Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

> Does MY system work or
> not? Thats what I concentrate on hehe. Maybe Ill be more into it once I
> finally get my 7 upgrade hah.
> 

It seems that LP7.0 was rushed out the door with bugs and unfinished 
business. 7.1 seems to be completing the unfinished business, and I am hoping it will 
fix the numerous bugs and crashes.

By the way,   I discovered something interesting in a graphics magazine. They 
guy said that Panther's keycommands were interfering with keycommands in 
Illustratror and he found some preference to turn something off. I know I have 
experienced that same sort of problem in Logic. the keycommands I had for next 
bar and last bar go into FF and REW and other times things just don't work 
(despite double checking the keycommand window). I think its not so much a logic 
problem as an Apple problem. They designed the OS with all these key commands 
which interfer with programs usage. I hope that will get straightened out also.

GAmoore@... wrote:
> 
> It seems that LP7.0 was rushed out the door with bugs and unfinished 
> business. 7.1 seems to be completing the unfinished business, and I am 
> hoping it will fix the numerous bugs and crashes.

Along that line of thought, note the sentence that I've capitalized from 
this http://www.macosxrumors.com/ report:

"Firstly, sources definitely confirm that Tiger build 8A428 has been 
declared Golden Master, while first builds of Mac OS X 10.4.1 update 
have already appeared. However, we received several very negative 
reports about recent builds of Tiger, including the Golden Master build. 
Some sources qualified the Golden Master build as \ufffdbeta\ufffd quality 
software. This is probably one of the reasons why there was some 
confusion over the release date of Tiger last month. As we had 
speculated, APPLE AGAIN SEEMS TO FAVOUR A RELEASE STRATEGY WHEREBY IT 
RELEASES SOFTWARE EARLY AND FOLLOWS IT UP QUICKLY WITH BUG-FIXING MINOR 
RELEASES. We expect 10.4.1 to quickly follow Tiger\ufffds release \ufffd maybe in 
time for WWDC."

And while I'm reporting *RUMOURS* (NOT facts), here's a juicy one from 
http://www.thinksecret.com/ that I reckon many Logic users'd be 
interested in. Note the possibility of dual-core processors.

I sent a less detailed version of this rumour to the LUG about 2 or 3 
weeks ago; not only did it not make it to the list, but the moderator 
didn't even bother to tell me why. (Not that I need to be told, but they 
usually do out of politeness.) Oh well...

-------

April 14, 2005 - Highly reliable sources have confirmed the 
specifications of Apple's forthcoming revisions to its Power Mac G5, 
iMac G5 and eMac systems, expected to start shipping within a few days 
of Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger's April 29th release.
advertisement

New Power Mac G5 systems, code-named Q87, will top out at 2.7GHz, 
sources said, while video cards are being upgraded with double the 
SDRAM. All models will feature SuperDrives offering dual-layer DVD+R 
support, as well as DVD\ufffdRW/CD-RW compatibility.

Three primary configurations will be offered with the following 
specifications:

     * Dual-2GHz
           o 512K L2 cache per processor
           o Dual 1GHz frontside buses
           o 512MB PC3200 DDR SDRAM (4GB max.)
           o 160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive
           o 128MB DDR SDRAM ATI Radeon 9600 video card

     * Dual-2.3GHz
           o 512K L2 cache per processor
           o Dual 1.15GHz frontside buses
           o 512MB PC3200 DDR SDRAM (8GB max.)
           o 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive
           o 128MB DDR SDRAM ATI Radeon 9600 video card

     * Dual-2.7GHz
           o 512K L2 cache per processor
           o Dual 1.35GHz frontside buses
           o 512MB PC3200 DDR SDRAM (8GB max.)
           o 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive
           o 256MB DDR SDRAM ATI Radeon 9650 video card

Sources were unable to confirm at this time whether the systems will 
sport the dual-core PowerPC 970MP processor or the single-core PowerPC 
970GX, although unconfirmed notes point to the PowerPC 970MP. The second 
core would deliver performance gains far greater than the 200-300MHz 
bumps each processor is receiving alone with the update.

Also uncertain is whether a more affordable single-processor Power Mac 
G5 system will continue to be offered. After axing the model with last 
June's Power Mac G5 revision, Apple re-introduced the less expensive 
1.8GHz single-processor system in October 2004.

On Apr 14, 2005, at 5:18 PM, Bill Canty wrote:

> Along that line of thought, note the sentence that I've capitalized 
> from
> this http://www.macosxrumors.com/ report:
>
> "Firstly, sources definitely confirm that Tiger build 8A428 has been
> declared Golden Master, while first builds of Mac OS X 10.4.1 update
> have already appeared. However, we received several very negative
> reports about recent builds of Tiger, including the Golden Master 
> build.
> Some sources qualified the Golden Master build as “beta” quality
> software. This is probably one of the reasons why there was some
> confusion over the release date of Tiger last month. As we had
> speculated, APPLE AGAIN SEEMS TO FAVOUR A RELEASE STRATEGY WHEREBY IT
> RELEASES SOFTWARE EARLY AND FOLLOWS IT UP QUICKLY WITH BUG-FIXING MINOR
> RELEASES. We expect 10.4.1 to quickly follow Tiger’s release — maybe in
> time for WWDC."

Well, I for one commend Apple's strategy to releasing software.  Sure, 
when they first release a MAJOR update, it seems really buggy and many 
people have problems with it, but they work really hard at getting most 
of the bigger problems and bugs fixed quickly after the software's 
initial release.  As to what happened with applying this method to 
Logic 7.0, I don't think anyone knows what happened for sure.  (If 
anyone does, please feel free to let us all know)  The reason they 
probably use this method is so that they can isolate problems on many 
different systems that are set up in "real world" situations, rather 
than getting every little bug worked out on the beta tester's systems, 
then releasing it only to find out they have a critical error with many 
of the "real world" systems out there.  If I were Apple, I know I would 
stick with this strategy as well.

Just letting my opinion get tossed around.

-Tallyn

--- The reason they 
> probably use this method is so that they can isolate problems on many 
> different systems that are set up in "real world" situations, rather 
> than getting every little bug worked out on the beta tester's 
systems, 
> then releasing it only to find out they have a critical error with 
many 
> of the "real world" systems out there.  If I were Apple, I know I 
would 
> stick with this strategy as well.
> 
> Just letting my opinion get tossed around.
> 
> -Tallyn

With the expense of software to the consumer along with all the rules 
and regulations that go with it, that should be taken care of prior to 
release. My money has no restrictions or added stipulation. They can do 
any and everything it's meant to do the minute it hits their hands. 
If we keep buying into this nonsense, eventually we'll be purchasing 
the right to write the program ourselves. 
Gary

But then I run DP G4 500's using nodes and all sorts of AU plugins.  I 
take my work from home on a DIGI001 to my HD system at the studio with 
Dual 1.8 G5 and it works great!  Mind you I've been using audio on a 
computer for more than 15 years now and am very well experienced in it. 
  Blaming Apple for what are (IMHO) issues generated not by untested 
faulty software but user error is a waste of time.  It is what it is 
and you can either get it to work or not bit the decision is yours.  I 
support 70 Macs in 8 configurations ranging from Digital Graphic Design 
to Logic MIDI Rigs to Final Cut HD & DVD Studio Pro and Pro-Tools HD.  
When I am having problems such as you describe my first inclination is 
not to accuse Apple of some type of flim-flamery but research & 
troubleshoot the issue until it is resolved.  Sure this takes some 
patience and perseverance but it works - so does your Mac - so does 
Logic.  And so should you and everyone else whos been on the scapegoat 
as of late.  Back to music and art and leave the rest alone.

Man !




On Apr 16, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Re: Re: 7.1 update

> When I am having problems such as you describe my first inclination 
is 
> not to accuse Apple of some type of flim-flamery but research & 
> troubleshoot the issue until it is resolved.  Sure this takes some 
> patience and perseverance but it works 



That's just the point, some people have to work hard to afford the 
expensive software, leaving little time to sit for hours and figure out 
what the software companies forgot to do. If the consumer allows 
substandard products in the marketplace, the manufacturers will surely 
agree.

>>When I am having problems such as you describe my first inclination 
>> is 
>>not to accuse Apple of some type of flim-flamery but research & 
>>troubleshoot the issue until it is resolved.  Sure this takes some 
>>patience and perseverance 

SOME patience and perseverance?! In many cases that should read 
"INFINITE patience and perseverance". Not to mention *time*.

 > but it works

Yeah, sometimes. There ARE such things as bugs, ya know! And, often, the 
only so-called solution seems to be to avoid them. I'd hardly call that 
"resolving" them.

> That's just the point, some people have to work hard to afford the 
> expensive software, leaving little time to sit for hours and figure out 
> what the software companies forgot to do. If the consumer allows 
> substandard products in the marketplace, the manufacturers will surely 
> agree.

Exactly! Well put!

On Apr 16, 2005, at 3:35 AM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> I am running logic on a G5/dual 1.8 with Panther. I just bought it two 
> months ago. There is nothing other than Logic, purchased plugs and 
> virtual synths, and the most up to date Os. I have a separate internal 
> drive where I put Photoshop, Excel, Real Basic, etc.

Which third party plugins?  Are they the latest versions?  Just because 
they are legit does not mean they are stable.  PMP for example, as 
dearly as I love it, is a real flake.

How much RAM and is it good RAM?  All OSX programs are complete pigs 
about RAM unfortunately and unfortunately even the best RAM sometimes 
goes bad.

Which audio interface, which drivers.  Some IOs are real bastards and 
their drivers just love to divert the vehicle to KP city.


>  I would say that my system as plain vanilla simple and common as you 
> can get. And yet Logic is terribly unstable, key commands don't work 
> much of the time, there are other strange behaviour, and it crashes on 
> quitting regularly, ..and the occasional freeze.

Not the case here and I don't have separate systems, I do *everything* 
from the same system.  I am not saying I never have crashes, or even 
that I never have kernal panics.  Just that I don't have so many that 
it is an insurmountable impediment to my work.

>  If they didn't test logic on the most common and simple platform then 
> there is something wrong with their entire beta testing program.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yada yada yada....

They certainly do use the most common systems.  But every single system 
that it is possible to build using common place elements?  As a little 
math exercise consider the possible permutations when there are 
literally thousands of interfaces, thousands of plugins, thousands of 
video cards...  The conceivable combinations run into the trillions of 
trillions.  It gets into the realm of the number of monkeys and 
typewriters you need to randomly produce Shakespear.


> If we keep buying into this nonsense, eventually we'll be purchasing 
> the right to write the program ourselves.

Maybe you should not buy into it anymore and move your operations to a 
system based on the competing modern OS whose developers are using the 
development strategy you describe.  BTW would you tell me which one 
that is so I can too?

>> 
> Maybe you should not buy into it anymore and move your operations to 
a 
> system based on the competing modern OS whose developers are using 
the 
> development strategy you describe.  BTW would you tell me which one 
> that is so I can too?



I wish I could but that's the problem. Accepting the high cost for such 
low level efficiency is the same as the black slave saying it's ok that 
he's a slave. These products aren't new anymore, they've been around a 
long time. It's time for all the companies making these products to 
start integrating a bit of integrity into the equation for once. Maybe 
then the forum can be used as a brainstorming environment, discussing 
different ideas for usage and not a how to make it work discussion. 
I don't believe that's asking too much.
Gary

On Apr 17, 2005, at 12:14 PM, gswerner2002 wrote:

>
>  >>
>  > Maybe you should not buy into it anymore and move your operations 
> to a
>  > system based on the competing modern OS whose developers are using  
> the
>  > development strategy you describe.  BTW would you tell me which one
>  > that is so I can too?
>
> I wish I could but that's the problem. Accepting the high cost for 
> such low level efficiency is the same as the black slave saying it's 
> ok that he's a slave.

I see.

The next time I encounter a slave I will ask him if he agrees.

Personally I don't feel particularly enslaved.

I feel rather empowered by the technology and that is why I use it, 
there is nothing forcing me, just the knowledge that I can do stuff 
with this technology that I could not do with a tape machine, or a 
telephone, or a fax, or a TV, or a video tape deck or whatever.

Is there somebody holding a gun to *your* head telling you you have to 
use a computer to do your music?

> These products aren't new anymore, they've been around a long time. 
> It's time for all the companies making these products to start 
> integrating a bit of integrity into the equation for once. Maybe then 
> the forum can be used as a brainstorming environment, discussing 
> different ideas for usage and not a how to make it work discussion. I 
> don't believe that's asking too much.


If that's all there is to it then I suggest you start your own company 
and show us how it is done.  If you can do better I am sure the world 
will be beating a path to your door.

I have been reading this thread.  It is actually quite
amusing!  There are a few points I would like to make,
and then all of you can make your own conclusions.

Number 1:  Computer chips are now designed by computers.
Not without a lot of human input.  The current CPU's would
not exist if they had to be designed by hand - by humans.

Number 2:  Software is designed and written by humans.
Software the complexity of Logic Pro 7 is way beyond the
scope of the human brain.  The group that designed the
latest version are at the "hope and a prayer" stage.  Not their fault!
Until we can get computers to write the code based on what we
desire it to do (like the CPU design) there is absolutely no hope
for bug free software at this level of complexity!  Never.  When you
deal with Trillions of possibilities with in the software - there
is just no way for it to be bug free.

IMHO - I am constantly amazed some of this high end software
performs as well as it does!  Thanks to all that work on it!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dave Shirk

On Apr 17, 2005, at 2:07 AM, dennis gunn wrote:

>
> On Apr 17, 2005, at 12:14 PM, gswerner2002 wrote:
>
>>
>>  >>
>>  > Maybe you should not buy into it anymore and move your operations 
>> to a
>>  > system based on the competing modern OS whose developers are using 
>>  the
>>  > development strategy you describe.  BTW would you tell me which one
>>  > that is so I can too?
>>
>> I wish I could but that's the problem. Accepting the high cost for 
>> such low level efficiency is the same as the black slave saying it's 
>> ok that he's a slave.
>
> I see.
>
> The next time I encounter a slave I will ask him if he agrees.
>
> Personally I don't feel particularly enslaved.
>
> I feel rather empowered by the technology and that is why I use it, 
> there is nothing forcing me, just the knowledge that I can do stuff 
> with this technology that I could not do with a tape machine, or a 
> telephone, or a fax, or a TV, or a video tape deck or whatever.
>
> Is there somebody holding a gun to *your* head telling you you have to 
> use a computer to do your music?
>
>> These products aren't new anymore, they've been around a long time. 
>> It's time for all the companies making these products to start 
>> integrating a bit of integrity into the equation for once. Maybe then 
>> the forum can be used as a brainstorming environment, discussing 
>> different ideas for usage and not a how to make it work discussion. I 
>> don't believe that's asking too much.
>
>
> If that's all there is to it then I suggest you start your own company 
> and show us how it is done.  If you can do better I am sure the world 
> will be beating a path to your door.
>

On Apr 17, 2005, at 4:41 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:
>> Which third party plugins?  Are they the latest versions?  Just 
>> because
>>  they are legit does not mean they are stable.  PMP for example, as
>>  dearly as I love it, is a real flake.
>
>  I do indeed have the newest version of everything - in fact most 
> won't pass AU authorization without being updated. I have :
>  FM7, Absynth 2, Battery 2, Imposcar, CS80, PSP Mix Pack and Vintage 
> Warmer, Elemental Audio (all), UAudio, Vanguard, Zebra, Cameleon.

Just about anything NI has had a long history of being rather fucked in 
terms of stability.

Battery has always been such a bastard for me that I have pretty much 
stopped using it altogether.

Aturia are not known for playing nice either.

The first thing I would do is take that stuff out and see how things 
behave.  I know that is not what you are hoping for but at least you 
will know who you should be yelling at.

Maybe.


>>
>>  How much RAM and is it good RAM? 
>>
>
>  2.25 g... Geil Apple Ram

Sounds like a decent amount of RAM I can't comment on quality, in fact 
I wish I knew of some independent study that could shed some light.

>>  Which audio interface, which drivers.  Some IOs are real bastards and
>>  their drivers just love to divert the vehicle to KP city.
>
>
>  I did discover that the M-Audio board was causing all kind of 
> distortion and in addition it was causing my computer to not wake from 
> sleep -rather it woke from sleep but the USB bus power was cut making 
> any action on kb or mouse inoperative. Removed the card, and problem 
> solved. I am using the Mac's core audio with a SPDIF cable in from an 
> external A/D and then a y Cable on the headphone jack to a mixer (a 
> bit crappy sounding but I can monitor higher quality with headphones 
> direct to computer)

The sad fact is that not only audio cards but the interaction between 
audio cards in video cards can also be an unknown quantity and even 
plugins can conflict with video cards I believe.

I would take out all plugins first.



>  Hey, I didn't say that!

Sorry about that.

On Apr 17, 2005, at 4:41 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> > If we keep buying into this nonsense, eventually we'll be purchasing
> > the right to write the program ourselves.
>
>  Maybe you should not buy into it anymore and move your operations to a
>  system based on the competing modern OS whose developers are using the
>  development strategy you describe.  BTW would you tell me which one
>  that is so I can too?
>
>
>  Hey, I didn't say that! Your quote implied it was me - which I don't 
> really care about - but that is what caused Orren Merton to call me a 
> "liar" on the LUG and of course he was not censored nor were his 
> messages rejected. However, I don't care.
>

Hey I apologized a bit ago thinking I had somehow done what you claim, 
I had after all I make my share of typos,  but I just looked over the 
thread and I am wondering where you are getting the idea that I 
attributed that statement to you.  I never did.  I replied to gswerner 
in a completely separate post and now I am seeing you putting the two 
separate posts  together and acting as if they were  both one thing 
directed at you.

What's is up with that?

Hi everyone,

After debating a while, I came by this Platinum 6 to Pro 6 upgrade at a 
reasonable price.
I immediately bought it since I do not have G5 MAC yet.
Anyways, I sent in the serial to get the permanent codes and I did.
I had the Pro 6 Demo expired before entering the permanent codes.
BTW, I only got 1 permanent code from Apple and I entered it.
I was expecting authorization codes for the instruments as well but did 
not get any.
After entering the code, XSKey would take the code.
Then, I noticed that the list said...

Gold/Platinum -> Pro Upgrade	Product authorized

However, Logic Pro 6 still said Demo expired.
And of course, all the instrument that I did not own (except Es1 and 
EXS 24 which I had owned) are showing either Demo or Demo expired mode.

How can I fix this?
I have already sent an email to support@... and 
register@....
However, they are taking forever to get back to me if they ever will.
May be you guys can help.

Thanks...
Yavuz AKYAZICI
http://yavuzakyazici.com
yavuzakyazici@...

Have you had/heard of a similar problem?

On Apr 19, 2005, at 12:36 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> I think there is a sales line at apple you can try.
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> 	• 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Logic_Cafe/
>  
> 	• 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Logic_Cafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> 	• 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>
Yavuz AKYAZICI
http://yavuzakyazici.com
yavuzakyazici@...m

I JUST CALLED THAT NUMBER 800 275 2273.
Apple says that they can not help me with 6 since  Emagic still is 
responsible for supporting 6.x.
Emagic says I need to contact Apple.
This is getting really frustrating....

On Apr 19, 2005, at 12:36 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> I think there is a sales line at apple you can try.
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> 	• 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Logic_Cafe/
>  
> 	• 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Logic_Cafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> 	• 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>
Yavuz AKYAZICI
http://yavuzakyazici.com
yavuzakyazici@...

I thought they closed the Grass Valley, California Emagic Office. I think you 
aught to just jump in with 7. You have an interim system that came out just 
around the time Apple bought Emagic so you have fallen into "catch 22" 
situation.

On Apr 19, 2005, at 8:22 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> I thought they closed the Grass Valley, California Emagic Office. I 
> think you
> aught to just jump in with 7. You have an interim system that came out 
> just
> around the time Apple bought Emagic so you have fallen into "catch 22"
> situation.

I know but I think it should not have happened that way.
If you close that office you should take care of thousands of version 6 
users.
It was really frustrating...

In these talks with Apple on the phone,
The tech said a few things that really worried me.
First he said that the support for 6 was supposed to given by Emagic.
It was their deal with Emagic and they were not equipped to handle my 
question.
I told them it was their product since they bought it prior to version 
6.
To be fair, they did take care of it in less than an hour
but never accepted that they were responsible to
get Emagic to give me support since they owned them.

Second thing the tech told me on the phone was...
"I actually meant to say there is no more support for 6."
This worries me a lot.
So, if I need to swap my XS-Key for some reason am I really out in the 
dark?
Some people had similar problems to mine and
XS-Key had to be swapped.

I do not want to spend money on a G5 machine.
I have a Ti-Book 1Ghz and a Mac Mini 1.42ghz (Both G4s).
They both work great with Logic Pro 6.4.3.
I could not care less if Apple wants to force me into buying their 
newer machines.
I am not buying Logic 7 for at least a few years.

I paid 3K for my TiBook and close $900.- for MacMini including 1Gb of 
Ram.
When TiBook 1Ghz came out 2.5 years ago it was supposed to be the 
greatest laptop.
Apple ads said so.
Now they do not even want to hear about it, let alone optimizing their 
software for it.
This is bad business.
It sure made me consider lots of things...

Just needed to vent after being played like a tennis ball between 
Emagic and Apple.
Both saying to talk to the other party.


Yavuz AKYAZICI
http://yavuzakyazici.com
yavuzakyazici@...