Homebrew PCBs

Hi Group,

I am wondering if there is a such a device already out there that can 
print directly onto a circuit board.  I see essentially two uses for 
such a printer...

1) you could print the legends directly to the circuit board without 
making a screen etc. 

2) With the right kind of inks, I would imagine you could print the 
masks directly on the circuit board for etching.

I have seen a number of CD type printers that work very close to this 
principle.  Some are even ordinary converted Epson printers. I don't 
think ordinary inkjet ink would work for masks, however....

There is another type of pinter, Rimage is the brand name I believe, 
and it is a thermal type printer.  It seems as though it lays down a 
pretty heavy "Film" of some sort that may work for mask printing. This 
type of printer could also function then as the legend printer after 
etching.

Seems like a rather logical process for making circuit boards (at 
least that is what the voices in my head are telling me ;-)

Chris

I Googled on 'flatbed inkjet printer' - essentially what you're asking for.

Here's one that might work

http://www.signweb.com/outdoor/prods/Scitex.html

Just a bit of overkill for our purposes ;-)

It looks like there is something here worth exploring.  Starting in 2002 or 2003 there seems to be a bunch of companies constructing flatbed printers in an attempt to get some of the silk screen printing business.  Flatbed printers will print on thick, rigid substrates.  Some use solvent based inks.  Solvent based inks have the potential to function as etch resists.  Most of these printers are wide format to print on T-shirts and other clothing, and all I checked out look like expensive machines.  However, we may be able to find these machines in local shops that traditionally do silk screen printing.  Look for a custom silk screen shop in your area.  You may be able to supply artwork and have him print on your PCB.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lcdpublishing 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:45 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] INkejet printing right on a circuit board....


  Hi Group,

  I am wondering if there is a such a device already out there that can 
  print directly onto a circuit board.  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A quick way of looking at the problems involved is to tape a piece of 
aluminium Kitchen foil to a sheet of A4 paper and then print a PCB layout 
onto it using a standard inkjet printer.
          In my case the ink lines 'ball up" turning lines into a row of 
dot's. I am not sure whether this was due to some sort of coating on the 
aluminium foil. Same think happened on copper.  On the other hand a 
permanent marker pen produces nice clean lines on the same aluminium foil 
and copper without balling.  .
         If anyone solves the problem, please let me know .... it is the way 
to go !  ... John Kent


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Earl T. Hackett, Jr." <hacketet@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] INkejet printing right on a circuit board....


>I Googled on 'flatbed inkjet printer' - essentially what you're asking for.
>
> Here's one that might work
>
> http://www.signweb.com/outdoor/prods/Scitex.html
>
> Just a bit of overkill for our purposes ;-)
>
> It looks like there is something here worth exploring.  Starting in 2002 
> or 2003 there seems to be a bunch of companies constructing flatbed 
> printers in an attempt to get some of the silk screen printing business. 
> Flatbed printers will print on thick, rigid substrates.  Some use solvent 
> based inks.  Solvent based inks have the potential to function as etch 
> resists.  Most of these printers are wide format to print on T-shirts and 
> other clothing, and all I checked out look like expensive machines. 
> However, we may be able to find these machines in local shops that 
> traditionally do silk screen printing.  Look for a custom silk screen shop 
> in your area.  You may be able to supply artwork and have him print on 
> your PCB.
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: lcdpublishing
>  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:45 PM
>  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] INkejet printing right on a circuit board....
>
>
>  Hi Group,
>
>  I am wondering if there is a such a device already out there that can
>  print directly onto a circuit board.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Kent,

I suspect the ink in your printer is water based ink, that would not 
flow out as you would hope.  I think a solvent based ink would be 
needed for printing on metals and even plastics.  If you ever tried 
to print on transparencies that are not for ink jets, you get the 
same problem.

So I don't think an ordinary ink-jet printer would work, but I think 
the concept would.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Kent" <moonshadow@n...> 
wrote:
> A quick way of looking at the problems involved is to tape a piece 
of 
> aluminium Kitchen foil to a sheet of A4 paper and then print a PCB 
layout 
> onto it using a standard inkjet printer.
>           In my case the ink lines 'ball up" turning lines into a 
row of 
> dot's. I am not sure whether this was due to some sort of coating 
on the 
> aluminium foil. Same think happened on copper.  On the other hand 
a 
> permanent marker pen produces nice clean lines on the same 
aluminium foil 
> and copper without balling.  .
>          If anyone solves the problem, please let me know .... it 
is the way 
> to go !  ... John Kent
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Earl T. Hackett, Jr." <hacketet@c...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] INkejet printing right on a circuit 
board....
> 
> 
> >I Googled on 'flatbed inkjet printer' - essentially what you're 
asking for.
> >
> > Here's one that might work
> >
> > http://www.signweb.com/outdoor/prods/Scitex.html
> >
> > Just a bit of overkill for our purposes ;-)
> >
> > It looks like there is something here worth exploring.  Starting 
in 2002 
> > or 2003 there seems to be a bunch of companies constructing 
flatbed 
> > printers in an attempt to get some of the silk screen printing 
business. 
> > Flatbed printers will print on thick, rigid substrates.  Some 
use solvent 
> > based inks.  Solvent based inks have the potential to function 
as etch 
> > resists.  Most of these printers are wide format to print on T-
shirts and 
> > other clothing, and all I checked out look like expensive 
machines. 
> > However, we may be able to find these machines in local shops 
that 
> > traditionally do silk screen printing.  Look for a custom silk 
screen shop 
> > in your area.  You may be able to supply artwork and have him 
print on 
> > your PCB.
> >  ----- Original Message ----- 
> >  From: lcdpublishing
> >  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:45 PM
> >  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] INkejet printing right on a circuit 
board....
> >
> >
> >  Hi Group,
> >
> >  I am wondering if there is a such a device already out there 
that can
> >  print directly onto a circuit board.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

On Sat, 7 May 2005 14:09:56 +0100, John Kent <moonshadow@...>  
wrote:

> A quick way of looking at the problems involved is to tape a piece of
> aluminium Kitchen foil to a sheet of A4 paper and then print a PCB layout
> onto it using a standard inkjet printer.
>           In my case the ink lines 'ball up" turning lines into a row of
> dot's. I am not sure whether this was due to some sort of coating on the
> aluminium foil. Same think happened on copper.  On the other hand a
> permanent marker pen produces nice clean lines on the same aluminium foil
> and copper without balling.  .
>          If anyone solves the problem, please let me know .... it is the  
> way
> to go !  ... John Kent


agree!!

To me it seems the marker ink contains stuff that wets the metal, and  
allows the ink ot form a proper film.

I would agree that direct printing would be nice, but i do not expect to  
find a reasonably cheap solution any time soon.
Even if you find THE ink, it must work in the printer, 100%, if only one  
nozzle is out you can forget it.
If the printer doesn't form a continous film on metals, forget it.

I tried staedtler red marker ink in a piezo epson. it did not work.  
(clogging of head).

Right not toner transfer produces good quality, every time, and it works  
already.
Inkjet printing would be nice because it would have better geometric  
accuracy.

What should be said is that TEK sublimation printers (solid ink) are used  
with success for direct resist printing on thin sheets of copper.


ST

to john kent:
i have chopped a printer and gotten the pcb to feed
through and it printed the art work good, buuuut you
have to clean the pcb very well or the ink will not
flatten out. if the material you are printing on is
the least bit oily-- it will not work. but of course
the ink i used was water and alcohal based so it will
not work as a resist.this winter (god willing) i will
print on a pcb with water and alcohal based ink (print
it reversed) then spray it with laqer or paint and
then wash the water based ink under the paint off
after the paint has dryed.may not work ,but will try.
mebo

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Thank you for the reply, I found it very interesting.  As you say part of 
the answer is in cleaning or preparing the copper surface but most of my 
problems lay with the ink.  I got in contact with many ink manufacturers and 
we had some rewarding discussions about this application.  It basically 
boils down to the choice between a solvent based ink or an UV cured ink. The 
water solvent based inks I have tried so far, simply wash off in the acid 
bath. There can also be a problem with the solvent vaopurising and cloggung 
the head. I came to the conclusion that a UV cured ink may be a possible all 
round solution. These are actually resin based and offer a much more durable 
printed image. UV inks are available that will cure in a fraction of a 
second. So it might be possible to mount a fibre bundle from a UV light 
source to just behind the print nozzles as a low mass light cure source.
            Taking the idea one step further, it would also be possible to 
print, graphics, flux as well as acid resist direct onto the board. This 
leads us onto conductive inks, which already exist.  They normally require 
special for purpose heads, but seem to work well for most low power 
applications. I think for my own purposes a simple A5 flat bed printer, 
using UV cured ink would do the trick. Another advantage of UV ink is that 
it does not dry in the nozzles as solvent ink does. I have seen applications 
where multilayer boards have been produced using UV inks, with an insulating 
ink between layers ... and all of this printed on a flexible substrata. 
Anyway who says we have to have a purpose substrata since we can print onto 
anything!
             It is possible to convert the older models of Cannon printers 
into flat bed, I have one on the bench at the moment. Thanks again for the 
reply. .

John.
----- Original Message -----

Please do keep us informed if you find a suitable UV curing ink.
I agree it seems the most promising.

I would not mind putting the "wet" pcb under UV lamps for curing.

ST



On Sat, 7 May 2005 20:14:39 +0100, John Kent <moonshadow@...>  
wrote:

> Thank you for the reply, I found it very interesting.  As you say part of
> the answer is in cleaning or preparing the copper surface but most of my
> problems lay with the ink.  I got in contact with many ink manufacturers  
> and
> we had some rewarding discussions about this application.  It basically
> boils down to the choice between a solvent based ink or an UV cured ink.  
> The
> water solvent based inks I have tried so far, simply wash off in the acid
> bath. There can also be a problem with the solvent vaopurising and  
> cloggung
> the head. I came to the conclusion that a UV cured ink may be a possible  
> all
> round solution. These are actually resin based and offer a much more  
> durable
> printed image. UV inks are available that will cure in a fraction of a
> second. So it might be possible to mount a fibre bundle from a UV light
> source to just behind the print nozzles as a low mass light cure source.
>             Taking the idea one step further, it would also be possible  
> to
> print, graphics, flux as well as acid resist direct onto the board. This
> leads us onto conductive inks, which already exist.  They normally  
> require
> special for purpose heads, but seem to work well for most low power
> applications. I think for my own purposes a simple A5 flat bed printer,
> using UV cured ink would do the trick. Another advantage of UV ink is  
> that
> it does not dry in the nozzles as solvent ink does. I have seen  
> applications
> where multilayer boards have been produced using UV inks, with an  
> insulating
> ink between layers ... and all of this printed on a flexible substrata.
> Anyway who says we have to have a purpose substrata since we can print  
> onto
> anything!
>              It is possible to convert the older models of Cannon  
> printers
> into flat bed, I have one on the bench at the moment. Thanks again for  
> the
> reply. .
> John.
> ----- Original Message -----

> I tried staedtler red marker ink in a piezo epson. it did not work.
> (clogging of head).

    Tip: Use the OLDEST inkjet type avaiable. The nozzles are bigger, so there
is less chance of clogging up.



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 6/5/2005

On Sat, 7 May 2005 18:59:14 -0300, Alexandre Souza  
<alexandre-listas@...> wrote:

>
>     Tip: Use the OLDEST inkjet type avaiable. The nozzles are bigger, so  
> there
> is less chance of clogging up.


and also limits resolution to 300dpi, which is not really that much..
I used a 600dpi printer in the failed test.

ST

I believe my HP plotter (HP DesignJet 500) uses UV cured inks.  I 
don't have the time right now to check on it though. I also know that 
it can print a fine line and a very heavy line.  I don't know either 
if the ink is water or oil based.  I have a hunch it is a water based 
ink of some sort.

Chris

In a message dated 5/7/2005 9:26:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
lcdpublishing@... writes:

Hi  Kent,

I suspect the ink in your printer is water based ink, that would  not 
flow out as you would hope.  I think a solvent based ink would be  
needed for printing on metals and even plastics.  If you ever tried  
to print on transparencies that are not for ink jets, you get the 
same  problem.

So I don't think an ordinary ink-jet printer would work, but I  think 
the concept would.



The only inkjet that would work is an EPSON with the Dye  Sub ink kit added. 
Those inks when heated are water proof!
 
Ray Russell
NMRA-40609
General Contractor
Norfolk &  Western Railroad
Pocahontas Division
Circa 1958
Visit The "NEW"  Pocahontas Website at:_ Click here: N  & W Pocahontas  
Division_ (http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html) 
http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html

OR_ Click here:  Pocahontas Home_ 
(http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm)  
For the old website!  
http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I need to get some PCBs done, no matter if the tank is ready or not, so i  
had a chance to do some more experimenting.

The neutral silicone does not work well at all.
The printout is all flaky.
Also, it does not feel as tacky to the touch as the well working acetic  
silicone i tried before.
I do not know exactly what the problem is, currently a few sheets of paper  
with the acetic silicone are curing for direct comparision.

Maybe another brand of neutral silicone would be better, or maybe the acid  
would not cause any harm to the printer, or maybe it could be washed off,  
or maybe the problem is something else entirely.

I will let you know what i find out.


ST

I'm really interested in your results, stefan, since i have some pcbs to do.
What brand was the last silicone you used with your "best" results?
since i live in germany i have the opportunity to buy this as well...
BTW i'm about to try your method today with a silicone i bought two weeks 
ago...i'm very curious...
:-)

Martin



----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 5:04 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] silcone paper


>I need to get some PCBs done, no matter if the tank is ready or not, so i
> had a chance to do some more experimenting.
>
> The neutral silicone does not work well at all.
> The printout is all flaky.
> Also, it does not feel as tacky to the touch as the well working acetic
> silicone i tried before.
> I do not know exactly what the problem is, currently a few sheets of paper
> with the acetic silicone are curing for direct comparision.
>
> Maybe another brand of neutral silicone would be better, or maybe the acid
> would not cause any harm to the printer, or maybe it could be washed off,
> or maybe the problem is something else entirely.
>
> I will let you know what i find out.
>
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Sun, 8 May 2005 18:13:32 +0200, Martin Haverland  
<professional@...> wrote:

> I'm really interested in your results, stefan, since i have some pcbs to  
> do.
> What brand was the last silicone you used with your "best" results?
> since i live in germany i have the opportunity to buy this as well...
> BTW i'm about to try your method today with a silicone i bought two weeks
> ago...i'm very curious...
>
> Martin


The acetic one was E-COLL Standardsilikon. A address in Austria is on the  
Package.

ST

Hi Kent,

Don't us homebrewers already have the equivalent of an UV curing ink 
with the correct wetting out and resist properties? I'm suggesting 
the use of the coating that is applied to sensitize pc boards as the 
ink.

Its designed to wet out the copper surface and adhere well. After 
printing just "expose" the board and etch.

Seems like it would be worth a try.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, rruss45826@a... wrote:
>  
>  
> In a message dated 5/7/2005 9:26:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> lcdpublishing@y... writes:
> 
> Hi  Kent,
> 
> I suspect the ink in your printer is water based ink, that would  
not 
> flow out as you would hope.  I think a solvent based ink would be  
> needed for printing on metals and even plastics.  If you ever 
tried  
> to print on transparencies that are not for ink jets, you get the 
> same  problem.
> 
> So I don't think an ordinary ink-jet printer would work, but I  
think 
> the concept would.
> 
> 
> 
> The only inkjet that would work is an EPSON with the Dye  Sub ink 
kit added. 
> Those inks when heated are water proof!
>  
> Ray Russell
> NMRA-40609
> General Contractor
> Norfolk &  Western Railroad
> Pocahontas Division
> Circa 1958
> Visit The "NEW"  Pocahontas Website at:_ Click here: N  & W 
Pocahontas  
> Division_ 
(http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html) 

> http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html
> 
> OR_ Click here:  Pocahontas Home_ 
> (http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm)  
> For the old website!  
> http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, 08 May 2005 19:05:22 -0000, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Kent,
> Don't us homebrewers already have the equivalent of an UV curing ink
> with the correct wetting out and resist properties? I'm suggesting
> the use of the coating that is applied to sensitize pc boards as the
> ink.
> Its designed to wet out the copper surface and adhere well. After
> printing just "expose" the board and etch.
> Seems like it would be worth a try.
> Myc


That is not uv curing, like in uv curing......
The ink is hard even without exposure.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> That is not uv curing, like in uv curing......
> The ink is hard even without exposure.
> 
> ST

Isn't that a moot point. just a matter of terminology. The fluid is 
applied to the substrate and then post cured. The result is a film or 
design impervious to the etchant bath.

Myc

On Sun, 08 May 2005 19:57:27 -0000, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

>
> Isn't that a moot point. just a matter of terminology. The fluid is
> applied to the substrate and then post cured. The result is a film or
> design impervious to the etchant bath.
> Myc


No, it's something entirely different.
The photoresist is for all intents and purposes just another laquer that  
dries by evaporation of solvent.

UV curing ink is polimerization because of UV light, not evaporation of  
solvent.
You could just use any solvent laquer instead of photoresist, and spare  
yourself the mess with exposure, IF you could print solvent laquer of this  
consistency in a continous layer.

It is not UV curing ink.

Maybe someone can get his hands on the stuff they use for rapid  
prototyping with lasers? It could be what we need.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> 
> No, it's something entirely different.
> The photoresist is for all intents and purposes just another 
laquer that  
> dries by evaporation of solvent.
> 
> UV curing ink is polimerization because of UV light, not 
evaporation of  
> solvent.
> You could just use any solvent laquer instead of photoresist, and 
spare  
> yourself the mess with exposure, IF you could print solvent laquer 
of this  
> consistency in a continous layer.
> 
> It is not UV curing ink.
> 
 
> ST

St,

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. When the photresist is cured, it then becomes 
impervious to ecthants. The point is that the fluid is designed to 
wet out the copper substrate and adhere well.

Myc

At 05:03 PM 5/8/2005, you wrote:
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> >
> > No, it's something entirely different.
> > The photoresist is for all intents and purposes just another
>laquer that
> > dries by evaporation of solvent.
> >
> > UV curing ink is polimerization because of UV light, not
>evaporation of
> > solvent.
> > You could just use any solvent laquer instead of photoresist, and
>spare
> > yourself the mess with exposure, IF you could print solvent laquer
>of this
> > consistency in a continous layer.
> >
> > It is not UV curing ink.
> >
>
> > ST
>
>St,
>
>Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. When the photresist is cured, it then becomes
>impervious to ecthants. The point is that the fluid is designed to
>wet out the copper substrate and adhere well.
>
>Myc
>
But because it dries by evaporation it will clog up the jet nozzles, I 
think that is what the problem is, UV ink does not get hard until exposed 
to UV, which keeps the nozzles clear on the printer.





>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 5/6/2005

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA

oh man...
seems, that your method works really good and cheap...
but my printer is about to leave me...prints are too weak and toner is 
possibly more expensive as the whole printers worth....
(Apple Laserwriter 320 Personal)

false moment...

so i ended up with an edding in my hand and no smile on my face...repairing 
traces...alot...
#
Martin

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] silcone paper


> On Sun, 8 May 2005 18:13:32 +0200, Martin Haverland
> <professional@...> wrote:
>
>> I'm really interested in your results, stefan, since i have some pcbs to
>> do.
>> What brand was the last silicone you used with your "best" results?
>> since i live in germany i have the opportunity to buy this as well...
>> BTW i'm about to try your method today with a silicone i bought two weeks
>> ago...i'm very curious...
>>
>> Martin
>
>
> The acetic one was E-COLL Standardsilikon. A address in Austria is on the
> Package.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:04:06 +0200, Martin Haverland  
<professional@...> wrote:

> oh man...
> seems, that your method works really good and cheap...
> but my printer is about to leave me...prints are too weak and toner is
> possibly more expensive as the whole printers worth....
> (Apple Laserwriter 320 Personal)
> false moment...
> so i ended up with an edding in my hand and no smile on my  
> face...repairing
> traces...alot...
> #
> Martin


get a new toner at ebay, it is ridiculous what they cost in shops.

ST

On Sun, 08 May 2005 22:03:22 -0000, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

>
> St,
> Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. When the photresist is cured, it then becomes
> impervious to ecthants. The point is that the fluid is designed to
> wet out the copper substrate and adhere well.
> Myc


You don't understand the problem!
I can give you 10000 laquers that wet copper and work as a resist, but i  
can print none of them.

Go and use it if you are so sure it works, i don't have time to waste for  
stating my point 10 times.

ST

> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> ><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> >
> But because it dries by evaporation it will clog up the jet nozzles, 
I 
> think that is what the problem is, UV ink does not get hard until 
exposed 


So you're saying no solvent based system will work in an inkjet 
printer? 

So I guess, that normal inkjet ink will not work. 

Its a matter of the solvent evaporation rate. I really think there 
ARE "solvents" in the UV Ink. Unless it is 100% solids and 
thermoplastic, but thats another set of problems.

Myc

Guys, doing a successful proof of concept and actually using something are  
two totally different things.

My first try today with silicone paper was not that bad. A irregularity in  
the silicone layer (my bad) caused a small flaw but otherwise it was OK.  
But then it went downhill.

I used too small sheets, jammed in the printer (often).

The fuser has the upper roller driven, the lower isn't.
This causes the paper to be dragged faster than the PCB, smearing all and  
everything.
Not sure what can be done, maybe holding together, or envelope, or...
(worst case make both rollers driven sync.)

now the printer is acting up, printing stuff where there is nothing meant  
to be. (thought drum is damaged, but visual is ok, suspect paper fragment  
somewhere).


Well, short story i need that pcb tomorrow so i used inkjet paper again.

But i do think the problems are minor, and i think it will work out some  
time soon.
Maybe later today i can try some more with silicone paper.


Oh, by the way, the new tank is up and running and the bubbler hose is...  
sufficient.. i need a biggger (or second) pump then it will be fine. Note  
that in etchant bubbles are smaller than in water, all other things beeing  
equal.

ST

Thank you for the hint, i did find out about in the meantime... (prices are
*insane* at the e-shops)
...but now i really have to buy a new printer...paper feed was gone half an
hour later...
maybe he is really gone after ten years or so...    ;-)
i will give myself half an hour to repair today...if i don't get it run i'll
go for ebay...

Martin

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] silcone paper


> On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:04:06 +0200, Martin Haverland
> <professional@...> wrote:
>
>> oh man...
>> seems, that your method works really good and cheap...
>> but my printer is about to leave me...prints are too weak and toner is
>> possibly more expensive as the whole printers worth....
>> (Apple Laserwriter 320 Personal)
>> false moment...
>> so i ended up with an edding in my hand and no smile on my
>> face...repairing
>> traces...alot...
>> #
>> Martin
>
>
> get a new toner at ebay, it is ridiculous what they cost in shops.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Mon, 9 May 2005 18:05:01 +0200, Martin Haverland  
<professional@...> wrote:

> Thank you for the hint, i did find out about in the meantime... (prices  
> are
> *insane* at the e-shops)
> ...but now i really have to buy a new printer...paper feed was gone half  
> an
> hour later...
> maybe he is really gone after ten years or so...
> i will give myself half an hour to repair today...if i don't get it run  
> i'll
> go for ebay...
> Martin


Always look at the toners too.
I got a Lexmark M412 for under 20eur, without toner.
But the toner was 80eur. that is a bad joke! in the shops it is 200eur!

With my old HP LJIIID i was accustomed to 30eur-50eur for remanufactured  
toner in the shops and 10eur for ebay toner (HP).
(beware of remanufactured toner, all i tried is bad for TT). granted the  
lexmark toner is 3x more pages, it says, but...


The lexmark is a shoddy printer, all plastic and crap and jams and smells  
bad when heating up...
Having a HP IIID this lexmark is a very bad step back in quality (tho not  
printing quality, just manufacturing).
I wouldn't buy it again, i would buy a HP and hope they are still as good  
as they were (fat chance i know..).
When you lift the thing at one corner it warps and doesn't function at  
all. The HP is made of steel, you could take _ALL_ of the plastic parts  
off and it will still work. Now that is a proper printer. Sadly it only  
has 300dpi which is why i wanted a new one for PCBs.
I will not be surprised, at all, when i scrap the lexmark and the IIID is  
still going strong one day.


ST

Ha,
the HP's of today became crappier and crappier (the new laserjets feel like 
toys and are expensive), we had HP LJ 1100 and 1200 when we swapped HP at 
work (too expensive, paper pickup is the first thing that blows, picking up 
more and more pieces of paper...), seen nearly 500 in service. We tried out 
Kyocera Mita FS-1010 and 1020 after that with 60 pcs until now, they are 
pretty solid and worth the money...
but no chance to test the toner for tt, its replacement/refill-toner anyway. 
BUT the first tonerload of a brandnew one is only 50-20% fill !!! A really 
bad habbit in the printerworld...you have to buy the second load 
instantaneous, because they don't loose quality but the toner empty LED 
sometimes comes one sheet before the no-go.  I saw a lot printers at work - 
and what should i say? the oldest TI-600 are pretty usable after more than 6 
years of hard daily work...

btw: the laserwriter sucks in service terms... i have to give myself another 
hour and wish it was a Kyo...you wouldn't even need a service manual with 
them...

thanks for your hints again!

Martin

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] silcone paper


> On Mon, 9 May 2005 18:05:01 +0200, Martin Haverland
> <professional@...> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the hint, i did find out about in the meantime... (prices
>> are
>> *insane* at the e-shops)
>> ...but now i really have to buy a new printer...paper feed was gone half
>> an
>> hour later...
>> maybe he is really gone after ten years or so...
>> i will give myself half an hour to repair today...if i don't get it run
>> i'll
>> go for ebay...
>> Martin
>
>
> Always look at the toners too.
> I got a Lexmark M412 for under 20eur, without toner.
> But the toner was 80eur. that is a bad joke! in the shops it is 200eur!
>
> With my old HP LJIIID i was accustomed to 30eur-50eur for remanufactured
> toner in the shops and 10eur for ebay toner (HP).
> (beware of remanufactured toner, all i tried is bad for TT). granted the
> lexmark toner is 3x more pages, it says, but...
>
>
> The lexmark is a shoddy printer, all plastic and crap and jams and smells
> bad when heating up...
> Having a HP IIID this lexmark is a very bad step back in quality (tho not
> printing quality, just manufacturing).
> I wouldn't buy it again, i would buy a HP and hope they are still as good
> as they were (fat chance i know..).
> When you lift the thing at one corner it warps and doesn't function at
> all. The HP is made of steel, you could take _ALL_ of the plastic parts
> off and it will still work. Now that is a proper printer. Sadly it only
> has 300dpi which is why i wanted a new one for PCBs.
> I will not be surprised, at all, when i scrap the lexmark and the IIID is
> still going strong one day.
>
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:48:09 +0200, Martin Haverland  
<professional@...> wrote:

> Ha,
> the HP's of today became crappier and crappier (the new laserjets feel  
> like
> toys and are expensive), we had HP LJ 1100 and 1200 when we swapped HP at
> work (too expensive, paper pickup is the first thing that blows, picking  
> up
> more and more pieces of paper...), seen nearly 500 in service. We tried  
> out
> Kyocera Mita FS-1010 and 1020 after that with 60 pcs until now, they are
> pretty solid and worth the money...
> but no chance to test the toner for tt, its replacement/refill-toner  
> anyway.
> BUT the first tonerload of a brandnew one is only 50-20% fill !!! A  
> really
> bad habbit in the printerworld...you have to buy the second load
> instantaneous, because they don't loose quality but the toner empty LED
> sometimes comes one sheet before the no-go.  I saw a lot printers at  
> work -
> and what should i say? the oldest TI-600 are pretty usable after more  
> than 6
> years of hard daily work...
> btw: the laserwriter sucks in service terms... i have to give myself  
> another
> hour and wish it was a Kyo...you wouldn't even need a service manual with
> them...
> thanks for your hints again!
> Martin

Thanks, i will look at the Kyocera printers when i need to replace the  
Lexmark.

bad thing with high resolution is it is only in newer printers, where  
there is still high demand for toner.
I bought the Lexmark reading it has 1200DPI, in fact these are fake  
"picture" DPI and it has only 600. Still better than the HP tho.

ST

Soooooooooo,
i did manage to get the apple working again!
i found an evil streak of paper at the most unreal place...and got angry
because i could
have seen it before   =:->>
After that i was half way there!
found an output tray selector that really suffers (a loose piece of plastic
crap), cleaned
some felt, some *should be clear* plastic and tried to cover AND clean the
drum in the dark
(yes, this one is really "open for exposal" at the top side of the cartridge
if taken out of the printer,
can't believe i overlooked that since i have it...) while working at the
inner life of an appleLW...
so the drum had enough time to retire from yesternights tortures.
OK, looking at the first *dry* printout it's not THAT black at the printed
groundplane of my doublesided pcb design, but i
think the bottom side would be fairly useable...it will retire a little bit
more forsure...
Can't believe i wasted so much toner and paper...d'oh!\ufffd

:-)
my bank account says : Thank you!

Let's keep us beeing informed about our further silicone experiments, i will
do some by myself now!

Kind regards

Martin

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] silcone paper


> On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:48:09 +0200, Martin Haverland
> <professional@...> wrote:
>
>> Ha,
>> the HP's of today became crappier and crappier (the new laserjets feel
>> like
>> toys and are expensive), we had HP LJ 1100 and 1200 when we swapped HP at
>> work (too expensive, paper pickup is the first thing that blows, picking
>> up
>> more and more pieces of paper...), seen nearly 500 in service. We tried
>> out
>> Kyocera Mita FS-1010 and 1020 after that with 60 pcs until now, they are
>> pretty solid and worth the money...
>> but no chance to test the toner for tt, its replacement/refill-toner
>> anyway.
>> BUT the first tonerload of a brandnew one is only 50-20% fill !!! A
>> really
>> bad habbit in the printerworld...you have to buy the second load
>> instantaneous, because they don't loose quality but the toner empty LED
>> sometimes comes one sheet before the no-go.  I saw a lot printers at
>> work -
>> and what should i say? the oldest TI-600 are pretty usable after more
>> than 6
>> years of hard daily work...
>> btw: the laserwriter sucks in service terms... i have to give myself
>> another
>> hour and wish it was a Kyo...you wouldn't even need a service manual with
>> them...
>> thanks for your hints again!
>> Martin
>
> Thanks, i will look at the Kyocera printers when i need to replace the
> Lexmark.
>
> bad thing with high resolution is it is only in newer printers, where
> there is still high demand for toner.
> I bought the Lexmark reading it has 1200DPI, in fact these are fake
> "picture" DPI and it has only 600. Still better than the HP tho.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Mon, 9 May 2005 21:21:33 +0200, Martin Haverland  
<professional@...> wrote:

>
> Let's keep us beeing informed about our further silicone experiments, i  
> will
> do some by myself now!
> Kind regards
> Martin


I fixed the printer too, a paper fragment was attached to a roller it  
shouldn't be attached to.
But still the silicone is frustrating.
I tried about 10 prints before i noticed the file is faulty, not the  
silicone paper, missing chunks of lines cause they were too thin.
The silicone paper tends to stick to places where it shouldn't. It is good  
to leave about an inch on the leading edge uncoated and also use only full  
A4 sheets not half sheets.

ST

I called a local office supply place, they told me they have silicone 
coated paper that can be put through a Laser Jet. I will go down tomorrow 
and see if it looks any good, it's supposed to be glossy finish.

If it looks ok I'll buy some and try it and see if the transfer looks any 
good. I have the feeling though that it's a different kind of silicone, the 
description said it's for use with Ink Jet printers and making high quality 
color presentations.

At 03:40 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote:
>On Mon, 9 May 2005 21:21:33 +0200, Martin Haverland
><professional@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Let's keep us beeing informed about our further silicone experiments, i
> > will
> > do some by myself now!
> > Kind regards
> > Martin
>
>
>I fixed the printer too, a paper fragment was attached to a roller it
>shouldn't be attached to.
>But still the silicone is frustrating.
>I tried about 10 prints before i noticed the file is faulty, not the
>silicone paper, missing chunks of lines cause they were too thin.
>The silicone paper tends to stick to places where it shouldn't. It is good
>to leave about an inch on the leading edge uncoated and also use only full
>A4 sheets not half sheets.
>
>ST
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com

'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you 
with experience.'

...and it will be pretty expensive i'll bet  :-)
To Stefan:
i came to the same conclusions like you independently :-)
i'm looking for a simple method to make the experiments repeatable to get an 
advantage over the exposure method if you have to do more than one board....
What i found out / think by myself until now is:
- keep out of the borders the printer uses mechanically to transport the 
paper...or end up like us repairing printers... :-)
- let the silicone coating dry out...i used the heatgun to speed up 
things...
- try lower ironing temperature (to let the toner melt, but not the 
silicone)
- the coating has to be sticky enough but not too glossy (how about not 
glossy at all?) to get the toner in the right position...
- make the coating repeatable even (i'm not sure, what kind of tool and 
method to use to get a fair result pasting the silicone to the paper)

that seem to be the most important points to me.
anything not mentioned about that???


Kind regards

Martin





----- Original Message ----- 

From: "KD5NWA" <KD5NWA@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] silicone paper


>I called a local office supply place, they told me they have silicone
> coated paper that can be put through a Laser Jet. I will go down tomorrow
> and see if it looks any good, it's supposed to be glossy finish.
>
> If it looks ok I'll buy some and try it and see if the transfer looks any
> good. I have the feeling though that it's a different kind of silicone, 
> the
> description said it's for use with Ink Jet printers and making high 
> quality
> color presentations.
>
> At 03:40 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote:
>>On Mon, 9 May 2005 21:21:33 +0200, Martin Haverland
>><professional@...> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Let's keep us beeing informed about our further silicone experiments, i
>> > will
>> > do some by myself now!
>> > Kind regards
>> > Martin
>>
>>
>>I fixed the printer too, a paper fragment was attached to a roller it
>>shouldn't be attached to.
>>But still the silicone is frustrating.
>>I tried about 10 prints before i noticed the file is faulty, not the
>>silicone paper, missing chunks of lines cause they were too thin.
>>The silicone paper tends to stick to places where it shouldn't. It is good
>>to leave about an inch on the leading edge uncoated and also use only full
>>A4 sheets not half sheets.
>>
>>ST
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Cecil Bayona
> KD5NWA
> www.qrpradio.com
>
> 'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat 
> you
> with experience.'
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Some additional point inserted:

> i came to the same conclusions like you independently :-)
> i'm looking for a simple method to make the experiments repeatable to get 
> an
> advantage over the exposure method if you have to do more than one 
> board....
> What i found out / think by myself until now is:
> - keep out of the borders the printer uses mechanically to transport the
> paper...or end up like us repairing printers... :-)
> - let the silicone coating dry out...i used the heatgun to speed up
> things...
> - try lower ironing temperature (to let the toner melt, but not the
> silicone)

a sensible point: trying to iron directly after the print: the toner will 
not be dried / cooled down ...(?)

> - the coating has to be sticky enough but not too glossy (how about not
> glossy at all?) to get the toner in the right position and not damage 
> parts of the printer...

sensible point / idea: the good results of the Reichelt catalogue pages!
Good because it is a physically flattened "natural" paper but not shiny 
coated surface. Maybe thats possible with silicone more easy with a coating 
on better paper thickness for better results...

> - make the coating repeatable even (i'm not sure, what kind of tool and
> method to use to get a fair result pasting the silicone to the paper)
What kind of simple mechanical treatment must be used for repeatable 
results?
What kind of everyday *tool* gives the best even surface for a nearly din a 
4 kind of plane?
 How do we achieve the best stickyness for the print and how do we proof 
?(!!!!)  (Important because of the very different results we get from 
perfect to indiscussable.)

>
> that seem to be the most important points to me.
> anything not mentioned about that???
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Martin

PS: i hope nobody knows i studied physics at university long ago...:-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2005 18:59:14 -0300, Alexandre Souza  
> <alexandre-listas@e...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >     Tip: Use the OLDEST inkjet type avaiable. The nozzles are
bigger, so  
> > there
> > is less chance of clogging up.
> 
> 
> and also limits resolution to 300dpi, which is not really that much..
> I used a 600dpi printer in the failed test.

I think Epson from the 400 on up were 720dpi heads.

BTW:
http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/PrintHeadCleaning/

Steve Greenfield

You are confusing HP's "UV Ink" with UV -cured- ink. HP calls their
pigmented ink "UV Ink" as it resists fading in sunlight.

However, unless you meant the HP 5000, your plotter uses pigmented
black and dye color.

It is water-based. I believe it is water, alcohol, glycerin, and some
other things. Is there any oil-based inkjet ink? I know there is
solvent based inkjet ink.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:

> I believe my HP plotter (HP DesignJet 500) uses UV cured inks.  I 
> don't have the time right now to check on it though. I also know that 
> it can print a fine line and a very heavy line.  I don't know either 
> if the ink is water or oil based.  I have a hunch it is a water based 
> ink of some sort.
> 
> Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, rruss45826@a... wrote:
...
> The only inkjet that would work is an EPSON with the Dye  Sub ink
kit added. 
> Those inks when heated are water proof!

They won't work. Dye sub inks work by dyeing a polymer coating. Dye
sub onto bare metal will not transfer at all.

http://www.dyesub.org

Steve Greenfield

Huh, newbies' suggestion:

If you can't make the ink stick to the PCB surface properly, how about
alterring the PCB surface slightly?

Either by roughing the glossy finish, maybe sanding with a 600 grit
sandpaper?

Or the other direction, applying a thin layer of a lacquer (or something)
that is much more agreeable with the ink?

Sorry if this has been covered 5,000 posts ago.

Robert
:)


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

I agree repeatability must be ensured.

If several things can go wrong we must isolate them one by one.

For applying the silicone i found a steel squeegee is very suitable. I do  
not think some kind of distance keeper will help.
I put the paper on a glass plate to have a flat surface.
The thickness can be well gauged by color, if you use a colored silicone  
(ideally not transparent, white, or black ;-) ))


The frustrating thing is that the results are _SO_ good when it works,  
even if there are flaws in areas, that makes me think this must be  
possible to get reliable if it works sometimes. I mean when there was no  
problem the paper just lifts off almost by itself when it leaves the  
fuser, and the result is like printed directly on copper.


ST


On Tue, 10 May 2005 01:37:18 +0200, Martin Haverland  
<professional@...> wrote:

> Some additional point inserted:
>
>> i came to the same conclusions like you independently
>> i'm looking for a simple method to make the experiments repeatable to  
>> get
>> an
>> advantage over the exposure method if you have to do more than one
>> board....
>> What i found out / think by myself until now is:
>> - keep out of the borders the printer uses mechanically to transport the
>> paper...or end up like us repairing printers...
>> - let the silicone coating dry out...i used the heatgun to speed up
>> things...
>> - try lower ironing temperature (to let the toner melt, but not the
>> silicone)
> a sensible point: trying to iron directly after the print: the toner will
> not be dried / cooled down ...(?)
>
>> - the coating has to be sticky enough but not too glossy (how about not
>> glossy at all?) to get the toner in the right position and not damage
>> parts of the printer...
> sensible point / idea: the good results of the Reichelt catalogue pages!
> Good because it is a physically flattened "natural" paper but not shiny
> coated surface. Maybe thats possible with silicone more easy with a  
> coating
> on better paper thickness for better results...
>
>> - make the coating repeatable even (i'm not sure, what kind of tool and
>> method to use to get a fair result pasting the silicone to the paper)
> What kind of simple mechanical treatment must be used for repeatable
> results?
> What kind of everyday *tool* gives the best even surface for a nearly  
> din a
> 4 kind of plane?
>  How do we achieve the best stickyness for the print and how do we proof
> ?(!!!!)  (Important because of the very different results we get from
> perfect to indiscussable.)
>
>>
>> that seem to be the most important points to me.
>> anything not mentioned about that???
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Martin
> PS: i hope nobody knows i studied physics at university long ago...:-)

In a message dated 5/9/2005 11:49:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
alienrelics@... writes:

They  won't work. Dye sub inks work by dyeing a polymer coating. Dye
sub onto  bare metal will not transfer at all.

http://www.dyesub.org

Steve  Greenfield



Hi Steve,
I beg to disagree with you! Sorry! I went to  show in  April. There was a 
company there that had a modified Epson printer running a  large dye sub 
conversion. They were able to print pictures and graphics on "ANY  SURFACE". 
Technology changes at light speed these days. To prove their point  they were printing 
their logo on aluminum sided coffee mugs. I asked about doing  PCB's and they 
said they were working with someone to come out with a stand  alone unit to 
print directly on PCB's. They said it should be available to the  general public 
by late spring. When I get the announcement I will post it  here!
 
Ray Russell
NMRA-40609
"Norfolk & Western Railroad"   "Pocahontas Division"  "Circa 1958"
Visit The "NEW" Pocahontas Web  site at: 
_http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html_ 
(http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html) 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"The earth, she is flat like your head!"
- little Spanish dude in Bugs Bunny.

They said "they were working with someone".  That does not mean they are
using their inks in stock form.  Give the guy a chance to release his
information when it comes out.  I know I'm looking forward to the release of
this printer.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de rruss45826@...
Envoyé : mai 10 2005 17:18
À : Homebrew_PCBs@...m
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: INkejet printing right on a circuit
board....


 
In a message dated 5/9/2005 11:49:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
alienrelics@... writes:

They  won't work. Dye sub inks work by dyeing a polymer coating. Dye sub
onto  bare metal will not transfer at all.

http://www.dyesub.org

Steve  Greenfield




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Hmmm,  I think I know someone in the marketing department at Epson.  
IF I run across his card I will drop him a call and find out more if 
he knows.  He is in the consumer printer market, but I am guessing 
he can find out more if asked.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan 
<robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
> "The earth, she is flat like your head!"
> - little Spanish dude in Bugs Bunny.
> 
> They said "they were working with someone".  That does not mean 
they are
> using their inks in stock form.  Give the guy a chance to release 
his
> information when it comes out.  I know I'm looking forward to the 
release of
> this printer.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
> la part de rruss45826@a...
> Envoyé : mai 10 2005 17:18
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: INkejet printing right on a circuit
> board....
> 
> 
>  
> In a message dated 5/9/2005 11:49:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> alienrelics@y... writes:
> 
> They  won't work. Dye sub inks work by dyeing a polymer coating. 
Dye sub
> onto  bare metal will not transfer at all.
> 
> http://www.dyesub.org
> 
> Steve  Greenfield
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, rruss45826@a... wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 5/9/2005 11:49:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> alienrelics@y... writes:
> 
> They  won't work. Dye sub inks work by dyeing a polymer coating. Dye
> sub onto  bare metal will not transfer at all.
> 
> http://www.dyesub.org
> 
> Steve  Greenfield
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Steve,
> I beg to disagree with you! Sorry! I went to  show in  April. There
was a 
> company there that had a modified Epson printer running a  large dye
sub 
> conversion. They were able to print pictures and graphics on "ANY 
SURFACE". 

You can disagree all you want. ;')

However, that is not dye sublimation. By definition, dye sublimation
works by dye sublimating from solid particles on a carrier (paper,
ribbon, etc) into gas, then hitting the surface and sublimating back
into solid form. But the gas has to have something to absorb into.

Do you have a link? Company name?

There are solid ink printers that use wax/resin that print on
untreated surfaces. Look up CD printers, there are a lot that use that
method. There are some solvent ink printers that will print onto
untreated surfaces, but generally only wide format, very expensive,
and loads of harmful vapors.

If you've noticed something new, we want to know about it.

Steve Greenfield

The silicone paper is frustrating me a lot.
Instead of getting better things seem to get only worse.


I have picked up a 20cm wide stainless squeegee which is great for  
spreading the silicone very evenly (also, it is great for scraping off  
toner off PCBs).

However, everything else is not good at all. the printouts are destroied  
in areas, i think by the fuser. the transfer is not working properly. In  
areas all is well but never the whole board. The frustrating thing is that  
it gets worse by the minute instead of better.

I've had well enough for today, right now i don't know how to proceed.  
Systematic troubleshooting should be the answer, but i don't seem capable  
right now to do that. It is the first time i begin to have doubts about  
the paper, better get a good book and stop for today.

ST

I checked out the silicone coated paper at the office supply place and it's 
a no go. You can't even tell there is silicone in there, the layer is so 
incredibly thin. It's about $13 for a ream of the stuff but I don't feel 
like wasting the money. They told me that there is available a paper that 
has a much thicker coating on very heavy stock 45 lbs that cost about $45 
for a ream, they are going to try to get me 10 sample sheets. If anything 
comes of it I will let the group know.

At 02:15 PM 5/12/2005, you wrote:
>The silicone paper is frustrating me a lot.
>Instead of getting better things seem to get only worse.
>
>
>I have picked up a 20cm wide stainless squeegee which is great for
>spreading the silicone very evenly (also, it is great for scraping off
>toner off PCBs).
>
>However, everything else is not good at all. the printouts are destroied
>in areas, i think by the fuser. the transfer is not working properly. In
>areas all is well but never the whole board. The frustrating thing is that
>it gets worse by the minute instead of better.
>
>I've had well enough for today, right now i don't know how to proceed.
>Systematic troubleshooting should be the answer, but i don't seem capable
>right now to do that. It is the first time i begin to have doubts about
>the paper, better get a good book and stop for today.
>
>ST
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 5/12/2005

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com

'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you 
with experience.'

On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:16:08 -0500, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@...> wrote:

> I checked out the silicone coated paper at the office supply place and  
> it's
> a no go. You can't even tell there is silicone in there, the layer is so
> incredibly thin. It's about $13 for a ream of the stuff but I don't feel
> like wasting the money. They told me that there is available a paper that
> has a much thicker coating on very heavy stock 45 lbs that cost about $45
> for a ream, they are going to try to get me 10 sample sheets. If anything
> comes of it I will let the group know.


No, i fear too that silicone in homeopathic doses will not do any good.
When i scrape it so thin that the surface becomes dull (paper fibers  
sticking through) it doesn't seem to transfer well, for some reason.

I'm not really sure that searching for commercial paper is the way to go,  
as you are probably rather limited to one type of silicone and one  
thickness. (Granted, it will at least be repeatable). But if you find  
something i'm very curious to hear of it.

ST

In a message dated 5/11/2005 2:14:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
alienrelics@... writes:

If  you've noticed something new, we want to know about it.

Steve  Greenfield




Steve,
I will look and see if did save the info. I am holding a  coaster with a 
picture of NY city on it but there was no web site on the back of  it. As soon as 
I find it I will post it.
 
Ray Russell
NMRA-40609
General Contractor
Norfolk &  Western Railroad
Pocahontas Division
Circa 1958
Visit The "NEW"  Pocahontas Website at:_ Click here: N  & W Pocahontas  
Division_ (http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html) 
http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html

OR_ Click here:  Pocahontas Home_ 
(http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm)  
For the old website!  
http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi,

i just did he following:

I used sandpaper to sand the surface of silicone coated paper, and i did  
not see the destructive effects of the fuser. I ill try to transfer now.

This is all very preliminary and i will do more experiments now, including  
photodocumentation of the process and problems i see, in the hopes of  
getting good ideas from you.

ST

Has anyone had any real success with Inkjets?> I find that most can't even 
touch a Laserjet in terms of line quality.

Photos are very deceptive, your mind fills in details that don't exist, a 
PCB is another story.

I'm just wondering, I have been in photography for over 40 years, and ever 
since they have come out I have never seen one that had enough quality and 
not require you to mortgage your house.

At 11:33 PM 5/12/2005, rruss45826@... wrote:
>
>In a message dated 5/11/2005 2:14:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>alienrelics@... writes:
>
>If  you've noticed something new, we want to know about it.
>
>Steve  Greenfield
>
>
>
>
>Steve,
>I will look and see if did save the info. I am holding a  coaster with a
>picture of NY city on it but there was no web site on the back of  it. As 
>soon as
>I find it I will post it.
>
>Ray Russell
>NMRA-40609
>General Contractor
>Norfolk &  Western Railroad
>Pocahontas Division
>Circa 1958
>Visit The "NEW"  Pocahontas Website at:_ Click here: N  & W Pocahontas
>Division_ (http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html)
>http://members.aol.com/rruss45826/public_html/index.html
>
>OR_ Click here:  Pocahontas Home_
>(http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm)
>For the old website!
>http://milliron.home.sprynet.com/Pocahontas/Pocahontas1.htm
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>ivery.<br>
>   <br>
>   </font><a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36011U4786296"><font 
> face="Verdana, Arial, sans-serif" size="2" color="#0099BA"><font size="1">Click
>   here</font></font></a> <font color="#0099BA" face="Verdana, Arial, 
> sans-serif" size="1">if
>   you have trouble viewing this e-mail.</font></p>
><table width="575" border="0" cellspacing="0" 
>cellpadding="0"  style="border: 1 solid #999999">
>   <tr align="left" valign="top">
>     <td height="94" colspan="2"><img 
> src="http://campaign-images.kohls.com/campaign/20050512fifty_v2/nav05_amsum.gif" 
> width="575" height="72" usemap="#topnavmap" border="0"></td>
>   </tr>
>   <tr align="center" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
>     <td height="413" colspan="2"><a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36012U4786296"><img 
> src="http://campaign-images.kohls.com/campaign/20050512fifty_v2/50off.gif" 
>   alt="50% Off Sale Friday & Saturday only!" width="575" height="395" 
> border="0" usemap="#Map"></a></td>
>   </tr>
>   <tr align="left" valign="top">
>     <td colspan="2"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" 
> cellpadding="0">
>         <tr align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
>           <td width="99%" bgcolor="#F7F7F7"><img 
> src="http://campaign-images.kohls.com/campaign/20050512fifty_v2/top.jpg" 
> alt="50% Off savings in every department!" width="575" height="177"></td>
>         </tr>
>         <tr align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
>           <td bgcolor="#F7F7F7"> <table width="575" border="0" 
> cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
>               <tr align="center" valign="top" bgcolor="#f7f7f7">
>                 <td width="33%" height="79"><font face="Verdana, 
> Arial"><strong><font size="2">50%
>                   Off</font></strong><br>
>                   <font size="1">ENTIRE STOCK<br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36013U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Women's Sonoma\u2122<br>
>                   Capris and Crop Pants</font></a></font></font></td>
>                 <td width="33%"><font face="Verdana, Arial"><strong><font 
> size="2">50%
>                   Off</font></strong><br>
>                   <font size="1"><a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36014U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Women\u2019s
>                   Havana Jack\u2019s<br>
>                   Caf� Separates</font></a></font></font></td>
>                 <td width="33%"><font face="Verdana, Arial"><strong><font 
> size="2">50%
>                   Off</font></strong><br>
>                   <font size="1">ENTIRE STOCK<br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36015U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Juniors\u2019
>                   Knit Tops</font></a></font></font></td>
>               </tr>
>             </table></td>
>         </tr>
>         <tr align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
>           <td bgcolor="#F7F7F7"><img 
> src="http://campaign-images.kohls.com/campaign/20050512fifty_v2/nottop.jpg 
> " alt="50% Off savings in every department!" width="575" height="177"></td>
>         </tr>
>         <tr align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
>           <td bgcolor="#F7f7f7"> <table width="575" border="0" 
> cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
>               <tr align="center" valign="top" bgcolor="#f7f7f7">
>                 <td width="33%" height="75"><font face="Verdana, 
> Arial"><strong><font size="2">50%
>                   Off</font></strong><br>
>                   <font size="1">ENTIRE STOCK<br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36016U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Men\u2019s
>                   Newport Blue\u2122<br>
>                   Graphic Tees</font></a></font></font><font size="1" 
> face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
>                   � </font></td>
>                 <td width="33%"><font face="Verdana, Arial"><strong><font 
> size="2">50%
>                   Off</font></strong><br>
>                   <font size="1">ENTIRE STOCK<br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36017U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Urban
>                   Pipeline\u2122 Apparel<br>
>                   for Boys 8-20</font></a></font></font></td>
>                 <td width="33%"><font face="Verdana, Arial"><strong><font 
> size="2">50%
>                   Off</font></strong><br>
>                   <font size="1">ENTIRE STOCK<br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36018U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Dinnerware</font></a><br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36019U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Flatware</font></a><br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36020U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Glassware</font></a><br>
>                   <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36021U4786296"><font 
> color="0099BA">Pantryware</font></a><br>
>                   <font color="0099BA">�</font></font></font></td>
>               </tr>
>             </table></td>
>         </tr>
>       </table></td>
>   </tr>
>   <tr>
>     <td height="1" colspan="2" align="left" valign="top" 
> bgcolor="#999999"><img 
> src="http://campaign-images.kohls.com/campaign/20050512fifty_v2/shim2.gif" 
>   width="1" height="1"></td>
>   </tr>
>   <tr>
>     <td height="57" align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">�</td>
>     <td height="57" align="left" valign="middle" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font 
> size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><font 
> color="#666666">60%
>       Clearance, New Markdowns </font></strong><font color="#666666"><br>
>       Shop</font> <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36022U4786296"><font 
> color="#0099BA">Kohls.com
>       Clearance</font></a> <font color="#666666">for up to 60% off** 
> original
>       prices on items from every department.<br>
>       But hurry\u2014quantities are limited, and deals like these 
> won\u2019t
>       last!</font></font></td>
>   </tr>
>   <tr>
>     <td height="1" colspan="2" align="left" valign="top" 
> bgcolor="#999999"><img 
> src="http://campaign-images.kohls.com/campaign/20050512fifty_v2/shim2.gif" 
>   width="1" height="1"></td>
>   </tr>
>   <tr>
>     <td width="10" height="156" align="left" valign="middle"> 
> <p>�</p></td>
>     <td width="565" align="left" valign="middle"> <font face="Verdana, 
> Arial, sans-serif" size="1" color="#999999">
>       <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">�<br>
>       *Surcharges may apply due to size, weight or special handling 
> required.
>       If your item has a surcharge, it will appear on the product page.<br>
>       </font> <br>
>       **Clearance prices represent savings off original prices. Interim 
> markdowns
>       may have been taken. Sorry, no price adjustments on prior 
> purchases.</font><font face="Verdana, Arial, sans-serif" size="1" 
> color="#999999"><br>
>       <br>
>       This mailbox is unattended, so please do not reply to this message. 
> If you
>       no longer wish to receive e-mails from Kohls.com, unsubscribe <a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36023U4786296"><font 
> color="#0099BA" size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">here</font></a>.
>       For other inquiries, e-mail us at <a 
> href="mailto:myaccount.help@..."><font 
> color="#0099BA">myaccount.help@...</font></a>,
>       or write us at Kohl's Department Stores, Attention: Customer 
> Service, N56
>       W17000 Ridgewood Drive, Menomonee Falls, WI 53051.<br>
>       <br>
>       </font><font face="Verdana, Arial, sans-serif" size="1" 
> color="#999999"><a 
> href="http://campaign.kohls.com/redirect.jsp?cmID=C222775633L36024U4786296"><font 
> color="#0099BA">Find
>       a Kohl's</font></a> near you!</font><font color="#999999" size="1" fac
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 5/12/2005

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com

'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you 
with experience.'

They are superior in geometry and resolution for producing films.

ST

On Fri, 13 May 2005 07:00:55 -0500, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@...> wrote:

> Has anyone had any real success with Inkjets?> I find that most can't  
> even
> touch a Laserjet in terms of line quality.
> Photos are very deceptive, your mind fills in details that don't exist, a
> PCB is another story.
> I'm just wondering, I have been in photography for over 40 years, and  
> ever
> since they have come out I have never seen one that had enough quality  
> and
> not require you to mortgage your house.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@c...> wrote:
> Has anyone had any real success with Inkjets?> I find that most 
can't even 
> touch a Laserjet in terms of line quality.
> 
> Photos are very deceptive, your mind fills in details that don't 
exist, a 
> PCB is another story.


Yes Inkjets work very well for doing transparencies, you do have to 
use the correct type transparency for your machine.  

I use to use the Black ink with somewhat good results, but not long 
ago learned from someone on one of the lists don't remember if it 
was this one that Yellow ink blocks UV, he recommends use the photo 
inks using Yellow and Green together think it was.  Myself I use a 
HP CP 1700 printer, print the Transparency using the Yellow ink 
only, has always worked Great for me so far.  AS I recall from his 
test, was that Cannon printers where the best machines to use, using 
Photo Ink.

Ben

What do you consider well? I have some projects that need .010 lines and 
spacing, can it do that well?

At 09:55 PM 5/15/2005, you wrote:
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@c...> wrote:
> > Has anyone had any real success with Inkjets?> I find that most
>can't even
> > touch a Laserjet in terms of line quality.
> >
> > Photos are very deceptive, your mind fills in details that don't
>exist, a
> > PCB is another story.
>
>
>Yes Inkjets work very well for doing transparencies, you do have to
>use the correct type transparency for your machine.
>
>I use to use the Black ink with somewhat good results, but not long
>ago learned from someone on one of the lists don't remember if it
>was this one that Yellow ink blocks UV, he recommends use the photo
>inks using Yellow and Green together think it was.  Myself I use a
>HP CP 1700 printer, print the Transparency using the Yellow ink
>only, has always worked Great for me so far.  AS I recall from his
>test, was that Cannon printers where the best machines to use, using
>Photo Ink.
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA

I used my little ol Cannon BJC85 with the transparencies and obtained good results .... I put the transparencies through the printer a couple of times to get a very dark layer of Black ink and with perfect results at times 80% of the time but those bigger PCB's at 150mm x 250mm that are double sided could become a pita ... and then I read here about using Yellow Inks ..oh well !!!
Thomas



  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@c...> wrote:
  > Has anyone had any real success with Inkjets?> I find that most 
  can't even 
  > touch a Laserjet in terms of line quality.
  > 
  > Photos are very deceptive, your mind fills in details that don't 
  exist, a 
  > PCB is another story.


  Yes Inkjets work very well for doing transparencies, you do have to 
  use the correct type transparency for your machine.  

  I use to use the Black ink with somewhat good results, but not long 
  ago learned from someone on one of the lists don't remember if it 
  was this one that Yellow ink blocks UV, he recommends use the photo 
  inks using Yellow and Green together think it was.  Myself I use a 
  HP CP 1700 printer, print the Transparency using the Yellow ink 
  only, has always worked Great for me so far.  AS I recall from his 
  test, was that Cannon printers where the best machines to use, using 
  Photo Ink.

  Ben





  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
  Yahoo! Groups Links



   



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ben H. Lanmon" <bhleavi@y...>
wrote:

...
> I use to use the Black ink with somewhat good results, but not long 
> ago learned from someone on one of the lists don't remember if it 
> was this one that Yellow ink blocks UV, he recommends use the photo 
> inks using Yellow and Green together think it was.  Myself I use a 
> HP CP 1700 printer, print the Transparency using the Yellow ink 
> only, has always worked Great for me so far.  AS I recall from his 
> test, was that Cannon printers where the best machines to use, using 
> Photo Ink.

I think it was me, here, passing it on from the Screenprinters list.
Someone did some thinking about the fact that Canon had to make the
lighter photo shades of ink UV fade resistant, that maybe it would
block UV better than black. He did some experiments and found it to be
true.

I think it was Photo Cyan and Yellow that were the most UV dense, so
he printed a yellowish light green. If you print dark green, the
printer will use regular Cyan.

Steve Greenfield

On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:03:44 -0500, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@...> wrote:

> What do you consider well? I have some projects that need .010 lines and
> spacing, can it do that well?


what are .010? this is an international list please always use units.

If i assume it is inch that would be 0.25mm, and absolutely no problem  
with a 600dpi printer (even 300 might do).

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@c...> wrote:
> What do you consider well? I have some projects that need .010 lines 
and 
> spacing, can it do that well?
 

Smallest traces that I have done is .020", I don't normally have a 
need for anything smaller, but the Board Edge line that I use to cut 
them apart is I believe at .010" but don't know how reliable it would 
be for a circuit trace that small or at that spacing never had to try 
it.  I think that it would be pushing the limits, but could work.  I 
know that I had tried at first .005" for the board edge line and would 
lose about half the line at times in the etching.  However when I did 
the .005" board edge line I was using Black ink, have now found that 
yellow ink works better.  All I can say is to try it.

Ben

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:
> I used my little ol Cannon BJC85 with the transparencies and 
obtained good results .... I put the transparencies through the 
printer a couple of times to get a very dark layer of Black ink and 
with perfect results at times 80% of the time but those bigger PCB's 
at 150mm x 250mm that are double sided could become a pita ... and 
then I read here about using Yellow Inks ..oh well !!!


BJC85 that sounds like the model # of my little portable printer I 
use in the truck with my laptop, Does OK on paper anyway never tried 
it with Transparencies.  Yes give the Yellow ink a try, I think you 
will find that it does a lot better than the Black ink, blocks UV 
better.  I have held transparencies done in Black and could not see 
thru it and did just OK.  But using Yellow yes you can see thru it 
but it blocks UV.  Most likely running it thru multiple times does 
not give you the sharpest image either.  I know with my HP 1700 
sometime the second run thru would line up good and sometime it 
would not just slightly off.  I think that you will like the results 
of using the yellow ink.  

Ben

getting that Black Ink Stucco'd so to speak onto the OHP Film with out any misalignment is painfull sometimes, however printing it twice was probably enough but I would give it a 3rd layer.
is just one layer of Yellow ink enough to block the UV , perhaps a Photo Print head with a pigment ink would work better ? I just may get another Print Head for it .... that wee printer is still delivering the goods after 5 years and countless refils
Thomas

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ben H. Lanmon 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:21 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing right on a circuit board....


  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:
  > I used my little ol Cannon BJC85 with the transparencies and 
  obtained good results .... I put the transparencies through the 
  printer a couple of times to get a very dark layer of Black ink and 
  with perfect results at times 80% of the time but those bigger PCB's 
  at 150mm x 250mm that are double sided could become a pita ... and 
  then I read here about using Yellow Inks ..oh well !!!


  BJC85 that sounds like the model # of my little portable printer I 
  use in the truck with my laptop, Does OK on paper anyway never tried 
  it with Transparencies.  Yes give the Yellow ink a try, I think you 
  will find that it does a lot better than the Black ink, blocks UV 
  better.  I have held transparencies done in Black and could not see 
  thru it and did just OK.  But using Yellow yes you can see thru it 
  but it blocks UV.  Most likely running it thru multiple times does 
  not give you the sharpest image either.  I know with my HP 1700 
  sometime the second run thru would line up good and sometime it 
  would not just slightly off.  I think that you will like the results 
  of using the yellow ink.  

  Ben





  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
  Yahoo! Groups Links



   



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]