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Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-05 by Tim McLane

Hey guys--- as former creative director of a large very active music publishing company and former agent of some of the top writers in the world, I would love to give you guys a few tips.  If I had know this stuff when I was younger, I would have retired years ago.  As it was, I learned them late in life.

1-Unless there are extraordinary circumstances, I would avoid becoming represented (signed) by almost any music publishing companies.  Very few of them actually provide the services which they should, ie, placing songs with other artists and collecting the money which is owed and registering songs with the US Copyright office (The fee is now $40).  If you do a little study or get the right partner, you can do this without them.  Hang out with successful writers and see how they do things.  Another problem with major publishers is that they are soooooo busy that unless there are over several thousands owing in other countries, they simply don't collect.  Jerks.  The worst part is that you will never know anything about it unless you are making some effort to find out if your tunes are in another country.

2-In order to do this you need to be a member of ASCAP/BMI or SESAC. To become an ASCAP writer member, you must have written or co-written a musical composition or a song that has been either commercially recorded (CD, record, tape, etc.); or, performed publicly in any venue licensable by ASCAP (club, live concert, symphonic concert or recital venue, college or university, etc.); or, performed in any audio visual or electronic medium (film, television, radio, Internet, cable, pay-per-view, etc.);or, published and available for sale or rental---in other words, your song must be generating income.  If your songs are about to be released, join anyway and explain this in the application.  They will sign you right up.

BMI and Ascap dont' have anything to do with collecting royalties from CD or other sales. Their major purpose is to collect and pay you "performance" royalties, ie, the money that the radio stations OWE YOU for using (playing) your songs. You cannot be member of both-- you have to choose one. If you have airplay, you let them know (register your songs with them) and they then begin to pay your publishing company.  You can either have a writer/publishing company or one with an original name.  Simply call the "index department" and they will clear the name that you propose. On their websites (ascap.com or bmi.com) under "membership" you can fill out applications online.  

This is extremely important because many artists don't even collect their money because most of them are under the impression that royalties come from record companies.  They do--- but the income from BMI/ASCAP can be double or triple. Your song might never sell a single copy but if it gets airplay-- even by accident (which I have seen many times) it could be generating thousands of dollars. Check this out:  if you don't collect your money within a certain period of time, it reverts back and it is basically lost forever.   So, register your tunes.

If you have any questions, let me know.


t
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Coccia 
  To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] off topic : setting up a myspace music site


  GAmoore@... wrote:
  > I setup a Broadjam account and listed your name as the reference, Andy. By 
  > the way, is it time to join BMI or ASCAP if you are going to start selling 
  > stuff?
  > 

  Unless youve got a head for the business side of it.. BMI/ASCAP can be a 
  pain.. To start you have to be publishing your work to even submit it 
  there. Meaning you either have to be dealing with a publishing company 
  or you need to go setup a new bank account as a business and become a 
  publisher (or a DBA kinda thing as well).. I never could get anyone at 
  ASCAP to tell me how to properly go about this (even though they claim 
  to have tons of advisors and help for their 'artists') and gave up.

  The best, and first, thing you want to do now is simply to get your work 
  copywritten with the Government's copyright office. Just download a 
  simple PDF, send em a copy of your entire album (that saves you from 
  paying $30 for EACH song, just register it as an entire work and theyre 
  all covered), and a $30 fee (might have gone up last time I put anything 
  out was 3 years ago).. Then its on record and you officially own the 
  recordings to do whatever you wish. You can worry about the BMI/ASCAP 
  side of publishing once you start recieving airplay and people wanting 
  to perform your material as this is really all that those companies do 
  is monitor the numbers on that stuff..

  I dont believe they account for anything like album sales which is 
  probably what most of us 'non-major' folks will be doing with our wares 
  around at shows and such..

  -- 
  Chris

  http://www.monotrematamusic.com
  http://www.myspace.com/monotremata
  http://www.descentrecords.com


   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-05 by GAmoore@aol.com

> Unless there are extraordinary circumstances, I would avoid becoming 
> represented (signed) by almost any music publishing companies. .... If you do a 
> little study or get the right partner, you can do this without them. Hang out 
> with successful writers and see how they do things.
> 

Thanks for great tips, Tim! And for becoming a member of ASCAP if you have a 
"commericially recorded CD", does that mean you can make your own CD, and have 
1000 copies created using one of those services, then put it up for sale on 
CDBaby? 

Actually this discussion has motivated me to do a little research on what it 
takes to call yourself a "publishing company". In John Braheny's book "The 
Craft and Business of Songwriting" (3rd ed) he tells how to start your own 
publishing company (p.218). Basically you need to create a unique company name which 
is sufficient different from your name or any other company name, then you 
register a "DBA". (I can tell you from my own experience, that as soon as I did 
that before, I got a letter from my local city government demanding $100/year 
for a city business license - with some extremely high fines if I didn't 
comply quite quickly.) You can operate the business in various ways.

It seems like this is a good business opportunity for someone - to create a 
cyber publishing company and just charge a minimum fee to "little" songwriters 
like us - kinda like "help you sell" undercuts the real Real Estate agents. 
Maybe such a thing already exists?

Greg



Greg


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-05 by Chris Coccia

GAmoore@... wrote:

> Thanks for great tips, Tim! And for becoming a member of ASCAP if you have a 
> "commericially recorded CD", does that mean you can make your own CD, and have 
> 1000 copies created using one of those services, then put it up for sale on 
> CDBaby? 
> 

You dont even have to go this far really. You can simply be making 
CD-R's and selling them from a website to join. Just make sure you got 
the copyright part done and youre good to go!

> Actually this discussion has motivated me to do a little research on what it 
> takes to call yourself a "publishing company". In John Braheny's book "The 
> Craft and Business of Songwriting" (3rd ed) he tells how to start your own 
> publishing company (p.218). Basically you need to create a unique company name which 
> is sufficient different from your name or any other company name, then you 
> register a "DBA". (I can tell you from my own experience, that as soon as I did 
> that before, I got a letter from my local city government demanding $100/year 
> for a city business license - with some extremely high fines if I didn't 
> comply quite quickly.) You can operate the business in various ways.
> 

Thank you for this info Greg.. This is actually exactly what I was 
looking for during the last round of replies and everyone completely 
missed the mark and went elsewhere with responses! I knew it wasnt as 
simple as calling yourself a publisher and printing up letterheads..
When income taxes are gonna be involved, the government doesnt make 
anything that simple hehehe!

-- 
Chris

http://www.monotrematamusic.com
http://www.myspace.com/monotremata
http://www.descentrecords.com

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-05 by GAmoore@aol.com

> I knew it wasnt as
> simple as calling yourself a publisher and printing up letterheads.
> When income taxes are gonna be involved, the government doesnt make
> anything that simple hehehe!
> 
I started a little software company so I did the dba by contacting a local 
paper and paying about $70 or whatever the fee for them to run the ad, and they 
handled the county filing too. I did it twice actually because I changed the 
name of the business, and the first time I used another city address where I 
had a PO box, but when I used my own city, they found the ad and started 
demanding the business licenses fees as I mentioned before.

As for taxes, I am no expert, but it seems like if you do a "sole proprietor" 
you don't have to pay any taxes if you don't make any money, but of course 
you do pay taxes if you make money. I had to get a tax id number for the company 
which is like (but different from) a personal SSN. There is another option to 
a Limited Liability Corporation which has the advantage no one can sue you 
personally but there is a filing fee and a minimum of annual tax of $600-$800 
even if you don't make a penny.

This is why I was hoping that someone has created a publishing company which 
just acts like a shell and takes a little commission but not 1/2 of 
everything.



**************************************
 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-05 by Tim McLane

d(see comments)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: GAmoore@... 
  To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz


  > Unless there are extraordinary circumstances, I would avoid becoming 
  > represented (signed) by almost any music publishing companies. .... If you do a 
  > little study or get the right partner, you can do this without them. Hang out 
  > with successful writers and see how they do things.
  > 

  Thanks for great tips, Tim! And for becoming a member of ASCAP if you have a 
  "commericially recorded CD", does that mean you can make your own CD, and have 
  1000 copies created using one of those services, then put it up for sale on 
  CDBaby? Technically, yes, that constitutes having one of your songs "published".   I dont' know how much money could be generated that way, but it does fulfill ASCAP or BMI's requirements.

  Actually this discussion has motivated me to do a little research on what it 
  takes to call yourself a "publishing company". In John Braheny's book "The 
  Craft and Business of Songwriting" (3rd ed) he tells how to start your own 
  publishing company (p.218). Basically you need to create a unique company name which 
  is sufficient different from your name or any other company name, then you 
  register a "DBA". (I can tell you from my own experience, that as soon as I did 
  that before, I got a letter from my local city government demanding $100/year 
  for a city business license - with some extremely high fines if I didn't 
  comply quite quickly.) You can operate the business in various ways.That is true.  What I was saying is the ASCAP or BMI will pay you anyway, even if your publishing company is not a legal entity (ie a DBA, a corporation, or whatever); all that they care about is that this "person" (business) is registered with them.  

  It seems like this is a good business opportunity for someone - to create a 
  cyber publishing company and just charge a minimum fee to "little" songwriters 
  like us - kinda like "help you sell" undercuts the real Real Estate agents. 
  Maybe such a thing already exists? That is how the music publising business got started way back in the day: one guy would write the songs and the other would take care of the business: do a lead sheet, get it copywrited, get the tune placed with an artist and then do the collections.  Great companies were started this way and there are some famous stories.  But, unfortunately, it is very hard to get publishing companies to do their jobs and the ignorance, ie, lack of education both spiritual and material, on the part of the writers hasn't helped, either.  The big companies flash huge somes of money to writers --- because the writers don't know what big sums they are generating.  Therefore the pubco many times will end up making much more than the writer--- AND they can get out of audits and reporting if the writer doesn't watch them carefully.

  But there are good stories, too, of writers who have been trained and who know what to do.  I would recommend "how to Be a music Publisher" by Walter E. Hurst, available from 7 Arts Press in Hollywood.  They have a number of other books, too, which all new writers should study.  In addition, most good universities have courses on Music publishing.  UCLA has some courses (I used to give lectures there) but Bonnie Greenberg teaches the best courses and has some papers and books out that I would recommend as well.  

  As a new writer, I would get my hands on as many of these books as possible, read them all, take notes on them and then I would get an internship in a music publishing company or in the royalties division of a record company or in the A&R department of a record company --- so you can see what actually goes on.  



  Good luck.

  t


  Greg

  Greg

  **************************************
  See what's free at 
  http://www.aol.com.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-05 by Tim McLane

(comments below)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: GAmoore@... 
  To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz


  > I knew it wasnt as
  > simple as calling yourself a publisher and printing up letterheads.
  > When income taxes are gonna be involved, the government doesnt make
  > anything that simple hehehe!
  > 
  I started a little software company so I did the dba by contacting a local 
  paper and paying about $70 or whatever the fee for them to run the ad, and they 
  handled the county filing too. I did it twice actually because I changed the 
  name of the business, and the first time I used another city address where I 
  had a PO box, but when I used my own city, they found the ad and started 
  demanding the business licenses fees as I mentioned before.

  As for taxes, I am no expert, but it seems like if you do a "sole proprietor" 
  you don't have to pay any taxes if you don't make any money, but of course 
  you do pay taxes if you make money. I had to get a tax id number for the company 
  which is like (but different from) a personal SSN. There is another option to 
  a Limited Liability Corporation which has the advantage no one can sue you 
  personally but there is a filing fee and a minimum of annual tax of $600-$800 
  even if you don't make a penny. It sounds like you live in LA-- it's not that bad everywhere.  

  This is why I was hoping that someone has created a publishing company which 
  just acts like a shell and takes a little commission but not 1/2 of 
  everything. If you can find it, I'm still not sure it would be a good idea.  But just remember: this is your business and there are plenty of people who are making money in this business, many of them are writer/publisher individuals.  It's a pain but life is a trade off: take this pain or the pain or working at Walmart while you watch them sell your product.  

  Another thing to remember: one of the most important thing you can do is to get to know yourself and be mature about what you see.  Are you a business person?  If not, get a partner.  I know many wives who have saved the company.  The other thing to consider is that, as hard as it seems to get started in this business, if you have nice sounds, there will be somebody out there looking for your product.  You need to find them and then figure out if they are going to be a trustworthy partner or not.

  Good luck.


  t


  **************************************
  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-06 by Kent Sandvik

The only benefit I see of starting your own private publishing company
is to make it an incorporation in order to avoid personal liability.
I'm  not sure how often someone is sued for publishing rights, but for
small releases I think something like this is a very minimal risk.

So just register at ASCAP or BMI as a private person with no
publishing company, I don't know ASCAP but with BMI it's just fine.

If you want to release records as a label, yes then it's good to start
a small business, this for the tax ID, getting the ISRC codes, bank
account numbers and all the other things needed when running a label.
Many online distributors also only deal with labels, not unsigned
artists, unless you use TuneCore/CD-Baby and so on.

Also, the more you dive into business work, the less time you have for
music, so that's an issue also to take into account. Actually, I would
recommend learning as much as possible about marketing and basic
business practices for any musician, as it opens up the eyes about how
the music world really operates -- it puts things into right
perspective.

--Kent

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-06 by GAmoore@aol.com

In a message dated 4/5/07 5:23:37 PM, sandvik@... writes:
> The only benefit I see of starting your own private publishing company
> is to make it an incorporation in order to avoid personal liability.
> I'm not sure how often someone is sued for publishing rights, but for
> small releases I think something like this is a very minimal risk.
> 
> So just register at ASCAP or BMI as a private person with no
> publishing company, I don't know ASCAP but with BMI it's just fine.
> 

I think you are mixing up two different things. One thing is that you need to 
have a business license to have a publishing company (according to Braheny's 
book), in order to collect the publishing part of the royalties. Another thing 
is what kind of company - sole proprietorship, partnership, or LLC (limited 
liability corporation). Thats the part about them being able to sue you or not. 
Yes, I agree its fairly far fetched that someone would sue (although I think 
there were some lawsuit's over Ozzy's "Suicide Solution" song, after a kid 
committed suicide after listening to it repeatedly.)

Can you get some confirmation about BMI not requiring a DBA ("doing business 
as") company and still giving you 200% of the writer's commissions (100% for 
writer and 100% for publishing company)? I am writing to them now to see if 
they can explain.

By the way, there are a lot of good copyright tips from BMI on this page (but 
they don't answer this question about the publishing company).
http://www.bmi.com/career/entry/533748


**************************************
 
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-07 by Tim McLane

Actually, the benefits can vary greatly depending on the type of person that you are.   What is usually done by publishing companies is that they, legally, become the owner of the songs.  The only right remaining yours is the right to get paid and the right to have your name listed as the writer.  Other than that, the pubco is, in legal fact, the owner of all the rights.  

How on earth do they get writers to go for this?  Easy: the writers have no idea how much their songs are generating and how much the writer might be generating that he is never and will never see and so the publishing company offers the writer cash.  Of course the writer is shocked and pleased, so he goes for the deal, not knowing or imagining that he is ---(check it out) AT THE VERY LEAST  earning twice the amount he is getting.  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kent Sandvik 
  To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 5:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz


  The only benefit I see of starting your own private publishing company
  is to make it an incorporation in order to avoid personal liability.
  I'm not sure how often someone is sued for publishing rights, but for
  small releases I think something like this is a very minimal risk.

  So just register at ASCAP or BMI as a private person with no
  publishing company, I don't know ASCAP but with BMI it's just fine.

  If you want to release records as a label, yes then it's good to start
  a small business, this for the tax ID, getting the ISRC codes, bank
  account numbers and all the other things needed when running a label.
  Many online distributors also only deal with labels, not unsigned
  artists, unless you use TuneCore/CD-Baby and so on.

  Also, the more you dive into business work, the less time you have for
  music, so that's an issue also to take into account. Actually, I would
  recommend learning as much as possible about marketing and basic
  business practices for any musician, as it opens up the eyes about how
  the music world really operates -- it puts things into right
  perspective.

  --Kent


   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz

2007-04-07 by Tim McLane

d (see comments below)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: GAmoore@... 
  To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] music publishing biz


  In a message dated 4/5/07 5:23:37 PM, sandvik@... writes:
  > The only benefit I see of starting your own private publishing company
  > is to make it an incorporation in order to avoid personal liability.
  > I'm not sure how often someone is sued for publishing rights, but for
  > small releases I think something like this is a very minimal risk.
  > 
  > So just register at ASCAP or BMI as a private person with no
  > publishing company, I don't know ASCAP but with BMI it's just fine.
  > 

  I think you are mixing up two different things. One thing is that you need to 
  have a business license to have a publishing company (according to Braheny's 
  book), in order to collect the publishing part of the royalties. I agree that one should always comply with the law but it is not my experience that either BMI or ASCAP will demand to see that your company has a legal existance.  It was the bank's that said we had to have a DBA (the business license which you get from the county) for them to cash our checks---on the DBA you state what kind of company it is--sole proprietorship, etc..  Another thing 
  is what kind of company - sole proprietorship, partnership, or LLC (limited 
  liability corporation). Thats the part about them being able to sue you or not. 
  Yes, I agree its fairly far fetched that someone would sue (although I think 
  there were some lawsuit's over Ozzy's "Suicide Solution" song, after a kid 
  committed suicide after listening to it repeatedly.) Unfortunately from hell, it is NOT far-fetched that someone would sue.  I am so sad to say that if you are making money -- or even if you are not but have assets oR THINK YOU HAVE ASSETS, someone will sue.  If you are making money, you NEED to have a corporation-- in this sue-happy world, you need protection.

  Can you get some confirmation about BMI not requiring a DBA ("doing business 
  as") company and still giving you 200% of the writer's commissions (100% for 
  writer and 100% for publishing company)?No, I can't but you will need it anyway to cash checks in California.  I can't imagine that either BMI or ASCAP would get into this because they send out checks all over the world.    I am writing to them now to see if 
  they can explain.

  By the way, there are a lot of good copyright tips from BMI on this page (but 
  they don't answer this question about the publishing company).
  http://www.bmi.com/career/entry/533748

  **************************************

  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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