-art website says
>   "
> Three internal parts are modified to make this device work for all 
PCB 
> thicknesses.
> "

yup, and they listed the speed the board feeds thru too.  for those 
who want to re-invent the wheel or modify a second hand unit.

Dave

Dean Batute wrote:
> Hello all,
>        Like many of you, I've had great success with the Direct toner 
> method. Unless I'm mistaken I was the FIRST to suggest the use of 
> sheets from magazines as a souce of the paper ( I did EXTENSIVE 
> research on the net for a couple of months looking for suggestions as 
> to what brand of photo paper to use and not once did I see anyone 
> else suggest magazine stock at that time! ).

wheedal99 wrote:
 > Really, the method works (with a laminator).  I'm familliar with the



   But, again, remember that you guys had a reason that made you believe 
you needed to GET a laminator.  You were clearly not getting the results 
I'm getting with the ease I'm getting with what you're doing.  The 
thought of getting a laminator doesn't even enter my mind for most 
boards now at all.  The ironing I'm doing isn't anywhere near as 
critical as it was before, and just isn't that time consuming.  Not that 
I wouldn't get one if I were doing many foot wide boards, but for most 
6" by 8" or so boards it simply isn't necessary.


   Looks like I need to make a small video in real time to give the dyed 
in the wool people who are already doing some more complex variation of 
toner transfer the right idea.  Most people simply WON'T need the extra 
stuff you guys are swearing by as needed to get good results.  NO need 
for a laminator, NO need for several dollar a page paper.  50 cents a 
page paper, and an iron.  The whole point of what I posted was that it 
makes it much easier and better, and you don't need the extra junk at 
all to get good results.  It's even worth the small cost per page for 
most people vs free magazine paper to not have the extra cost of a 
laminator and have something extra laying around, most already have an 
iron and it's excellent by itself unless they're doing a lot of boards. 
  I'm getting ready to do some AMD28F800 flash boards, so I'll tape what 
I'm doing and put it up.  A little bit of video will speak ten times 
better than my typing about the relative lack of need for a laminator..

Alan

> I'm getting ready to do some AMD28F800 flash boards, so I'll tape what 
>I'm doing and put it up.  A little bit of video will speak ten times 
>better than my typing about the relative lack of need for a laminator..
>
>Alan

I'm not doing toner transfer but I'm often asked questions about it
here from local people who are interested in this method. So, even I
am interested to see your video :)

Thanks in advance for your efforts.

Markus

PS: should you need asistance with creating the video so as it can be
downloaded (encoding, captureing etc.) feel free to get back to me off
list.

tape would be very great.

Thanks

Stefan

> > Hello all,
> >        Like many of you, I've had great success with the Direct 
toner 
> > method. Unless I'm mistaken I was the FIRST to suggest the use of 
> > sheets from magazines as a souce of the paper ( I did EXTENSIVE 
> > research on the net for a couple of months looking for 

> 
> 
>    But, again, remember that you guys had a reason that made you 
believe 
> you needed to GET a laminator.  You were clearly not getting the 
results 
>
Thats right, I needed to get consistancy to get anywhere near the 
resolution I'm getting now with the laminator.  I tried a few years 
ago to make several different papers work with a clothes iron 
(dynart, transparencies, sticker backer board, gelatin coated papers, 
elmers glue coated paper, inkjet photo paper, and yes even magazine 
paper --all at suggestions from other people on other usegroups at 
the time) with limited success.  I could do small boards with fairly 
coarse resolutions, but I finally went back to the tried and true 
photoresist method.  I like many people wasen't willing to stick with 
it for just something that I could only successfully build smt adaper 
and carrier boards.  Obviously other people where getting better 
results but I couldn't reproduce them.  

The laminator got me to revisit the method when I didn't have coated 
boards handy and to my pleasant suprise it worked great.  The 
laminator limited the amount of technique required to get the toner 
transfer to work (for me).  I was able to produce very complex boards 
with it.  If you get it right, you don't need to do *any* touchup.  
The laminator may be a crutch, but it can simplify your life 
greatly.  YMMV, but the laminator worked better for me.  You can get 
them new from $29 on up (the Royal Sovereign I use is ~$70; so to me 
its a no brainer.  Others will disagree.

That said, I think the clothes iron video would be a great idea.  
Many people don't have access or the funds to use a paper laminator.  
It's always handy to see what works for other people.

Bring up an old thread on laminators, I think that the three modified 
parts are the tension springs, arms, and plate. However, the 
combination of tension chagnes leads me to belive that the tension on 
the arms was tightened and the springs were loosened allowing 
variable thicknesses to enter but keeping the pressure on the board 
the same as it runs through the rollers. I plan on getting an 
unmodified laminator and testing it out. 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Henry Carl Ott <carlott@i...> 
> wrote:
> > Hmmm, the dyna-art website says
> >   "
> > Three internal parts are modified to make this device work for 
all 

> PCB 
> > thicknesses.
> > "
> 
> yup, and they listed the speed the board feeds thru too.  for those 
> who want to re-invent the wheel or modify a second hand unit.
> 
> Dave

On 31/1/04 09:05, gmanca101 at gmanca101@... wrote:

> Bring up an old thread on laminators, I think that the three modified
> parts are the tension springs, arms, and plate. However, the

Trimmed and bottom-posted.

Beware that home laminators may not reach a high enough temp to successfully
transfer toner from the carrier sheet to the copper.

My experiments show that simply bypassing the thermostat didn't work,
possibly due to some over-temperature switch. YMMV.

-- 
Cheers,

Derryck

Hi friends ,

               Thank you so much for the reply . I was wondering how do you actually calculate the width of the trace specially for high currents ( say 30A ) and high frequencies .

                          

Yahoo! India Mobile: Ringtones, Wallpapers, Picture Messages and more.Download now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 02:19:42 +0000 (GMT), jagjot singh 
<mundasocute2000@...> wrote:

>
> Hi friends ,
>
>                Thank you so much for the reply . I was wondering how do 
> you actually calculate the width of the trace specially for high 
> currents ( say 30A ) and high frequencies .
>
>

there are two parameters, one is the heat generated and the other one is 
the voltage drop.

obviously the heat will destroy the track if too much, you can simply 
calculate with the resistance
of copper or use the tables. you want loads of security margin here.

Also keep in mind that thin traces can act as a fuse. It has already saved 
me some valuable
components this way. but the fuse is ugly after it is needed and not 
replaceable.


Voltage drop: in some occasions the voltage drop is more important, if you 
do the circuit
design yourself then you know where this is important. calculate with 
resistance and current.

<http://www.eese.bee.qut.edu.au/students/protel/pcb_manufacture.shtml>

here you can see one chart for track width.

I have the habit of soldering additional copper wire on a really high 
current track.


High frequencys:

the skin effect is not a problem because the track is broad (and thin) i 
think.

look here

<http://www.polarinstruments.com/support/cits/AP171.html>

Make no antennas, keep inside area of loops small.



Always use plenty of security margin!


good luck

ST

I use the toner transfer method with magazine paper and it works 
pretty decent.  I use an unmodified GBC-95 but I also use one more 
step.  I print (on a HP-5P @ 600dpi) to a chunk of mag paper (4Wheel 
& Offroad Mag) fixed to a normal chunk of paper with some avery 
labels.  I then cut the image out and use label material to fix the 
top of the mag image to the pcb and run it through the laminator a 
couple of times.  

I then put the pcb on a iron that is upside down held in a vice(the 
pcb is copper and pattern side up) I leave the pcb on there for 
about 15-30 seconds while holding it down with some tweezers in 
places where there is no toner so everything heats uniformly. 

I then take it off and run it through the laminator another 4-5 
times, soak it for about 30 seconds and then remove the paper slowly 
under water and use a type of scotch pad with minimal pressure to 
remove the rest of the paper..  Then etch as normal.


Here are a few test etch's:

(The pics aren't the greatist nor do they give the etchings very 
much justice)

Copper perimeter size is about 0.30"x0.34" in actual size:

This one has 0.009" traces plotted on a 0.02" grid:
http://www.rescyou.com/pcb/009x02.gif

This one has 0.003" traces plotted on a 0.02" grid:
http://www.rescyou.com/pcb/003x02.gif

This one has 0.001" traces plotted on a 0.02" grid:
http://www.rescyou.com/pcb/001x02.gif


Copper perimeter size is about 0.34" x 0.23" in actual size

This one has 0.003" traces plotted on a 0.01" grid:
http://www.rescyou.com/pcb/003x01.gif

These were etched on to some of the cheapest, low grade garbage-type 
pcb blanks, so the results are pretty decent given the medium.

0.001" traces are about the limit and stuff starts degrading bad 
after that.  I've yet to have a bad transfer using this method.

Resc.

 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...> 
wrote:
> On 31/1/04 09:05, gmanca101 at gmanca101@y... wrote:
> 
> > Bring up an old thread on laminators, I think that the three 
modified
> > parts are the tension springs, arms, and plate. However, the
> 
> Trimmed and bottom-posted.
> 
> Beware that home laminators may not reach a high enough temp to 
successfully
> transfer toner from the carrier sheet to the copper.
> 
> My experiments show that simply bypassing the thermostat didn't 
work,

> possibly due to some over-temperature switch. YMMV.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Derryck

On 6/2/04 05:55, rescme1 at alram2@... wrote:

> Here are a few test etch's:

Not at all bad - this is probably the best anyone will get with this sort of
laminator. Less  fiddly than the photo resist route as well, which was my
goal.

-- 
Cheers,

Derryck

I was going to use the photo-method as most of my stuff is in smd 
but ever since I got this perfected I think I'm gonna stay with the 
toner method.  The key point about this way is putting the pcb on 
the iron and heating it up half way through the process.  I also 
insert the pcb's diagonally so that more heat is transfered to more 
area on the pcb.

I do another thing that works good...sometimes...for the large 
copper areas.  Prior to mag-paper-pattern on the pcb I put the 
magazine paper with the toner pattern on the iron (toner side up)and 
heat it up until the toner gets glossy, this helps with the porosity 
issues sometimes and sometimes helps with distribute the toner a bit 
in the large areas.

Does anyone know of a test standard for pcb traces etc. so that we 
could compare results of the different methods?

Resc.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...> 
wrote:
> On 6/2/04 05:55, rescme1 at alram2@h... wrote:
> 
> > Here are a few test etch's:
> 
> Not at all bad - this is probably the best anyone will get with 
this sort of
> laminator. Less  fiddly than the photo resist route as well, which 
was my

> goal.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Derryck

I would like to make some semi-scientific testing of this stuff.
due to the more recent problems i really need to do the testing,
no way around.

what do you think are proper methods?
do you think etching of the boards is required for testing?
i can certainly see some of the faults before etching after removing the 
paper.
i have problems with brittle toner, but i also discovered "etching 
through"/underetching
in some areas (preferably large pads), where the etchant obviously comes 
in
contact with copper it should never see.
it is not etched away completely, but the dull red, you surely know. i 
don't like this.
I thik one might not see this before etching.


I will fire up the fuser unit, i will design a thermostat for it this 
instant.
(may put one of these newly aquired solid state relays to use...)

////
talking of the new stuff..

Is anyone here who has experience with IGBTs? i need know if i can connect
the transistors of a IGBT module in parallel and what to do with the gate 
signals.
i want to use a 6 igbt 70A module as one big igbt, i figure i can use
either the upper 3 or lower 3 transistors, if anyone knows about IGBTs i 
would
very appreciate a email, because it is not exactly list stuff i think.
thank you.

back to on topic
////

so i have one HP LJ, one clothes iron, one digital thermometer with small 
probe,
one copier fuser unit with adjustable temperature and pressure, one really 
big
box of pcb stock, and the photo paper which did work in the past already.

How to go about this?
How would you do the testing?

ST

well, at least one thing went pretty well today...
the temperature controller is operating.
just one transistor and a trimmer resistor needed, works good with the
solid state relais. at the moment it is switching full wave
(the solid state relais is one with zero crossing detection)
but i guess this would be no work to convert to phase angle control.

so if anyone wants to run a fuser out of the printer/copier, no problem at 
all.

now i will look at the spring mechanism (how to adjust) and for a drive 
motor i will
use a slow power drill for now....

BUT, i really doubt that this fuser is the solution to all problems...

ST