Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

Greetings to all. Bobbo here, new member of this group, user of Pro 
Tools, non-user and recent seller of Digital Performer, lover of the 
old MOTU Freestyle, and currently experimenting with the downloadable 
demo of Logic Express from Apple. My results so far are bewildering.

I'm running the demo on an iMac G5/20", OSX3.8, and a gig of RAM. 
When I began, I found the layout logical (ouch) and well-designed, 
except for the exceedingly small type, but OK. Bifocals on, safety 
belt tightened, and off we go.

I bought one of the books (Ignite) and settled in with my 49e 
keyboard, which works fine in Garage Band. First time, all seemed 
well in terms of input on the bottom panel. Good velocity, input 
acknowledged, but couldn't hear a thing or get the built in VIs or GB 
instruments to respond. They did play when I used the caps lock 
keyboard, but not the external. Checked the Audio Midi setup and all 
seemed OK.

Yesterday and today, a new wrinkle. Input so much as a note from the 
new keyboard and it locks the Mac up tight. I have cursor movement 
but that is all. No clicks. No force quit, command-tab or anything 
else but hold down the power button and then restart after hard 
shutdown.

Now, is that logical?

Any advice? Permissions have been duly repaired, Garage Band 
rechecked to make sure the keyboard didn't go full moon on me. I am 
forewarned that Logic is, uh, illogical or counter-intuitive in its 
setup, but so far, at least on paper, it seems pretty 
straightforward. This behavior, however, would give Spock a hematoma.

Thanks for any advice from you seasoned ole pros.  :-)

Best,
Bobbo

PS - Now, calling up the Caps Lock keyboard is enough to kill the 
system! What the hey????
-- 
Art, pet and human portraits: http://www.bobbogoldberg.com
Voice Over website: http://www.bob-vo.com
And don't forget: do good works for free at http://www.thehungersite.com

Hi Bobbo,

I'm afraid that I can't help you with your questions, but I thought I'd say
WELCOME to the group and also thought I'd share that I bought the Digital
Performer 4.52 cross-grade and gave it a serious try. I have to be honest,
of the four DAWs I've now tried, (Sonar, Logic, Cubase, and DP - actually I
tried Live too, but I don't even consider it a serious contender.) I found
DP to be the worst. I work mostly with MIDI and so it is MIDI functionality
that is most important to me. I found Cubase to be a very close second to
Logic and Sonar a clear step down from Logic or Cubase.

What prompted you to try Logic? Which by-the-way... I'm sure you'll be happy
with if you can get past your current problems.

Kamm

> -----Original Message-----
> Greetings to all. Bobbo here, new member of this group, user 
> of Pro Tools, non-user and recent seller of Digital 
> Performer, lover of the old MOTU Freestyle, and currently 
> experimenting with the downloadable demo of Logic Express 
> from Apple. My results so far are bewildering.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2005, at 08:07 PM, Kamm Schreiner wrote:

> Hi Bobbo,
>
> I'm afraid that I can't help you with your questions, but I thought 
> I'd say
> WELCOME to the group and also thought I'd share that I bought the 
> Digital
> Performer 4.52 cross-grade and gave it a serious try.

When you say you gave it a serious try, what did this entail?

> I have to be honest,
> of the four DAWs I've now tried, (Sonar, Logic, Cubase, and DP - 
> actually I
> tried Live too, but I don't even consider it a serious contender.) I 
> found
> DP to be the worst. I work mostly with MIDI and so it is MIDI 
> functionality
> that is most important to me. I found Cubase to be a very close second 
> to
> Logic and Sonar a clear step down from Logic or Cubase.
>
> What prompted you to try Logic? Which by-the-way... I'm sure you'll be 
> happy
> with if you can get past your current problems.
>
> Kamm
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Greetings to all. Bobbo here, new member of this group, user
>> of Pro Tools, non-user and recent seller of Digital
>> Performer, lover of the old MOTU Freestyle, and currently
>> experimenting with the downloadable demo of Logic Express
>> from Apple. My results so far are bewildering.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> When you say you gave it a serious try, what did this entail?

I did the same as I did with Logic and Cubase. I decided I was going to
rough it through the remaking of one of my old songs (written back in the
late 70's). What I found was that - to my amazement - DP does not have the
equivalent of Regions for MIDI - only for Audio. Both Sonar and Cubase do,
but all you get with DP is a computer generated (cannot be modified by the
user) grouping of midi notes that it "thinks" are related. It is only
available in the Tracks view and there is very little you can do with them.
For instance, I was using an external sound module and decided I wanted to
use EWQLSO instead. Creating the soft synth track was painless, (much easier
than Logic), but you can't copy the midi events from a midi track to a soft
synth track because DP will only allow you to copy events among identical
track types. So I was going to have to replay and re-edit the entire track?
I don't think so... ;) Oh yea, and the tracks view is *tiny* and I could
find no way to zoom the size of the a track vertically.

In addition, although DP has a rather complete set of midi editing features,
they are cumbersome compared to Logic. Example:

To change all selected note lengths to be equal in Logic, just hold down
Ctrl+Option while dragging. You have to open a dialog in DP and set the note
length and then click OK. Selecting midi notes is different too. In Logic,
if a rubberband selection touches a note it will be selected, in DP you must
encompass the entire note for it to be selected. Or wait, I think that it is
that you must select the "start" of the note. At any rate, it is pain.

DP has an info line in the titlebar of the midi editor window, but if you
drag a value up or down with the mouse to increase or decrease it, it gets
focus (becomes selected) and you must press enter or click on another
control to finish the action. If you select more than one note, the info
line disappears. If I could have edited the info line with multiple notes
selected (i.e. to change the length of all selected notes it would have been
very useful, but no.

Want to create legato with DP? It's a real pain. Just Shift+Tab in Logic.

I really hate DP's method of drawing/editing automation too. It is just
clunky compared to Logic. Which by-the-way is simply untouchable by any
other DAW I've used.

Finally, DP insists on defaulting to zoom sizes that are far too small for
my personal taste. If I change the settings in the arrange window for the
size of notes, the next time I open the song, they've reverted back to the
default size.

Anyway, you get the picture. The lack of the equivalent of a region for midi
events was a show stopper right away, but I still kept going trying to
convince myself there must be some other redeeming feature that would take
its place. There wasn't.

I wish that Logic had the equivalent of the consolidated window in DP, but
I'll put up with Logic's separate Windows any day to have its power and
flexibility.

I will say this though, DPs manual and index are light years better than
Logic's.

Have you tried DP? If so, what was your take on it compared to Logic?

Kamm

On Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 10:37 AM, Kamm Schreiner wrote:

>> When you say you gave it a serious try, what did this entail?
>
> I did the same as I did with Logic and Cubase. I decided I was going to
> rough it through the remaking of one of my old songs (written back in 
> the
> late 70's). What I found was that - to my amazement - DP does not have 
> the
> equivalent of Regions for MIDI - only for Audio. Both Sonar and Cubase 
> do,
> but all you get with DP is a computer generated (cannot be modified by 
> the
> user) grouping of midi notes that it "thinks" are related. It is only
> available in the Tracks view and there is very little you can do with 
> them.
>


> For instance, I was using an external sound module and decided I 
> wanted to
> use EWQLSO instead. Creating the soft synth track was painless, (much 
> easier
> than Logic), but you can't copy the midi events from a midi track to a 
> soft
> synth track because DP will only allow you to copy events among 
> identical
> track types.


This is not true- I do this all the time. It's extremely easy as a 
matter of fact, as easy as Logic (which I also use and love)


> So I was going to have to replay and re-edit the entire track?
> I don't think so... ;) Oh yea, and the tracks view is *tiny* and I 
> could
> find no way to zoom the size of the a track vertically.

This is also easy- did you read the manual?


>
> In addition, although DP has a rather complete set of midi editing 
> features,
> they are cumbersome compared to Logic. Example:
>
> To change all selected note lengths to be equal in Logic, just hold 
> down
> Ctrl+Option while dragging. You have to open a dialog in DP and set 
> the note
> length and then click OK.

There is an equivalent key command as well in DP.


> Selecting midi notes is different too. In Logic,
> if a rubberband selection touches a note it will be selected,

I found this method to be a pain too- notes that I don't want to select 
get selected- took me a while to get used to this...




> in DP you must
> encompass the entire note for it to be selected.



> Or wait, I think that it is
> that you must select the "start" of the note. At any rate, it is pain.
>
> DP has an info line in the titlebar of the midi editor window, but if 
> you
> drag a value up or down with the mouse to increase or decrease it, it 
> gets
> focus (becomes selected) and you must press enter or click on another
> control to finish the action. If you select more than one note, the 
> info
> line disappears. If I could have edited the info line with multiple 
> notes
> selected (i.e. to change the length of all selected notes it would 
> have been
> very useful, but no.
>
> Want to create legato with DP? It's a real pain. Just Shift+Tab in 
> Logic.

Logic is excellent for this.



>
> I really hate DP's method of drawing/editing automation too. It is just
> clunky compared to Logic. Which by-the-way is simply untouchable by any
> other DAW I've used.

I happen to think drawing automation is much more superior in DP, but 
that's me personally. The ability to make smooth, scalable  Bezier 
curves is incredible.


>
> Finally, DP insists on defaulting to zoom sizes that are far too small 
> for
> my personal taste. If I change the settings in the arrange window for 
> the
> size of notes, the next time I open the song, they've reverted back to 
> the
> default size.

You can use the Mac OS stationary feature or make a template to get 
around this.



>
> Anyway, you get the picture. The lack of the equivalent of a region 
> for midi
> events was a show stopper right away, but I still kept going trying to
> convince myself there must be some other redeeming feature that would 
> take
> its place. There wasn't.

i find NOT having regions to be a plus, I like using regions in Logic 
when I'm doing dance oriented stuff, but for genres that are looser, DP 
has this more open and free way of composing.



>
> I wish that Logic had the equivalent of the consolidated window in DP, 
> but
> I'll put up with Logic's separate Windows any day to have its power and
> flexibility.





>
> I will say this though, DPs manual and index are light years better 
> than
> Logic's.


I find both manuals are comprehensive enough for me, I wish DP had it 
in 'pdf' format too.


>
> Have you tried DP? If so, what was your take on it compared to Logic?

see above ; )

>
> Kamm
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for responding. I've got a few additional comments/questions below...
 
> > from a midi track to a soft synth track because DP will 
> only allow you 
> > to copy events among identical track types.
> 
> 
> This is not true- I do this all the time. It's extremely easy 
> as a matter of fact, as easy as Logic (which I also use and love)

All I can say is that it would not let me do it. I kept getting an error
message telling me that you can only copy data between like tracks. Don't
know why you can and I couldn't, but I have no reason to lie about it. It
simply would not let me. If you know a secret, let me in on it.


> > So I was going to have to replay and re-edit the entire track?
> > I don't think so... ;) Oh yea, and the tracks view is *tiny* and I 
> > could
> > find no way to zoom the size of the a track vertically.
> 
> This is also easy- did you read the manual?

Yes, certainly, and I spent a lot of time just looking at the screen and
dragging, etc. trying to find a way to do. I just pulled out the manual
again. I can only see a way to zoom horizontally. Not vertically. I spent a
lot of time looking because I just felt like I couldn't see anything with
the default setting. How do you zoom vertically in the Tracks window?


> > Ctrl+Option while dragging. You have to open a dialog in DP and set 
> > the note
> > length and then click OK.
> 
> There is an equivalent key command as well in DP.

My recollection is that the key command simply pops up a window and that you
then have to set the length and finally click OK. In fact, I think you even
have to check an appropriate check box to act on lengths too. That's hardly
what I consider equivalent. At least not from the point of view of getting
it done quickly. If I'm wrong, please correct me and let me know what the
key command is and the full procedure for changing lengths.


> > Selecting midi notes is different too. In Logic,
> > if a rubberband selection touches a note it will be selected,
> 
> I found this method to be a pain too- notes that I don't want 
> to select 
> get selected- took me a while to get used to this...

I'm sure this is one of those areas where each individual will probably have
their own preference.


> I happen to think drawing automation is much more superior in DP, but 
> that's me personally. The ability to make smooth, scalable  Bezier 
> curves is incredible.

I guess this is another personal preference thing. Although I certainly draw
curved automation from time to time, most of my automation is straight lines
and the ability to simply click on and drag an automation line and have both
end points move is just such an amazing time saver. In every other DAW, you
must first select the end points and then you can drag, but even then, I
think, you must drag one of the points not the line. In Logic, I don't even
need to see those end points. Modifying an existing curve in Logic is
similarly easy - at least for me. That's where Logic stands out for me. It
saves me buckets of time. :)


> reverted back to 
> > the
> > default size.
> 
> You can use the Mac OS stationary feature or make a template to get 
> around this.

Stationary??? Please tell me more! I don't even know what that is.


> i find NOT having regions to be a plus, I like using regions in Logic 
> when I'm doing dance oriented stuff, but for genres that are 
> looser, DP 
> has this more open and free way of composing.

I'm totally lost without Regions. And in Logic, you can even add automation
to the region. That is just so amazingly powerful. Another thing is that
when you edit a region, "Select All" is smart enough to know that what you
are selecting all of is what is in the current region. It also remembers
what's been selected even if you edit another region and go back to a
previously edited region. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in DP, select all
will select every note in the track without exception. Right?


> I find both manuals are comprehensive enough for me, I wish DP had it 
> in 'pdf' format too.

Although Logic's manual is comprehensive, it lacks sufficient examples and
pictures. Logic's index is literally one of the worst I've ever encountered.
(If you'll take a look at my website, you'll see that I know at least a
little about indexes <grin>). DP's on the other hand is pretty good. I
haven't used it enough to actually grade it, but it is without a doubt
better than Logic's which I give an absolutely failing grade to. Apple
certainly did not hire a professional indexer to write the index to Logic's
manual.

Another area where DP is clearly superior to Logic is in setting up external
sound modules or synths. It is almost automatic with DP and with Logic, it
is so difficult and time intensive that I STILL don't have my entire system
setup in Logic. It was setup in DP quickly and easily. DP uses Apples own
specification "Core MIDI" to get the job done. Why the heck doesn't Apple's
own product use their own specifications? This is the one REALLY HUGE thorn
in my ass about Logic. Other than that, the other problems are just little
annoyances. Sorry to be so bitchy about it, but it really does irritate me.
<grin>

Anyway, I do think that DP is a polished product, it simply does not have a
workflow that stresses efficiency the way that Logic's does. At least not
for me. I find Cubase and Sonar both to be more productive in that respect.

Kamm

On Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 03:08 PM, Kamm Schreiner wrote:

>> You can use the Mac OS stationary feature or make a template to get
>> around this.
>
> Stationary??? Please tell me more! I don't even know what that is.
>
>

Do a 'Get Info' on any Mac file, including Logic or DP sessions. You 
see a nice little checkbox called 'Stationary Pad'

from Mac help:

You can make a file work like "stationery." When you open a stationery 
file, an untitled copy of the original is opened.

Hi Eddie and Gregory,

Between both of your replies, I fully understand the concept and can see
several things this will be very useful for. Many thanks for that. However,
I can't for the life of my see how this would be applied toward DP so that
my zoom settings are recalled. They aren't stored anywhere so how can I
possibly make a template (stationary) of it?

Kamm