Homebrew PCBs

Just got this from another list. Someone says DynaArt (one of the
makers of the laser toner transfer system) says:

***Begin forwarded message***

... When I phoned the DynaArt people, the guy said there is a
better method devised for this and he explained it to me and I was
wondering if anyone has tried it.

This method uses the following: Purchase an Oven Bag (the clear see

through bags for cooking turkeys in the oven) also a Heat Gun (hot
air paint stripper gun set at the highest heat setting) and also a
Shop Vac (vacuum cleaner)

Place the art work onto the circuit board and tape into position.
Then place the board into the oven bag and insert the vacuum hose
inside the bag and seal it with a rubber band. Turn on the vacuum,
then use the hot air gun to heat the art work on the paper and the
board for about 2 to 3 minutes and that's it. Place the board in
water right after heating and the paper floats away leaving the art
work on the board.
***End forwarded message***

So, whatdya think?

Steve Greenfield

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Hi Steve,
         But how was the print on the paper made? Laser printer?
I only own an ink jet.

                                    John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@y...> wrote:

> Just got this from another list. Someone says DynaArt (one of the
> makers of the laser toner transfer system) says:
> 
> ***Begin forwarded message***
> 
> ... When I phoned the DynaArt people, the guy said there is a
> better method devised for this and he explained it to me and I was
> wondering if anyone has tried it.
> 
> This method uses the following: Purchase an Oven Bag (the clear see
> 
> through bags for cooking turkeys in the oven) also a Heat Gun (hot
> air paint stripper gun set at the highest heat setting) and also a
> Shop Vac (vacuum cleaner)
> 
> Place the art work onto the circuit board and tape into position.
> Then place the board into the oven bag and insert the vacuum hose
> inside the bag and seal it with a rubber band. Turn on the vacuum,
> then use the hot air gun to heat the art work on the paper and the
> board for about 2 to 3 minutes and that's it. Place the board in
> water right after heating and the paper floats away leaving the art
> work on the board.
> ***End forwarded message***
> 
> So, whatdya think?
> 
> Steve Greenfield
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com

I don't think it will work so good. For one thing those heat guns produce
1500F that will probably melt the bag. Second if the plastic bag is not
applying good pressure it will leave traces open that did not bond.
I would look for a good t-shirt press or iron even a shirt press might work
good. On these you have control of time, pressure and heat. These are
important for good transfer.
Other things to look for is a flat PCB and clean.
Derek B.
High Tech Systems
Denver, Co.

-----Original Message-----



 Turn on the vacuum,
then use the hot air gun to heat the art work on the paper and the
board for about 2 to 3 minutes and that's it. Place the board in
water right after heating and the paper floats away leaving the art
work on the board.
***End forwarded message***

So, whatdya think?

Steve Greenfield

___

A Tshirt press may be ideal, but very expensive. You could send out
to have an awful lot of boards made for the $500 to $1000 it costs
for a good Tshirt press with adjustable temp and pressure.

That said, I just picked up a small double sided grill, like one of
those sandwich presses except it is flat on both sides.

Steve Greenfield

--- High Tech <hightechsystems@...> wrote:
> I don't think it will work so good. For one thing those heat guns
> produce
> 1500F that will probably melt the bag. Second if the plastic bag
> is not
> applying good pressure it will leave traces open that did not
> bond.
> I would look for a good t-shirt press or iron even a shirt press
> might work
> good. On these you have control of time, pressure and heat. These
> are
> important for good transfer.
> Other things to look for is a flat PCB and clean.
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.


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--- crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>          But how was the print on the paper made? Laser printer?
> I only own an ink jet.

Yes, laser printer. I thought you were familiar with the toner
transfer process.

http://www.dynaart.com/

For anyone who doesn't know: The basic idea behind toner transfer
etch resist is that you either print your PCB pattern from your
laser printer onto a special film or photocopy it onto the special
film/paper. Then you basically iron it onto the bare board and
either peel or soak the film/paper off. The toner melts and sticks
to the copper and resists the acid in the etch bath.

Check the links of the Homebrew_PCBs main page for more suppliers
and info.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

Steve


=====
Steve Greenfield               // Digital photo scanning, retouching,
Polymorph Digital Photography // and photomorphing to your specs.
253/318-2473 voice           // We use the best little computer in
polymorph@...     // the world, the Amiga!
http://www.polyphoto.com/  // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA

__________________________________________________
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Hi Steve,
         Using a heatgun-plastic bag and vacuum instead of
an iron seems to be crazy. I was hoping you would say inkjet! I
do know about the plastic sheets that go through a copier. Over
the years I have been given several copiers. Everyone had a 
scratched or bad drum. Since I bought a good scanner and digital
camera I gave up the idea.
         Steve I sent some boards out to a PC house. I had to Redraw
my artwork using Eagle. What an experience. I got lots of help
from Hans.

                                            John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> --- crankorgan <john@k...> wrote:
> > Hi Steve,
> >          But how was the print on the paper made? Laser printer?
> > I only own an ink jet.
> 
> Yes, laser printer. I thought you were familiar with the toner
> transfer process.
> 
> http://www.dynaart.com/
> 
> For anyone who doesn't know: The basic idea behind toner transfer
> etch resist is that you either print your PCB pattern from your
> laser printer onto a special film or photocopy it onto the special
> film/paper. Then you basically iron it onto the bare board and
> either peel or soak the film/paper off. The toner melts and sticks
> to the copper and resists the acid in the etch bath.
> 
> Check the links of the Homebrew_PCBs main page for more suppliers
> and info.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> =====
> Steve Greenfield               // Digital photo scanning, 
retouching,

> Polymorph Digital Photography // and photomorphing to your specs.
> 253/318-2473 voice           // We use the best little computer in
> polymorph@p...     // the world, the Amiga!
> http://www.polyphoto.com/  // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com

Steve I was looking at the small ones $275 9"x12".
http://www.knightheatpress.com/jet.htm
ebay search $83.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1762872906

I don't recommend Dyna-art I didn't like their product although this has
been some time ago that I used it.
I would recommend
http://www.techniks.com/
Pnp blue it stores for years if you don't scratch the traces.

If someone would like to try Techniks PNP Blue I can sell you the sheets.
Contact me off list.
Derek B.
High Tech Systems
Denver, Co.


A Tshirt press may be ideal, but very expensive. You could send out
to have an awful lot of boards made for the $500 to $1000 it costs
for a good Tshirt press with adjustable temp and pressure.

That said, I just picked up a small double sided grill, like one of
those sandwich presses except it is flat on both sides.

Steve Greenfield

--- High Tech <hightechsystems@...> wrote:
> I don't think it will work so good. For one thing those heat guns
> produce
> 1500F that will probably melt the bag. Second if the plastic bag
> is not
> applying good pressure it will leave traces open that did not
> bond.
> I would look for a good t-shirt press or iron even a shirt press
> might work
> good. On these you have control of time, pressure and heat. These
> are
> important for good transfer.
> Other things to look for is a flat PCB and clean.
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.


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Since we are talking about toner transfer method, I thought I would 
throw my 2 cents in.

I have been using and have had great success with this method using 
an old photographic dry mount press.  It is intended for bonding 
photographs to mount board (a stiff cardboard used for matting 
photos).

I had this unit for many years, and recently (in the last few years) 
started using it for toner transfer.  It has a temperature control 
and has perfectly flat surfaces.

The best results were obtained using the P-N-P Blue transfer sheets 
(I have gotten away with two traces between pads of a DIP device on 
more than one occasion).

Sounds great I will have to keep an eye out for one of these at the auctions
I go to.
Can you throw up a picture in the file section say under Homemade pcb
equipment.
Thanks
Derek B.
High Tech Systems
Denver, Co.

-----Original Message-----



Since we are talking about toner transfer method, I thought I would
throw my 2 cents in.

I have been using and have had great success with this method using
an old photographic dry mount press.  It is intended for bonding
photographs to mount board (a stiff cardboard used for matting
photos).

I had this unit for many years, and recently (in the last few years)
started using it for toner transfer.  It has a temperature control
and has perfectly flat surfaces.

The best results were obtained using the P-N-P Blue transfer sheets
(I have gotten away with two traces between pads of a DIP device on
more than one occasion).

--- High Tech <hightechsystems@...> wrote:
> Steve I was looking at the small ones $275 9"x12".
> http://www.knightheatpress.com/jet.htm

Not to nitpick, but "The temperature of the JP12 is preset at 375
degrees and cannot be changed." Their model further down the page
with adjustable temp is $429.

> ebay search $83.00
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1762872906

Again, not to nitpick but the price means nothing until the auction
is over. Between when you posted and now, it went up to $127.50 and
it has days left to go.

> I don't recommend Dyna-art I didn't like their product although
> this has
> been some time ago that I used it.
> I would recommend
> http://www.techniks.com/
> Pnp blue it stores for years if you don't scratch the traces.

PNP Blue is supposed to solve the problem of pinholes in the toner.

> If someone would like to try Techniks PNP Blue I can sell you the
> sheets.
> Contact me off list.
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.

That is good to know.

Steve Greenfield


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Ask and you shall recieve.....

I posted 5 pics of the Press


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "High Tech" <hightechsystems@a...> wrote:
> Sounds great I will have to keep an eye out for one of these at the 
auctions
> I go to.
> Can you throw up a picture in the file section say under Homemade 
pcb

> equipment.
> Thanks
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.
>

Steve I agree the prices seem high. That's why I shop at auctions to save
money. I was just trying to show that if you shop around you might be able
to pick one up at a low price. These two examples are the first ones I found
doing a   search. PNP does not solve the pinhole problem completely it is
designed so you can have a very small hole in the center of Pads for
drilling and very fine lines.
Tips: when printing always use the darkest setting you can before you start
having shadows or spots. When cleaning the blue off the PCB you can use
lacquer thinner the blue falls off when you wash it with this stuff. Be
careful this stuff is Flammable.

I don't like it when people say it is too hard to do. Not that you are. But
when I first started I could not afford a laser printer. So off to Office
depot to use the copier 10c a copy. Please, any one can find this amount of
coin and go make a PCB. As Nike says Just Do It.

Of course I like others am always looking for a better way of doing things.
What I like about Blue is it costs $1.50 a sheet. I can get anywhere from 9
to 50 PCBs on a sheet on average. That's 17c to .03c per PCB the rest of the
cost is the same as other methods, enchants and the PCB themselves plus
coatings. The only thing I don't like is doing 2 sided boards so a better
method would be nice.

Maybe we can have a poll as to what method everyone is using?

Derek B.
High Tech Systems
Denver, Co.

-----Original Message-----


--- High Tech <hightechsystems@...> wrote:
> Steve I was looking at the small ones $275 9"x12".
> http://www.knightheatpress.com/jet.htm

Not to nitpick, but "The temperature of the JP12 is preset at 375
degrees and cannot be changed." Their model further down the page
with adjustable temp is $429.

> ebay search $83.00
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1762872906

Again, not to nitpick but the price means nothing until the auction
is over. Between when you posted and now, it went up to $127.50 and
it has days left to go.

> I don't recommend Dyna-art I didn't like their product although
> this has
> been some time ago that I used it.
> I would recommend
> http://www.techniks.com/
> Pnp blue it stores for years if you don't scratch the traces.

PNP Blue is supposed to solve the problem of pinholes in the toner.

> If someone would like to try Techniks PNP Blue I can sell you the
> sheets.
> Contact me off list.
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.

That is good to know.

Steve Greenfield

Couple of questions it looks like you have it set at max temp 375F
approximately in Pic #3. Is that what you are using and how long does it
take? What is the cardboard for?
Derek B.
High Tech Systems
Denver, Co.

-----Original Message-----
From: johnman


Ask and you shall recieve.....

I posted 5 pics of the Press


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "High Tech" <hightechsystems@a...> wrote:
> Sounds great I will have to keep an eye out for one of these at the
auctions
> I go to.
> Can you throw up a picture in the file section say under Homemade
pcb
> equipment.
> Thanks
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.
>



--

And here's one on eBay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1762040579

--- johnman9146 <johnman@...> wrote:
> Ask and you shall recieve.....
> 
> I posted 5 pics of the Press

Ouch! Over a meg for 5 pictures... you guys are gonna use up all
our space. Please crop and resize before you post.

Thx,
Steve


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Oh, I just ran down and took those pics after you asked.  I am not 
sure why the temp setting is cranked all the way up.  Perhaps someone 
was actually dry-mounting a small pic in a hurry.....

When using PNP Blue, I set it between 350 and 375.  When the set temp 
is reached, the green light blinks.

The cardboard is another one I cannot easily explain.  Obviously 
someone else was using it.  It could be that someone had used it for 
laminating a small business card or something....(hey that may 
explain the high temp setting... oh, well)

I primarily posted the pics for information so others could see what 
the dry mount press looked like.  I got a close-up of the nameplate 
to identify it and paid no attention to the setting..

Anyway, this works way better than the Iron method as the lid locks 
down and aplies even pressure and temperature to the PNP blue and PCB 
material.

When I do 2 sided boards, I drill registration holes in the corners 
of the board and the PNP Blue material.  I have made some pins that 
are ever so slightly thicker than the PCB material I use.  I simply 
drill the board and PNP material, and insert the pins.  The pins make 
sure the PNP material stays in register (doesn't slide around). The 
pins are not so thick as to keep the heat and pressure from applying 
the PNP Blue properly to the PCB.  I do one side first, then flip the 
board over and press the other side.  Then I etch.

I just wish there was an economical way to activate the through holes 
and plate the boards.  From what I know, that is almost impossible 
for the homebrew croud.   

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "High Tech" <hightechsystems@a...> wrote:
> Couple of questions it looks like you have it set at max temp 375F
> approximately in Pic #3. Is that what you are using and how long 
does it

> take? What is the cardboard for?
> Derek B.
> High Tech Systems
> Denver, Co.

Wow, that one is way newer than mine.  It seems kinda expensive 
though...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> And here's one on eBay right now:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1762040579
> 
> --- johnman9146 <johnman@d...> wrote:
> > Ask and you shall recieve.....
> > 
> > I posted 5 pics of the Press
> 

Should I reduce the res and repost?

> Ouch! Over a meg for 5 pictures... you guys are gonna use up all
> our space. Please crop and resize before you post.
> 
> Thx,
> Steve
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com

--- High Tech <hightechsystems@...> wrote:
> Steve I agree the prices seem high. That's why I shop at auctions
> to save
> money. 

Speaking of which, PersonalizeOnline has auctions running almost
all the time. $360 dutch auction on an 11x15 with variable temp:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2049317298

Of course, that is the same as their website price:

http://www.angelfire.com/home/personalizeonline/heatpresses.html

Of course, I don't have $400 to spend right now. If I did, I'd buy
this as I have a graphics business too and would use it for it's
intended use, too. Imagine that. ;')

Steve

=====
Steve Greenfield               // Digital photo scanning, retouching,
Polymorph Digital Photography // and photomorphing to your specs.
253/318-2473 voice           // We use the best little computer in
polymorph@...     // the world, the Amiga!
http://www.polyphoto.com/  // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@y...>
> wrote:
> > And here's one on eBay right now:
> > 
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1762040579

--- johnman9146 <johnman@...> wrote:
> Wow, that one is way newer than mine.  It seems kinda expensive 
> though...

And it ain't over yet! I'm very picky what I will and won't bid for
on eBay. My experience: some items people just bid crazy. I was
looking for an Adaptec 1460 laptop SCSI card last year. List price
was $120, but retail price was $70. But I saw just the card, no
cables or anything else, go for $100. They regularly went for
around $150, and one went for $250! It was very tempting to email
the 2nd and 3rd high bidders and just sell them brand new ones.

I guess I'm trying to say shop carefully.

> > --- johnman9146 <johnman@d...> wrote:
> > > Ask and you shall recieve.....
> > > 
> > > I posted 5 pics of the Press
> > 
> 
> Should I reduce the res and repost?

That would be good. I'm running 1024x768 and they are -way- bigger
than my screen. Crop out the extraneous stuff, and resize to
something around 800x600. Don't be afraid to JPG them down a bit,
you don't need the highest quality setting.

Steve

=====
Steve Greenfield               // Digital photo scanning, retouching,
Polymorph Digital Photography // and photomorphing to your specs.
253/318-2473 voice           // We use the best little computer in
polymorph@...     // the world, the Amiga!
http://www.polyphoto.com/  // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

I cropped and re-posted.  See if the sizes are better.  I keep 
forgetting that not everyone is at 1600x1200 on a 24" monitor.  
(Sorry)

> > Should I reduce the res and repost?
> 
> That would be good. I'm running 1024x768 and they are -way- bigger
> than my screen. Crop out the extraneous stuff, and resize to
> something around 800x600. Don't be afraid to JPG them down a bit,
> you don't need the highest quality setting.
> 
> Steve
> 
> =====
> Steve Greenfield

Hey, my birthday is coming up.

;')

Steve

--- johnman9146 <johnman@...> wrote:
> I cropped and re-posted.  See if the sizes are better.  I keep 
> forgetting that not everyone is at 1600x1200 on a 24" monitor.  
> (Sorry)


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I have done PNP Blue toner transfer with a t-shirt press. Works great.
Very easy to get the pressure and temperature right board after board.

Tim
[Denver, CO]

Has anyone run across any information on how to build a small
wave soldering machine?

I may have a "few" boards to stuff and it would be worth
the time saved to build or use one.

Dave