Homebrew PCBs

How do I know that? Very simple deduction: www.pulsar.gs did all the 
research and then some. We'll see soon how wrong my method of 
thinking is. Mike

PS Staples paper costs about 30c a sheet.

Mike,
     If the paper acts just like real paper until water hits it why do
you think it won't work? You are soaking your paper and pealing it
back. Having the paper dissolve would prevent the traces from being
pulled loose during the pealing operation. Am I missing something?

                                           John 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

> 
> How do I know that? Very simple deduction: www.pulsar.gs did all the 
> research and then some. We'll see soon how wrong my method of 
> thinking is. Mike
> 
> PS Staples paper costs about 30c a sheet.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
...
>                                Am I missing something?
> 

No, you aren't.  The thesis is presuposed on the premises that all
possiblities have been tried and the infallibility of one
organization.  That's a risky bet, at best.  

This dissolving paper may not do it but if it does its a definite step
forward and I for one am eager to hear the results.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:37:26 -0000, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

>
> Mike,
>      If the paper acts just like real paper until water hits it why do
> you think it won't work? You are soaking your paper and pealing it
> back. Having the paper dissolve would prevent the traces from being
> pulled loose during the pealing operation. Am I missing something?
>                                           John


No you are not missing something. except that you shouldn't peel the paper  
if you have adhesion problems.
Let it soak well (scratch the surface to make that faster) and then peel  
the main bulk off, but LEAVE the last
layer. rub that with your fingers or rubber.
you can also rub away the whole paper, circular motions starting center  
work best. "roll" it off.

Mike is a notorious nay-sayer, ignore him ;-). If we would listen to him  
nobody would ever have tried
toner transfer in the first place, or making PCBs at home.

ST

ST,
   I realize the Staples paper is cheaper but if we could secure paper
that acts like copier paper and it dissoves away in even 30 seconds I
think it will make things easier. I have been following this thread
for over a year. I suspect certain toner and different machine account
for the different results. Some toner or the amount of heat in the
fuser causes the toner to stick to the paper for some people than
others. The Staples paper is the best bet at this time. The Spy Paper
I listed seems like it would be more like copier paper than the stuff
used in quilting. That page where the Email bounces looks like it
would have been the ticket.

                                               John   


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:37:26 -0000, crankorgan <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Mike,
> >      If the paper acts just like real paper until water hits it why do
> > you think it won't work? You are soaking your paper and pealing it
> > back. Having the paper dissolve would prevent the traces from being
> > pulled loose during the pealing operation. Am I missing something?
> >                                           John
> 
> 
> No you are not missing something. except that you shouldn't peel the
paper  
> if you have adhesion problems.
> Let it soak well (scratch the surface to make that faster) and then
peel  
> the main bulk off, but LEAVE the last
> layer. rub that with your fingers or rubber.
> you can also rub away the whole paper, circular motions starting
center  
> work best. "roll" it off.
> 
> Mike is a notorious nay-sayer, ignore him ;-). If we would listen to
him  

> nobody would ever have tried
> toner transfer in the first place, or making PCBs at home.
> 
> ST

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0000, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

>
> ST,
>    I realize the Staples paper is cheaper but if we could secure paper
> that acts like copier paper and it dissoves away in even 30 seconds I
> think it will make things easier. I have been following this thread
> for over a year. I suspect certain toner and different machine account
> for the different results. Some toner or the amount of heat in the
> fuser causes the toner to stick to the paper for some people than
> others. The Staples paper is the best bet at this time. The Spy Paper
> I listed seems like it would be more like copier paper than the stuff
> used in quilting. That page where the Email bounces looks like it
> would have been the ticket.
>                                               John


I didn't realise i said anything to the contrary. (suspecting you confused  
my post with mike's)
I agree fast-dissolve paper is interesting. But it isn't a huge step.
Even if it works great it is probably not worth the hassle for me trying  
to find it, compared
to just going to the next shop for zweckform inkjet paper.

I do not think the soaking/removing process holds any limitations - once  
you get it right.
IMO the limitations so far are resolution, big area coverge, and  
distortion, big issues here.

I agree it _MUST_ be tried, and it has very good chances to work, but it  
won't offer that much
benefit for those who have a working paper already.

ST

John,

Idea is great, no doubt: bake laser toner onto a water soluable paper 
and then transfer that ink onto the copper. After that, one needs to 
soak the PCB in water and the paper will dissolve. One major problem 
I see in it is that it is just too ideal to be true, with all the 
boundry problems on the very first layer of paper- what really 
happens there? Dextrin paper was supposed to do just that (and 
supposedly does it and we've been persuing that dextrin paper for 
long- now way to make it. Too tru to be beautiful... My opinion is 
from the sorts if it looks like a duck.


Stefan,

That's my non scientific method of distinguishing dream from reality, 
time will tell and I want to be wrong.

As far as what I said about this forum that we pretty much can close 
it down after I posted laminator+Staples paper solution, it still is 
true: no other major breakthru was made so far. Before that method 
make a PCB was a hit and miss, now it's sure thing. I keep debating 
if I should get rid of a UV exposure lamp.


Oh, here is a manual for newcomers: 
http://www.technologystudent.com/pcb/pcb.htm

notice number 3, the erasor in action.

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> How do I know that? Very simple deduction: www.pulsar.gs did all 
the 

> research and then some. We'll see soon how wrong my method of 
> thinking is. Mike
> 
> PS Staples paper costs about 30c a sheet.

Mike,

I didn't know what a mucilage is:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0834317.html

Where do you get that secret stuff and tell us more how well it 
works.  This one sound promising. Mike




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mike Newman <mnewman@c...> 
wrote:
> My results are achieved by coating the paper with mucilage before 
laser
> printing the toner.  The mucilage wil dissolve during soaking, and 
the paper
> will float away from the board - no further rubbing required - 
givung a

> perfect transfer of the toner.
> 
> MikeN
> 
>

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:32:09 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

>
> Stefan,
> That's my non scientific method of distinguishing dream from reality,
> time will tell and I want to be wrong.
> As far as what I said about this forum that we pretty much can close
> it down after I posted laminator+Staples paper solution, it still is
> true: no other major breakthru was made so far. Before that method
> make a PCB was a hit and miss, now it's sure thing. I keep debating
> if I should get rid of a UV exposure lamp.
> Oh, here is a manual for newcomers:
> http://www.technologystudent.com/pcb/pcb.htm
> notice number 3, the erasor in action.
> Mike

Mike, your dream is another man's reality could be a possibility.
We could have closed the forum down after the first guy made a home-pcb  
with
hand applied tar and FeCl. (well, not the forum, but whatever was used  
then).
Only because that staples paper works, and a laminator works does not mean  
we will stop
trying to find better methods!
As long as the pcb doesn't come out of a slot in my PC with only schematic  
as input, and
printed components of course, i'm by no means finished.
If you want to stick with the current method forever - fine with me.
Before staples paper pcb making was no hit and miss, UV method is a sure  
thing.
permanent marker is a sure thing as well, just not convenient.

concerning the manual, thanks, i hope you added it to the links section.
Note the eraser is used to strip resist and not paper.

concerning mucilage, your link says it doesn't solve in paper, just swells.
I don't think it's too promising. (My dictionary translates mucilage as  
"slime" ;-) )
But hey, it wouldn't be us two without different opinions.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> Idea is great... ...it is just too ideal to be true...
> ...Dextrin paper was supposed to do just that (and 
> supposedly does it and we've been persuing that dextrin paper for 
> long- now way to make it. Too tru to be beautiful... My opinion is 
> from the sorts if it looks like a duck.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying it sounds too much like it will
work, so it can't? Or that since something else didn't work, this
can't either?

...
> As far as what I said about this forum that we pretty much can close 
> it down after I posted laminator+Staples paper solution, it still is 
> true: no other major breakthru was made so far. Before that method 
> make a PCB was a hit and miss, now it's sure thing. I keep debating 
> if I should get rid of a UV exposure lamp.

I don't think I'd go -that- far. No method is without its issues.
After all, 20 years ago I made PCBs by putting drafting tape and
rub-on IC patterns onto clear film and using photo etching, should I
have never started this list because that worked?

> Oh, here is a manual for newcomers: 
> http://www.technologystudent.com/pcb/pcb.htm

Good link. Should be posted here and on NW Propmasters.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
...
> Only because that staples paper works, and a laminator works does
not mean  
> we will stop
> trying to find better methods!
> As long as the pcb doesn't come out of a slot in my PC with only
schematic  
> as input, and
> printed components of course, i'm by no means finished.
> If you want to stick with the current method forever - fine with me.
> Before staples paper pcb making was no hit and miss, UV method is a
sure  
> thing.
> permanent marker is a sure thing as well, just not convenient.


Here! here!  I couldn't have said it better.  I really do not
understand the need to agrandize staples/gbc200 and the guy who
documented it.  There are many things here that work and many people
who have made real contributions.  

Why on earth would we stop trying to improve the process???  It
reminds me of a famous quote by Charles Duell, Commissioner of the
U.S. Office of Patents in 1899 - "Everything that can be invented has
been invented".  Of course he missed a few things - the airplane,
electronics, biotech, ginsu knife, ...

I have been using HP photopaper for inkjet printers and until I 
modified my process, getting the paper of was a real pain. I would 
almost have to let it soak overnight to get the rest of the residue 
off. 

My new process entails heating the PCB first with an iron until it 
is too hot to handle, then carfully placing the photo paper on it. 
It glues to it almost without any help. I then cover the photo paper 
with another piece of regular paper (so the photo paper will not 
stick to the iron) and gently heat it some more. While it is still 
hot, I peel the photo paper off. Apparently the glossy stuff 
carrying the toner is still soft so, it comes right off with minimal 
residue. Usually, it is all just on the toner. Quench the board 
immediately it some cool water and a gently rub, and what little 
residue was there, is gone.

One problem I did note is the smudging of the traces if too much 
pressure/lateral force is applied after the inital placement. If you 
get smudging, you'll end up scrubbing it off and doing it again. 
(Note to all, It took me a bit to get the process working)

Keith

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> ...
> > Only because that staples paper works, and a laminator works does
> not mean  
> > we will stop
> > trying to find better methods!
> > As long as the pcb doesn't come out of a slot in my PC with only
> schematic  
> > as input, and
> > printed components of course, i'm by no means finished.
> > If you want to stick with the current method forever - fine with 
me.
> > Before staples paper pcb making was no hit and miss, UV method 
is a
> sure  
> > thing.
> > permanent marker is a sure thing as well, just not convenient.
> 
> 
> Here! here!  I couldn't have said it better.  I really do not
> understand the need to agrandize staples/gbc200 and the guy who
> documented it.  There are many things here that work and many 
people
> who have made real contributions.  
> 
> Why on earth would we stop trying to improve the process???  It
> reminds me of a famous quote by Charles Duell, Commissioner of the
> U.S. Office of Patents in 1899 - "Everything that can be invented 
has
> been invented".  Of course he missed a few things - the airplane,
> electronics, biotech, ginsu knife, ...

Hi Mike

(this is confusing - two Mikes!)

Mucilage is a vegetable gum -sometimes called arabic gum - available from office and stationery suppliers.  Mine was supplied in a small 100cc plastic bottle with a rubber applicator cap - cost NZ $2.50.  Just squeeze the bottle and stroke the applicator over the paper to apply the gum.  If the coating is uneven (and it probably will be) smooth it out with a finger, while the gum is still liquid -  it gets tacky rapidly.  If the gum gets tacky while you are smoothing it you will spoil the evenness of the gum layer, with detriment to the final result. 

Glue pens may contain a similar water-soluble gum - might try this later.

I used a matt inkjet photo paper, wiped the gum over it, let it dry, (the paper warped a bit), dried the paper with a hot-air gun, put it through the printer - as a  blank - that ironed out the warping, then printed the layout.  ( I had to buy another iron - cheapest was best - wife was not at all keen on me using her clothes iron- she had visions of pc layouts all over the ironed handkerchiefs and tablecloths).

I'll try the cheapest copy paper next time.

It's not necessary to coat a whole sheet of paper - besides its hard to do because the gum is slippery and then as soon as it gets tacky it will stick to your fingers - result could be a big mess.  I ran a layout on a piece of cheap copy paper to define the location on the paper and then coated only that area of the photo paper.  

Applied the hot air again until the paper just began to scorch, ironed on to FR4 with a domestic iron, 6 minutes at maximum heat.  No bleeding of tracks.  Then tossed the board into a wash-basin of cold water.  Left it for about 4 hours, and the paper floated off the board as the gum dissolved.

This was a 100% result on my 1st attempt.  I couldn't believe it was so easy.  Smallest track was 0.020" between some IC pads.  This was a through-holeboard, not surface mounted - will try that soon.

The hair spray sounds promising - but what will the fellows at the shop think when I go and buy that - think I'll try the wife's first!

Cheers

MikeN

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mikezcnc 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 4:40 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: There is no way that water soluable paper will work for TT.



  Mike,

  I didn't know what a mucilage is:

  http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0834317.html

  Where do you get that secret stuff and tell us more how well it 
  works.  This one sound promising. Mike




  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mike Newman <mnewman@c...> 
  wrote:
  > My results are achieved by coating the paper with mucilage before 
  laser
  > printing the toner.  The mucilage wil dissolve during soaking, and 
  the paper
  > will float away from the board - no further rubbing required - 
  givung a
  > perfect transfer of the toner.
  > 
  > MikeN
  > 
  > 





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In message <012301c4cc29$cea10100$3683a7cb@miken>
          Mike Newman <mnewman@...> wrote:


> Mucilage is a vegetable gum -sometimes called arabic gum - available from
> office and stationery suppliers.  Mine was supplied in a small 100cc
> plastic bottle with a rubber applicator cap - cost NZ $2.50.

Would that stuff happen to take the form of a brown, sticky liquid when in
the bottle? I've used it before. It's not as popular as PVA, but a lot of
places still sell it around here.
I suspect rolling it on with a rubber roller would get the coating pretty
flat. You have one roller on the top that's half-immersed in the gum, the
other half touches the second rubber roller (transfer roller) and transfers
the gum onto it. The transfer roller transfers the gum to the paper.
In theory you should be able to get a fairly even layer on the page. I think
rubber rollers are used for screen-printing...

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... KLEPTOMANIA!  Take something for it!

Sounds like the very same stuff.

Mt board was small, hence I didn't have a large area to smooth.  The roller may be needed on a larger board o get the smoothing done before the gum becomes tacky.

Cheers de MikeN  ZL1BNB

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Philip Pemberton 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 11:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: There is no way that water soluable paper will work for TT.


  In message <012301c4cc29$cea10100$3683a7cb@miken>
            Mike Newman <mnewman@...> wrote:


  > Mucilage is a vegetable gum -sometimes called arabic gum - available from
  > office and stationery suppliers.  Mine was supplied in a small 100cc
  > plastic bottle with a rubber applicator cap - cost NZ $2.50.

  Would that stuff happen to take the form of a brown, sticky liquid when in
  the bottle? I've used it before. It's not as popular as PVA, but a lot of
  places still sell it around here.
  I suspect rolling it on with a rubber roller would get the coating pretty
  flat. You have one roller on the top that's half-immersed in the gum, the
  other half touches the second rubber roller (transfer roller) and transfers
  the gum onto it. The transfer roller transfers the gum to the paper.
  In theory you should be able to get a fairly even layer on the page. I think
  rubber rollers are used for screen-printing...

  Later.
  -- 
  Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
  philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
  http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
  ... KLEPTOMANIA!  Take something for it!


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mucilage ?



Is that a brand name for something else?

never heard of it but i'm in the uk

And antique office style paper glue, made from plant or animal mucus, hence the name.  superceded by rubber cement.  Works for masking.  Acts basically the same as RC
 
Sam

lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

mucilage ?



Is that a brand name for something else?

never heard of it but i'm in the uk




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My results are achieved by coating the paper with mucilage before laser
printing the toner.  The mucilage wil dissolve during soaking, and the paper
will float away from the board - no further rubbing required - givung a
perfect transfer of the toner.

MikeN


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: There is no way that water soluable paper
will work for TT.


>
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 02:37:26 -0000, crankorgan <john@...>
wrote:

>
> >
> > Mike,
> >      If the paper acts just like real paper until water hits it why do
> > you think it won't work? You are soaking your paper and pealing it
> > back. Having the paper dissolve would prevent the traces from being
> > pulled loose during the pealing operation. Am I missing something?
> >                                           John
>
>
> No you are not missing something. except that you shouldn't peel the paper
> if you have adhesion problems.
> Let it soak well (scratch the surface to make that faster) and then peel
> the main bulk off, but LEAVE the last
> layer. rub that with your fingers or rubber.
> you can also rub away the whole paper, circular motions starting center
> work best. "roll" it off.
>
> Mike is a notorious nay-sayer, ignore him ;-). If we would listen to him
> nobody would ever have tried
> toner transfer in the first place, or making PCBs at home.
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> ...
> >                                Am I missing something?
> > 
> 
> No, you aren't.  The thesis is presuposed on the premises that all
> possiblities have been tried and the infallibility of one
> organization.  That's a risky bet, at best.  

Agreed! I've just been through all this in the past couple of years
regarding continuous ink feed systems for desktop printers. Basically
someone made one type of non-optimized system that worked in most
cases, everyone else copied it for years. Then it was steam engine
time... I and a few others separately came up with a much better
system that came from a real understanding of how it worked, when it
worked.

> This dissolving paper may not do it but if it does its a definite step
> forward and I for one am eager to hear the results.

Looks like someone tried it and was successful. See photos under TT n
Water Soluble Paper. Looks very good.

Steve Greenfield