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2004-07-29 by StevenManzer
Hi Everyone, It has been a while since I made some circuit boards, and I can not rememember what I used to clean the blank pcb prior to ironing on the toner. What do you suggest for cleaning the board (Isopropyl Alcohol, Varsol, Paint Thinner, Methol Hydrate, or something else)? Thanks for your help. Steve
2004-07-29 by mikezcnc
Steve, I tested that on new blanks from ebay and I used a scouring pad for dishes (the green plastic one) and dish soap. It stuck like a dream. Few times in 90 deg directions. I know that old boards are more stubborn. I have a batch of old boards and they are best cleand using a palm sander first because of heavy oxidation and not compeltely flat copper. Hope it helps. Miek --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "StevenManzer" <smanzer@m...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone, > > It has been a while since I made some circuit boards, and I can not > rememember what I used to clean the blank pcb prior to ironing on > the toner. > > What do you suggest for cleaning the board (Isopropyl Alcohol, > Varsol, Paint Thinner, Methol Hydrate, or something else)? > > Thanks for your help. > > Steve
2004-07-29 by Stefan Trethan
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:05:11 -0000, StevenManzer <smanzer@...> wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > It has been a while since I made some circuit boards, and I can not > rememember what I used to clean the blank pcb prior to ironing on > the toner. > > What do you suggest for cleaning the board (Isopropyl Alcohol, > Varsol, Paint Thinner, Methol Hydrate, or something else)? > > Thanks for your help. > > Steve > > i use 600grit paper and then IPA or acetone. Steel wool works too, various scotch-brite products as well, as do these abrasive pads. But the solvent cleaning is a must. I had trouble with paint thinner, but it might have been a contaminated bottle (e.g. greasy rag -- TIP: mount a small outlet (2mm) on the can/bottle lid. (cutoff bike valves are great 'cause they have a rubber cap). when wetting a rag now nothing can get back into the bottle (drip on the rag)). ST
2004-07-30 by Richard Mustakos
I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them with detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the toner to stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't clean the oils off? Does it leave it's own coating? Richard
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
That question puzzled me, too. Originally I used a cigarette lighter fluid (european Benzine) which always removed something 'dirty' afer having used the dish washer soap (detergent). On a similar subject I read somwhere, maybe even on this board, that a paper towel leaves silicon dilms on board. Talking to a paper eengineer did not confirm it though. What is IPA? Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mustakos <rmustakos@a...> wrote: > I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them with > detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the toner to > stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't clean the > oils off? Does it leave it's own coating? > Richard
2004-07-30 by Phil
That's my experience, too. I use emery cloth (600 grit) as well as a good detergent scrub and IPA (isopropyl alcohol or India Pale Ale - I like 'em both). I always assumed that the soap leaves a residue that decreases the bonding. Also some soaps/detergents have lanolin in them and that is way bad for bonding toner. I believe the emery cloth creates more surface area for the toner to bond to. My results improved significantly with that. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mustakos <rmustakos@a...> wrote: > I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them with > detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the toner to > stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't clean the > oils off? Does it leave it's own coating? > Richard
2004-07-30 by rmustakos
Mike Thanks for answering. IPA is isopropal alcohol, but I have to think too hard to try to spell that, and I saw someone else just writing IPA, so I helped push the bandwagon.
Does the rest of your anwser ("Originally ...") mean that now you:
1) rinse it with benzine and let it air dry,
2) wet a _cloth_ rag with benzine and wipe the board down,
3) douse it with benzine and burn off the film,
4) do something different, now?
thanks
Richard
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:> That question puzzled me, too. Originally I used a cigarette lighter > fluid (european Benzine) which always removed something 'dirty' afer > having used the dish washer soap (detergent). On a similar subject I > read somwhere, maybe even on this board, that a paper towel leaves > silicon dilms on board. Talking to a paper eengineer did not confirm > it though. > > What is IPA? > > Mike
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote: > That's my experience, too. I use emery cloth (600 grit) as well as a > good detergent scrub and IPA (isopropyl alcohol or India Pale Ale - I > like 'em both). I always assumed that the soap leaves a residue that > decreases the bonding. Also some soaps/detergents have lanolin in > them and that is way bad for bonding toner. > > I believe the emery cloth creates more surface area for the toner to > bond to. My results improved significantly with that. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mustakos > <rmustakos@a...> wrote: > > I have scrubbed the surface of boards , and washed them with > > detergents, but until I used IPA, I was never able to get the toner
> to > > stick reliably. Does anyone know why the detergent doesn't clean > the > > oils off? Does it leave it's own coating? > > Richard
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
Richard,
I like simple and easy life and I don't like cleaning PCBs at all. In
fact, when I was using all kinds of 'secret' papers (Ihave a foot
high pile of all kinds of exotic papers suggested for inkjets and
lasers) with a hot iron, I cleaned my PCBs in numerous nad complex
ways, including an 18th century secret preactivation of copper... not
anymore. Don't need to. First, I use clean boards from ebay, they are
new or at least look like new that means they are not oxidized like
some old phenolic boards I inherited from a Woodstock engineer.
So my cleanup is following
1. Wash the PCB with dish soap (few drops) rubbed with paper towel.
Do it few times and if both sided, do the both sides, finally it's
your laminator... Then wash well under warm water. Dry it outwith
sheet of paper towel.
2. Clean with a green, kitchen, scouring pad. It is that thin spnge
like pad, that is made of some fiber, not metal. It has abrasive
properties. Clean in diagonal directions, methodically, doesn't have
to be excessive, just make sure you have that fine and visible 'grid'
from abrasive surface.
3. Clean with dish soap, wash with water and dry with paper.
That;'s it, just don't touch the surface.
4. Stefan suggested to 'preshrink' the paper and run it first thru
the laminator and I think it will work but we don't know that. That
would be a nice improvement if it works.
5. I do not use 'Bnzine' anymore as I don't know anymore what those
chemicals do additionally. I remember vaguely htat during my initial
test with other papers I ws not too happy with the results. Of
course, if you have a dirty board than I would use it.
6. As far as using IPA (isopropyl alcohole) I see no reason for it.
Alcohol does not dissolve fat. Period. It may smear or make some new
compound, but I don't thinkit makes any sens from chemical point of
view. If thre are anychemists on board, please comment on it, what
does isopropyl alcohol do to cleaning copper surface? I don't think
it does anything except for 'smearing'.
Good luck,
Mike
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rmustakos" <rmustakos@a...>
wrote:
> Mike Thanks for answering. IPA is isopropal alcohol, but I have to
think too hard to try to spell that, and I saw someone else just
writing IPA, so I helped push the bandwagon.
> Does the rest of your anwser ("Originally ...") mean that now you:
> 1) rinse it with benzine and let it air dry,
> 2) wet a _cloth_ rag with benzine and wipe the board down,
> 3) douse it with benzine and burn off the film,
> 4) do something different, now?
> thanks
> Richard
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>
wrote:
> > That question puzzled me, too. Originally I used a cigarette
lighter
> > fluid (european Benzine) which always removed something 'dirty'
afer
> > having used the dish washer soap (detergent). On a similar
subject I
> > read somwhere, maybe even on this board, that a paper towel
leaves
> > silicon dilms on board. Talking to a paper eengineer did not
confirm > > it though. > > > > What is IPA? > > > > Mike
2004-07-30 by Leon Heller
----- Original Message -----
From: "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 3:38 AM Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What cleaner to use for preparing for TT > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. It's one of the safest solvents around: http://www.dek.com/data/wipes_data.pdf Leon
2004-07-30 by Phil
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote: > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. > > Mike > Is that true?? Isn't that what's in rubbing alcohol?
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote: > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. > > Mike Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol). NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though). ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:07:34 -0000, rmustakos <rmustakos@...> wrote:
> Mike Thanks for answering. IPA is isopropal alcohol, but I have to
> think too hard to try to spell that, and I saw someone else just writing
> IPA, so I helped push the bandwagon.
> Does the rest of your anwser ("Originally ...") mean that now you:
> 1) rinse it with benzine and let it air dry,
> 2) wet a _cloth_ rag with benzine and wipe the board down,
> 3) douse it with benzine and burn off the film,
> 4) do something different, now?
> thanks
> Richard
>
polish the surface with paper.
take a paper towel and wet one edge with IPA (not carcinognic like
benzin and no oils in it) and wipe the board.
wet anther edge and wipe the board one stroke across. (to get the rest
surely off).
let dry on air.
ST2004-07-30 by Norman Stewart
Excuse the ignorance - I'm just returning to PC board fabrication after a long absence. Years ago, when I was using Kepro and Kodak photoresists, the best way I found to clean a board was with a chlorinated scouring powder (Comet comes to mind). This left a bright, very mildly abraded surface that had no problem supporting an unbroken film of water, and when dried, took the liquid photoresist nicely. Is this completely outdated, or not applicable for the toner transfer methods? Norm
2004-07-30 by Steve
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote: > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. > > > > Mike > > > > Is that true?? Isn't that what's in rubbing alcohol? Isopropyl Alcohol -is- rubbing alcohol. Rated by percent of alcohol vs water. Witch Hazel is rubbing alcohol aka IPA with extra junk tossed in. The only thing I recall from the MSDS sheet was a warning that it can "defat" the skin. IE, wash the oils out and dry it out. If you use 99% IPA, it dries much quicker from the board. Steve
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Stewart" <normstewart@a...> wrote: > Excuse the ignorance - I'm just returning to PC board fabrication after a > long absence. Years ago, when I was using Kepro and Kodak photoresists, the > best way I found to clean a board was with a chlorinated scouring powder > (Comet comes to mind). This left a bright, very mildly abraded surface that > had no problem supporting an unbroken film of water, and when dried, took > the liquid photoresist nicely. Is this completely outdated, or not > applicable for the toner transfer methods? > > Norm It's what I use on anything that is not bright and shiny. My wife has some scouring powder in the bathroom and I just use my fingers and scrub the board with it. As you mentioned, when you have full sheeting action, the copper is free from oils and such. I think this is much less abrasive than those green pads. They are often stronger than sandpaper. Dave
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
> Isopropyl Alcohol -is- rubbing alcohol. Rated by percent of alcohol vs > water. > > Witch Hazel is rubbing alcohol aka IPA with extra junk tossed in. > > The only thing I recall from the MSDS sheet was a warning that it can > "defat" the skin. IE, wash the oils out and dry it out. > > If you use 99% IPA, it dries much quicker from the board. > > Steve > I have tried acetone, but somehow IPA seems to work slightly better. I'm trying to replace laquer thinner and similar products by IPA, ethanol, acetone where possible. The MSDS seem to agree those benzine based products are much more of a health hazard. There is some benzine based solvent called "testbenzin" here, which containes no benzol, and is said to be less hamful. I couldn't find out if that is true or not so far. IPA and acetone do pretty all you need, while IPA is plastic-safe acetone isn't. PE and PP are not attacked (it is in a PE bottle). But you can solvent-glue ABS and other plastics with acetone. The PCB epoxy is slightly attacked by it, which leads to "rubbing in" the toner if removing it with acetone. Laquer thinner didn't do this. (which is one reason why i'd like to know if the "testbenzin" is a health hazard.) ST
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
Yes it is. Here is just three links and there is a lot of it available on IPA. I'm glad I could help. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition .html http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm etc, etc. Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote: > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. > > > > Mike > > > > Is that true?? Isn't that what's in rubbing alcohol?
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise this issue. Mike http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition .html http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm etc, etc. There is more than that and worded stronger too. Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. > > > > Mike > > Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol). > NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though). > > ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
Ok Mike, On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:28:36 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote: > Yes it is. Here is just three links and there is a lot of it > available on IPA. I'm glad I could help. > http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition > .html error 404 > > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol can't open. It's not a webpage. > > http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm I may quote: >>>>> start Nevertheless, because of the concerns Dr. Clark has raised about the safety of externally applied isopropyl alcohol, we have tried to do our own independent research. What we have found is that, according to the best scientific data available at this time, isopropyl alcohol is not a carcinogen when used externally. Nasal cancers found in workers in factories where this type of alcohol is produced are due not to the isopropyl alcohol itself but to the strong acid used in its manufacture. The "Material Safety Data Sheet" on Hibiclens\ufffd (which contains isopropyl alcohol as a main ingredient) published by ICI Americas, Inc. states: The manufacture of isopropyl alcohol by the strong acid process is associated with paranasal sinus and laryngeal cancer in man. No other information or data have linked isopropyl alcohol with cancer.1 >>>>> end > > etc, etc. > > Mike > PLEASE. provide one working document (from a reliable source) that says it is carcinogenic and i will apologize for not believing you. I have checked several MSDS and NONE stated IPA is carcinogen. please research more carefully. ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:31:23 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote: > IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise > this issue. > > Mike > > http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition > .html with html it works, i may quote again: >>>>> start pidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl alcohol and paranasal sinus cancer; however, subsequent analysis suggests that the "strong-acid" process used to manufacture isopropyl alcohol may be responsible for these cancers [ACGIH 1991]. The International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that the evidence for the carcinogenicity of this process is adequate but that the evidence for isopropyl alcohol itself is inadequate [IARC 1987]. >>>> end I'm not gonna make it just use it - so no strong acid. > > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol > For you i went through the hassle of opening it with a text editor. I may quote >>>> There is no evidence that Isopropyl Alcohol is a carcinogen. I have quoted the last one already. Please, if you provide links to strengten your claim make sure they don't (all three) negate it. ST
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
This is a second link - it opens up for me fine:
Common Name: Isopropyl Alcohol
CAS Number: 67-63-0
DOT Number: UN 1219
Date: September, 1988
-----------------------------------------
HAZARD SUMMARY
* Isopropyl Alcohol can affect you when breathed in and by
passing through your skin.
* There is an increased risk of cancer associated with the
manufacturing of Isopropyl Alcohol.
* Exposure can cause irritation of the eyes, nose, mouth, and
throat.
* Overexposure may cause headaches, drowsiness, clumsiness,
unconsciousness, and death.
* Contact may irritate the skin. Repeated skin exposure can
cause itching, a rash, and drying and cracking.
* Isopropyl Alcohol is a FLAMMABLE LIQUID and a FIRE HAZARD.
IDENTIFICATION
Isopropyl Alcohol is a colorless liquid. Rubbing alcohol is a
solution of Isopropyl Alcohol. It is used as a solvent and in
making many commercial products.
REASON FOR CITATION
* Isopropyl Alcohol is on the Hazardous Substance List because
it is regulated by OSHA and cited by ACGIH, DOT, NFPA and EPA.
* This chemical is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List
because it is FLAMMABLE.
* Definitions are attached.
HOW TO DETERMINE IF YOU ARE BEING EXPOSED
* Exposure to hazardous substances should be routinely
evaluated. This may include collecting air samples. Under OSHA
1910.20, you have a legal right to obtain copies of sampling
results from your employer. If you think you are experiencing
any work related health problems, see a doctor trained to
recognize occupational diseases. Take this Fact Sheet with
you.
* ODOR THRESHOLD = 22 ppm.
* The odor threshold only serves as a warning of exposure. Not
smelling it does not mean you are not being exposed.
WORKPLACE EXPOSURE LIMITS
OSHA: The legal airborne permissible exposure limit (PEL) is
400 ppm averaged over an 8 hour workshift.
NIOSH: The recommended airborne exposure limit is 400 ppm
averaged over a 10 hour workshift and 800 ppm, not to be
exceeded during any 15 minute work period.
ACGIH: The recommended airborne exposure limit is 400 ppm
averaged over an 8 hour workshift and 500 ppm as a STEL
(short term exposure limit).
* The above exposure limits are for air levels only. When skin
contact also occurs, you may be overexposed, even though air
levels are less than the limits listed above.
WAYS OF REDUCING EXPOSURE
* Where possible, enclose operations and use local exhaust
ventilation at the site of chemical release. If local exhaust
ventilation or enclosure is not used, respirators should be
worn.
* Wear protective work clothing.
* Wash thoroughly immediately after exposure to Isopropyl
Alcohol and at the end of the workshift.
* Post hazard and warning information in the work area. In
addition, as part of an ongoing education and training effort,
communicate all information on the health and safety hazards
of Isopropyl Alcohol to potentially exposed workers.
This Fact Sheet is a summary source of information of all potential
and most severe health hazards that may result from exposure.
Duration of exposure, concentration of the substance and other
factors will affect your susceptibility to any of the potential
effects described below.
------------------------------------------
HEALTH HAZARD INFORMATION
Acute Health Effects
The following acute (short term) health effects may occur
immediately or shortly after exposure to Isopropyl Alcohol:
* It may irritate the skin, causing a rash or burning feeling on
contact.
* Exposure can irritate the eyes, nose, and throat.
* Overexposure to the vapor may cause headaches, drowsiness, a
loss of coordination, collapse, and death.
Chronic Health Effects
The following chronic (long term) health effects can occur at some
time after exposure to Isopropyl Alcohol and can last for months or
years:
Cancer Hazard
* There is an increased incidence of nasal sinus cancer in
workers involved in the manufacture of Isopropyl Alcohol by
the strong acid process. There is no evidence that Isopropyl
Alcohol is a carcinogen.
Reproductive Hazard
* According to the information presently available to the New
Jersey Department of Health, Isopropyl Alcohol has not been
tested for its ability to adversely affect reproduction.
Other Long Term Effects
* Skin exposure can cause itching, redness, and rashes in some
people. Repeated or prolonged exposure can cause dryness and
cracking of skin.
* This chemical has not been adequately evaluated to determine
whether brain or other nerve damage could occur with repeated
exposure. However, many solvents and other petroleum based
chemicals have been shown to cause such damage. Effects may
include reduced memory and concentration, personality changes
(withdrawal, irritability), fatigue, sleep disturbances,
reduced coordination, and/or effects on nerves supplying
internal organs (autonomic nerves) and/or nerves to the arms
and legs (weakness, "pins and needles").
MEDICAL TESTING
* There is no special test for this chemical. However, if
illness occurs or overexposure is suspected, medical attention
is recommended.
* Interview for brain effects, including recent memory, mood
(irritability, withdrawal), concentration, headaches, malaise
and altered sleep patterns. Consider cerebellar, autonomic and
peripheral nervous system evaluation. Positive and borderline
individuals should be referred for neuropsychological testing.
Mike
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Ok Mike,
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:28:36 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > Yes it is. Here is just three links and there is a lot of it
> > available on IPA. I'm glad I could help.
> >
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
> > .html
>
> error 404
>
> >
> > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
>
> can't open. It's not a webpage.
>
> >
> >
http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
>
> I may quote:
>
> >>>>> start
> Nevertheless, because of the concerns Dr. Clark has raised about
the
> safety of externally applied isopropyl alcohol, we have tried to do
our
> own independent research. What we have found is that, according to
the
> best scientific data available at this time, isopropyl alcohol is
not a
> carcinogen when used externally. Nasal cancers found in workers in
> factories where this type of alcohol is produced are due not to the
> isopropyl alcohol itself but to the strong acid used in its
manufacture.
> The "Material Safety Data Sheet" on Hibiclens® (which contains
isopropyl
> alcohol as a main ingredient) published by ICI Americas, Inc.
states:
> The manufacture of isopropyl alcohol by the strong acid process is
> associated with paranasal sinus and laryngeal cancer in man. No
other
> information or data have linked isopropyl alcohol with cancer.1
>
> >>>>> end
>
> >
> > etc, etc.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> PLEASE. provide one working document (from a reliable source) that
says> it is carcinogenic and i will apologize for not believing you. > > I have checked several MSDS and NONE stated IPA is carcinogen. > > please research more carefully. > > ST
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
Stefan, Like I said, I am not going to get into further discussion. I know it is and you know it isn't- I respect that. I provided three links and suggested that there is plenty more on internet but I did not want to get into discussion over mY THREE links- I jsut grabbed it what was at the top of the pile (rememeber the word 'semantics I used???) My purpose is not to do research and prove the thesis (or disapprove it). Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:31:23 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > > IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise > > this issue. > > > > Mike > > > > http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition > > .html > > with html it works, > i may quote again: > >>>>> start > pidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl alcohol > and paranasal sinus cancer; however, subsequent analysis suggests that the > "strong-acid" process used to manufacture isopropyl alcohol may be > responsible for these cancers [ACGIH 1991]. The International Agency for > Research on Cancer has concluded that the evidence for the carcinogenicity > of this process is adequate but that the evidence for isopropyl alcohol > itself is inadequate [IARC 1987]. > >>>> end > > I'm not gonna make it just use it - so no strong acid. > > > > > > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol > > > > For you i went through the hassle of opening it with a text editor. > I may quote > > >>>> There is no evidence that Isopropyl Alcohol is a carcinogen. > > > I have quoted the last one already. > Please, if you provide links to strengten your claim make sure they don't
> (all three) > negate it. > > ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:05:36 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote: > This is a second link - it opens up for me fine: Well, ok, i will delete all paragraphs not dealing with cancer. (so you see clearer) > * There is an increased risk of cancer associated with the > manufacturing of Isopropyl Alcohol. > > > > Cancer Hazard > * There is an increased incidence of nasal sinus cancer in > workers involved in the manufacture of Isopropyl Alcohol by > the strong acid process. There is no evidence that Isopropyl > Alcohol is a carcinogen. > You see, again, no carcinogen but the production is dangerous. please, read your own files. ST
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:09:43 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote: > Stefan, > > Like I said, I am not going to get into further discussion. I know it > is and you know it isn't- I respect that. I provided three links and > suggested that there is plenty more on internet but I did not want to > get into discussion over mY THREE links- I jsut grabbed it what was > at the top of the pile (rememeber the word 'semantics I used???) > My purpose is not to do research and prove the thesis (or disapprove > it). > > Mike Mike ;-) ANY link on the web says the same. EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself but the acid used int the production is. PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic? ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do. Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true. ST
2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
Stefan, Like I said the issue is dead for me, I am not interested in proving anything I write- too much time. I tried to steer people in the right direction and that's it. Whoever wants to run further with it, may do so. I enoyed this morning (for me) discussion because we have learned a lot on many subjects It is what it is for me and it is what it is for you and anybody interested in it. :) Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:09:43 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > > Stefan, > > > > Like I said, I am not going to get into further discussion. I know it > > is and you know it isn't- I respect that. I provided three links and > > suggested that there is plenty more on internet but I did not want to > > get into discussion over mY THREE links- I jsut grabbed it what was > > at the top of the pile (rememeber the word 'semantics I used???) > > My purpose is not to do research and prove the thesis (or disapprove
> > it). > > > > Mike > > Mike ;-) > > ANY link on the web says the same. > EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself > but the acid used int the production is. > > PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic? > ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do. > > Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true. > > ST
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise
> this issue.
>
> Mike
Seperate the MANUFACTURE of it from the USE of it.
I use it, not manufacture it.
each link provided clearly states that use of IPA is not
carcenogneic, but that the strong acids used in manufacturing it are.
I've quoted the section from each link you provided.
> http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
Cancer Hazard
* There is an increased incidence of nasal sinus cancer in
workers involved in the manufacture of Isopropyl Alcohol by
the strong acid process. There is no evidence that Isopropyl
Alcohol is a carcinogen.
>http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines
>/isopropylalcohol/recognition.html
Epidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl
alcohol and paranasal sinus cancer; however, subsequent analysis
suggests that the "strong-acid" process used to manufacture isopropyl
alcohol may be responsible for these cancers [ACGIH 1991].
>http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cf
m
What we have found is that, according to the best scientific data
available at this time, isopropyl alcohol is not a carcinogen when
used externally. Nasal cancers found in workers in factories where
this type of alcohol is produced are due not to the isopropyl alcohol
itself but to the strong acid used in its manufacture. The "Material
Safety Data Sheet" on Hibiclens® (which contains isopropyl alcohol as
a main ingredient) published by ICI Americas, Inc. states:
The manufacture of isopropyl alcohol by the strong acid process is
associated with paranasal sinus and laryngeal cancer in man. No other
information or data have linked isopropyl alcohol with cancer.1
Dave2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
> > ANY link on the web says the same. > EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself > but the acid used int the production is. > > PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic? > ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do. > > Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true. > Stefan, May I suggest you let well enough alone ? If one wanted to believe something and they have their mind made up, you cannot change it. I could make a case that food is carcenogenic. As research has shown, every single human that has ever had any form of cancer has eaten. Dave
2004-07-30 by Don Bradbury
Mike read the second site you posted right thru .it is not a carcinogen...... Don..
----- Original Message -----
From: mikezcnc
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:31 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What cleaner to use for preparing for TT
IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise
this issue.
Mike
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition
.html
http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol
http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm
etc, etc.
There is more than that and worded stronger too.
Mike
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol).
> NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though).
>
> ST
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
Dan, since you are new to this discussion I will repeat, that those are the links I just grabbed to show you there is something out there and that something is not fully kosher.. Dig for more, I already said that, and if you are happy with what you found that will be it for you - 100% Also, note the wbesite, 'paranoia'... I'm surprised nobody catht that one yet. Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Don Bradbury" <don282@d...> wrote: > Mike read the second site you posted right thru .it is not a carcinogen...... > Don.. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mikezcnc > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:31 PM > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What cleaner to use for preparing for TT > > > IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise > this issue. > > Mike > > http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition > .html > > http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol > > http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/isopropyl_alcohol.cfm > > etc, etc. > > There is more than that and worded stronger too. > > Mike > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:38:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > > > > IPA- carcinogenic. Please be careful with it. > > > > > > Mike > > > > Isopropylalcohol was what i meant (Isopropanol). > > NOT carcinogenic, (paint thinner and car petrol is though). > > > > ST > > > > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-07-30 by Dave Mucha
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Dan, since you are new to this discussion I will repeat, that those
> are the links I just grabbed to show you there is something out
there
> and that something is not fully kosher.. Dig for more, I already
said
> that, and if you are happy with what you found that will be it for
> you - 100%
Mike, the three sites all agreed that IPA is not carcenogenic.
the second site even listed the reason it is on the list.
quote :
* This chemical is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List
because it is FLAMMABLE.
end quote.
anything not fully kosher would be why there is no link on the
internet that links IPA to being a carcinogenic.
In this day of black helocopters and the perception of evil
government conspiricies, one would expect some sites to at least
claim there is a connection.
But, if you feel better believing that protection is needed, they you
are going to be safer than those of us who do not. Heck, If my
cigarette were to catch alchol on fire I could be in deep do-do.
Also, if you wear gloves and a mask, you are protected from other
things that we are not.
Or, better safe than sorry.
Personally I never use aluminum cooking utencils or coffee makers to
keep the total alumin in my body down. There is a reason, but I
forget.
Dave2004-07-30 by mikezcnc
Alzheimer... Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> wrote: > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > Dan, since you are new to this discussion I will repeat, that those > > are the links I just grabbed to show you there is something out > there > > and that something is not fully kosher.. Dig for more, I already > said > > that, and if you are happy with what you found that will be it for > > you - 100% > > Mike, the three sites all agreed that IPA is not carcenogenic. > > the second site even listed the reason it is on the list. > > quote : > > * This chemical is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List > because it is FLAMMABLE. > > end quote. > > anything not fully kosher would be why there is no link on the > internet that links IPA to being a carcinogenic. > > In this day of black helocopters and the perception of evil > government conspiricies, one would expect some sites to at least > claim there is a connection. > > But, if you feel better believing that protection is needed, they you > are going to be safer than those of us who do not. Heck, If my > cigarette were to catch alchol on fire I could be in deep do-do. > > Also, if you wear gloves and a mask, you are protected from other > things that we are not. > > Or, better safe than sorry. > > Personally I never use aluminum cooking utencils or coffee makers to
> keep the total alumin in my body down. There is a reason, but I > forget. > > Dave
2004-07-30 by Steve
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote: > IPA is carcinogenic, Stefan. I'm glad your post allowed me to raise > this issue. > > Mike > > http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/isopropylalcohol/recognition.html Not to minimize the dangers, which do exist, but the website you gave has this to say: "Mice exposed by inhalation to 3,000 ppm isopropyl alcohol for 5 days/week, 3 to 7 hours/day for 5 to 8 months did not develop tumors, and isopropyl alcohol skin painting and subcutaneous injection studies in mice also failed to demonstrate tumorigenic activity [Clayton and Clayton 1982]." And further: "Epidemiological studies suggested an association between isopropyl alcohol and paranasal sinus cancer; however, subsequent analysis suggests that the "strong-acid" process used to manufacture isopropyl alcohol may be responsible for these cancers [ACGIH 1991]. The International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that the evidence for the carcinogenicity of this process is adequate but that the evidence for isopropyl alcohol itself is inadequate [IARC 1987]" Like anything else, use caution, plenty of ventilation. IPA is absorbed through the skin and as always breathing it goes straight into the blood. Steve
2004-07-30 by Stefan Trethan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:26:13 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote: > > > > Stefan, > > Like I said the issue is dead for me, I am not interested in proving > anything I write- too much time. I tried to steer people in the right > direction and that's it. Whoever wants to run further with it, may do > so. I enoyed this morning (for me) discussion because we have learned > a lot on many subjects It is what it is for me and it is what it is > for you and anybody interested in it. :) Mike Well, for me the only thing of interest is the truth, and what is scientifically prooven. Opinions are nice but not necessarily true. If you believe IPA is carcinogenic i can't change it, but whenever you try to make other people think the same and i notice i'll do everything i can to show there is NO indication that it imight be carcinogenic. People who simply say "i don't talk about it any more 'cause what i think is what is important for me", well, if that's what you want... i thought we are here for learning. ST
2004-07-30 by Thomas P. Gootee
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:02 -0000
From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> Subject: Re: What cleaner -- IPA and MSDS > > ANY link on the web says the same. > EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself > but the acid used int the production is. > > PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic? > ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do. > > Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true. > Stefan, May I suggest you let well enough alone ? If one wanted to believe something and they have their mind made up, you cannot change it. I could make a case that food is carcenogenic. As research has shown, every single human that has ever had any form of cancer has eaten. Dave ----------- Dave, Welll...... Actually.... One of the most-carcinogenic substances on earth is called aflatoxin. It is a mold or fungus that grows naturally on CORN, while it's still in the cornfield. So watch out for those cornflakes and corndogs! Also, remember how dangerous pure water is. And breathing, too. (Breathing too much water can kill you!) By the way, I found out that FERRIC CHLORIDE is used by wastewater treatment plants, added to the water in HUGE quantities. Some of them use thousands of gallons of 50% solution per week. So don't let anyone tell you that Ferric Chloride is a "hazardous chemical". (Of course, AFTER it has the copper in it, from etching, then it's a whole different story, maybe.) What IS some peoples' "problem", with "man-made chemicals", anyway (as opposed to "natural" substances)? MANKIND is, itself, a part of Nature. So, therefore, EVERYTHING is "natural". i.e. A nuclear plant is no less a part of nature than a beaver dam. And who allowed the enviro-paranoid-whackos to co-opt the word "organic"? Didn't they ever hear of "organic chemistry"? Plastics and gasoline and coal are as "organic" as it gets! Hehe, Tom Gootee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-07-31 by mikezcnc
Tom, I am done with this subject. You missed my point when I suggestd for anybody curious like yourself, to do their own research. Please realize how carefully I am crafting this email not raise any further discussion. Do your own research if that subject interests you. I don't have a need for IPA in my process, as previously mentioned. Good luck. Mike --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee" <tomg@f...> wrote: > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:02 -0000 > From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> > Subject: Re: What cleaner -- IPA and MSDS > > > > > > ANY link on the web says the same. > > EVERY msds or other dicument says it is not carcinogenic itself > > but the acid used int the production is. > > > > PLEASE tell me WHY you are sure it is carcinogenic? > > ANY single piece of text (not written by you) would do. > > > > Believing something just for fun is not good, if it is not true. > > > > > Stefan, > > May I suggest you let well enough alone ? > > If one wanted to believe something and they have their mind made up, > you cannot change it. > > I could make a case that food is carcenogenic. As research has > shown, every single human that has ever had any form of cancer has > eaten. > > Dave > > ----------- > > Dave, > > Welll...... Actually.... > > One of the most-carcinogenic substances on earth is called aflatoxin. It is a mold or fungus that grows naturally on CORN, while it's still in the cornfield. So watch out for those cornflakes and corndogs! > > Also, remember how dangerous pure water is. And breathing, too. (Breathing too much water can kill you!) > > By the way, I found out that FERRIC CHLORIDE is used by wastewater treatment plants, added to the water in HUGE quantities. Some of them use thousands of gallons of 50% solution per week. So don't let anyone tell you that Ferric Chloride is a "hazardous chemical". (Of course, AFTER it has the copper in it, from etching, then it's a whole different story, maybe.) > > What IS some peoples' "problem", with "man-made chemicals", anyway (as opposed to "natural" substances)? MANKIND is, itself, a part of Nature. So, therefore, EVERYTHING is "natural". i.e. A nuclear plant is no less a part of nature than a beaver dam. > > And who allowed the enviro-paranoid-whackos to co-opt the word "organic"? Didn't they ever hear of "organic chemistry"? Plastics and gasoline and coal are as "organic" as it gets!
> > Hehe, > > Tom Gootee > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2004-07-31 by Dave Mucha
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote: > > > Tom, I am done with this subject. You missed my point when I suggestd > for anybody curious like yourself, to do their own research. Please > realize how carefully I am crafting this email not raise any further > discussion. Do your own research if that subject interests you. I > don't have a need for IPA in my process, as previously mentioned. > Good luck. > >Mike Umm.... we did the research. We checked MSDS on IPA, FDA, FCC, FAA, USDA.... all the experts agree that there is no cause for concern. IPA is based on 3 carbon atoms, 8 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Cancer is an abnormal cell growth. IPA kills cells or does nothing. There is only one person who has any disagreement with the experts and authorities. We believe the scientific data. ANd beleive me, I am one who LOVES to explore conspiracy theories. Currently the US Govt has selected a National Religion. Psychirty. Totally a faith based endevor. Most of the planets governments know that if the allow the peoples to become aware of the contact they have with beings from other worlds, we would not listen to our governemts anymore, but ask for off-world help to free us from the tyrany. 5 of the 6 members of the FDA had stock in NutraSweet and 4 of them worked for the company withing 2 years... But, chemically and biloogically, IPA cannot cause cancer. I thing I'm done with this thread too, there is no convincing the true believers. all you lurkers, my appology for the way OT post. self moderation mode has been sucessfully re-engaged. Dave