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2016-01-25 by palciatore@...
2016-01-25 by Jean-Paul Louis
The resolution of a 3D printer will not be good enough for fine pitch components. A 0.4 mm nozzle will extrude a 0.4mm tube of melted plastic. That will be your minimum trace (about 16mil). if you squish it onto the PCB, the trace will grow probably about 20mil. If your PCB can accept these constraints, using PLA might work for you. To remove it, just wipe it out with acetone. Just my $0.02, Jean-Paul N1JPL
> On Jan 25, 2016, at 2:32 PM, palciatore@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I don't know if it has been discussed before, but has anyone ever used a 3D printer to deposit a layer of plastic on a circuit board to use as the pattern for etching? It seems to me that this may be an easy way to do this as no extra steps would be needed, just print and etch. > > If so, how did it work? And how did they remove the plastic after the etch? > > > > > > >
2016-01-25 by Bob Butcher
-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 1/25/16, palciatore@gt.rr.com [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plastic Resist From 3D Printer?
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 25, 2016, 12:32 PM
I think ;this could work if the resolution is good enough. I have tried a variety of things for etch resist, from electrical tape to spray paint and indelible marker ink. Most of these are kind of difficult to apply where you want them, and only the spray paint really worked well at preventing etching. One idea someone came up with was using a CNC vinyl cutter to produce a pattern that could be stuck on. Certainly worth a try!
Bob
I don't know if it has been discussed before,
but has anyone ever used a 3D printer to deposit a layer of
plastic on a circuit board to use as the pattern for
etching? It seems to me that this may be an easy way to do
this as no extra steps would be needed, just print and etch.
If so, how did it work?
And how did they remove the plastic after the etch?
#yiv1214292761 #yiv1214292761 --2016-01-26 by Brad Thompson
On 1/25/2016 2:52 PM, Bob Butcher bbutcher85@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 1/25/16, palciatore@... [Homebrew_PCBs] > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plastic Resist From 3D Printer? > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 25, 2016, 12:32 PM > > I think ;this could work if the resolution is good enough. I have > tried a variety of things for etch resist, from electrical tape to > spray paint and indelible marker ink. Most of these are kind of > difficult to apply where you want them, and only the spray paint > really worked well at preventing etching. One idea someone came up > with was using a CNC vinyl cutter to produce a pattern that could be > stuck on. Certainly worth a try! > > Bob > Hello-- Not knowing anything about the vinyl mask method of PC board fabrication, I went looking and found an explanation on Instructables: http://www.instructables.com/id/Fast-and-Easy-PCB-Prototyping-with-Vinyl/ Reading down in the comment stream, I noted this: "...I have tried the laser ablation method and it works wonders. I just cover my board with matt spray paint up to 3 coats and then laser etch away the color that needs to be exposed as copper. The success of this process [vinyl mask] is highly dependant on a good solid stickiness of vinyl to copper. on straight planar surfaces, its never a problem, but its worthwhile to recheck that it has no bubbles. vinyl is also stretchy when a little heat is applied, so make sure you don't squeege it too hard. as an alternate, can we have the opposite parts weeded so that tracks are exposed, then spray paint as a stencil, remove the vinyl and then etch?...." (comment by rupin.chheda) One thing that's unclear (and likely hardware-dependent) is the minimum trace width and pad spacing capability of this method for consistent results. Based on example photos, DIP layouts seem feasible. Has anyone in the group tried this method? 73-- Brad AA1IP
2016-01-26 by Jeff Heiss
The unknown question is what type of laser and what power. This gentleman is using a UV laser and documenting his progress. http://gabuleu.blogspot.com/
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 10:40 PM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Vinyl mask, laser paint removal (was:Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plastic Resist From 3D Printer?) On 1/25/2016 2:52 PM, Bob Butcher bbutcher85@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 1/25/16, palciatore@... [Homebrew_PCBs] > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Plastic Resist From 3D Printer? > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 25, 2016, 12:32 PM > > I think ;this could work if the resolution is good enough. I have > tried a variety of things for etch resist, from electrical tape to > spray paint and indelible marker ink. Most of these are kind of > difficult to apply where you want them, and only the spray paint > really worked well at preventing etching. One idea someone came up > with was using a CNC vinyl cutter to produce a pattern that could be > stuck on. Certainly worth a try! > > Bob > Hello-- Not knowing anything about the vinyl mask method of PC board fabrication, I went looking and found an explanation on Instructables: http://www.instructables.com/id/Fast-and-Easy-PCB-Prototyping-with-Vinyl/ Reading down in the comment stream, I noted this: "...I have tried the laser ablation method and it works wonders. I just cover my board with matt spray paint up to 3 coats and then laser etch away the color that needs to be exposed as copper. The success of this process [vinyl mask] is highly dependant on a good solid stickiness of vinyl to copper. on straight planar surfaces, its never a problem, but its worthwhile to recheck that it has no bubbles. vinyl is also stretchy when a little heat is applied, so make sure you don't squeege it too hard. as an alternate, can we have the opposite parts weeded so that tracks are exposed, then spray paint as a stencil, remove the vinyl and then etch?...." (comment by rupin.chheda) One thing that's unclear (and likely hardware-dependent) is the minimum trace width and pad spacing capability of this method for consistent results. Based on example photos, DIP layouts seem feasible. Has anyone in the group tried this method? 73-- Brad AA1IP
2016-02-20 by mountaindog65@...
are using extrudable conductive ink and claim to be able to make multilayer boards with their method. If one is going to go to 3D print may as well go one further and play with conductive ink. No, I don't have any connection to them. Just ran across the video the other day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqcAm7xGWJM
I do have reservation of thought on the use of conductive ink in high speed / high amp circuits but it may have limited application I guess in some circuit situations. Cheers !
2016-02-21 by Dennis Shelgren
3D print might be feasible but IMHO lots of experimentation info is lacking. For example, these guys
are using extrudable conductive ink and claim to be able to make multilayer boards with their method. If one is going to go to 3D print may as well go one further and play with conductive ink. No, I don't have any connection to them. Just ran across the video the other day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqcAm7xGWJM
I do have reservation of thought on the use of conductive ink in high speed / high amp circuits but it may have limited application I guess in some circuit situations. Cheers !
2016-02-21 by Jeff Heiss
<I'd love to have a "real" pcb printer and may have one in my very near future. For those that don't know these are cutting/laminating machines that create multilayer boards on demand just like a printer.> I didn’t follow what this is. Can you provide a link?
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 10:09 PM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Plastic Resist From 3D Printer? I've got a fairly high end 3d printer and could probably print fine enough for pcb resist. The trouble I see is keeping everything at the same temperature so that the material would stick. I wouldn't bother at all with PLA, I'd go with ABS because it can be dissolved with acetone and seems to print more accurately. I've printed things that had to have things dissolved off after, and had to switch filaments etc. It's definitely possible, but realize that you'd probably have to print more than one layer just to fill in the gaps. There might also be a need to bake the board afterward to really insure a bond to the copper. Also most very thin and flat things will warp and pull away from the substrate unless everything is exactly the right temperature. A super heated board and two layers could make a stable print. I've done down to .1mm nozzle, but the actual print "line" is thicker than that as the point of 3d printing is to "squish" the filament to the last layer for proper adhesion. I could easily imagine this working for through hole, but not necessarily fine pitched smt. I'm currently doing experiments myself in making SMT stencils with a cheap chinese laser engraver/cutter. I still rely on either good old photo boards, or for the really heavy stuff(50+amps) milling the board. Although for almost any prototype I still use wirewrap gear and point to point soldering. I'd love to have a "real" pcb printer and may have one in my very near future. For those that don't know these are cutting/laminating machines that create multilayer boards on demand just like a printer. In the mean time I've got a couple identical epsons that need some modification for direct board prints. On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 10:16 AM, mountaindog65@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: 3D print might be feasible but IMHO lots of experimentation info is lacking. For example, these guys are using extrudable conductive ink and claim to be able to make multilayer boards with their method. If one is going to go to 3D print may as well go one further and play with conductive ink. No, I don't have any connection to them. Just ran across the video the other day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqcAm7xGWJM I do have reservation of thought on the use of conductive ink in high speed / high amp circuits but it may have limited application I guess in some circuit situations. Cheers !
2016-02-21 by Dennis Shelgren
If you've seen the LPKF units, it's just all the steps in a single machine. I.e. it mills, drills and exposes prepregs. Etches if necessary. Then indexes and presses. Then a via chemical process. I've noticed most of the via guns have disappeared from most sources.
Years back when I used one the machine would "leak" vias out the bottom. At least with the chemical process there is no need for funky barreling or flaring tooling.
I didn’t follow what this is. Can you provide a link?
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 10:09 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Plastic Resist From 3D Printer?
I've got a fairly high end 3d printer and could probably print fine enough for pcb resist. The trouble I see is keeping everything at the same temperature so that the material would stick. I wouldn't bother at all with PLA, I'd go with ABS because it can be dissolved with acetone and seems to print more accurately. I've printed things that had to have things dissolved off after, and had to switch filaments etc. It's definitely possible, but realize that you'd probably have to print more than one layer just to fill in the gaps. There might also be a need to bake the board afterward to really insure a bond to the copper. Also most very thin and flat things will warp and pull away from the substrate unless everything is exactly the right temperature. A super heated board and two layers could make a stable print. I've done down to .1mm nozzle, but the actual print "line" is thicker than that as the point of 3d printing is to "squish" the filament to the last layer for proper adhesion. I could easily imagine this working for through hole, but not necessarily fine pitched smt. I'm currently doing experiments myself in making SMT stencils with a cheap chinese laser engraver/cutter. I still rely on either good old photo boards, or for the really heavy stuff(50+amps) milling the board. Although for almost any prototype I still use wirewrap gear and point to point soldering. I'd love to have a "real" pcb printer and may have one in my very near future. For those that don't know these are cutting/laminating machines that create multilayer boards on demand just like a printer. In the mean time I've got a couple identical epsons that need some modification for direct board prints.
On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 10:16 AM, mountaindog65@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
3D print might be feasible but IMHO lots of experimentation info is lacking. For example, these guys
are using extrudable conductive ink and claim to be able to make multilayer boards with their method. If one is going to go to 3D print may as well go one further and play with conductive ink. No, I don't have any connection to them. Just ran across the video the other day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqcAm7xGWJM
I do have reservation of thought on the use of conductive ink in high speed / high amp circuits but it may have limited application I guess in some circuit situations. Cheers !