Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

Hey,

    For those of us who have both Pro Tools (the undisputed "industry standard" ... am I the 
only one that has blood pressure problems when people say that??)

    Anyway, the question is:   What do you use Pro Tools for, and what do you use Logic 
for?

     My answer:  I use Logic to mix, because of the DSP, Multiband Compression, 
Compression, Space Designer, Linear Phase EQ, decent auto-tune (automating the speed 
helps dial in a vocal line), the EVB3, EXS24, all the instruments!! ... a TON of plugins at my 
disposal, right out of the box.  Can't beat it for the $500 academic price.

    Pro Tools:   I like the DeEsser a lot better, I like the overall editing power (cut, cut 
grouped tracks).   The TCE (time compression expansion) trimmer is awesome for making 
vocal parts all line up TIGHT.  The shape options for the automation are cool, because you 
can use the square wave looking thing, in grid mode, to do rhythmic effects.   Beat 
Detective is awesome too.  I hate to say it, but I think that audio recorded into Pro Tools 
might sound a little better than when I record to Logic, but I'm curious if anybody else has 
this suspicion/opinion.

    So, at this point I am tending to track and edit audio in Pro Tools, then Consolidate 
tracks and pull those files into Logic for mixing.

    Curious what others say!

      Pete

> I hate to say it, but I think that audio recorded into Pro Tools
> might sound a little better than when I record to Logic, but I'm curious if 
> anybody else has
> this suspicion/opinion.
> 

Actually people have been saying this for years. There have been various 
debates on the LUG even 6-7 years ago. Some people say Nuendo sounds better too. 
Maybe there is some difference in the way audio is converted or blended on 
these systems. But then there will be some blind test, and there's really no 
difference. So its hard to say. I also liked the fact you could have different 
takes on the same track in protools, and it just seemed easier to deal with audio, 
but it totally sucked for midi, and there were only two screensets, and   you 
couldn't use VST plugs at the time. So I gave it up, and just stick to Logic. 
I find it less headache to know one program well. I also have Live and 
Melodyne, but I just use them on the side at times for audio editing.

If you want to talk about headaches.. how about dealing with Waves plugs. I 
just don't know what is with that company.




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On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:49 AM, GAmoore@... wrote:

>
>> I hate to say it, but I think that audio recorded into Pro Tools
>> might sound a little better than when I record to Logic, but I'm  
>> curious if
>> anybody else has
>> this suspicion/opinion.
>>
>
> Actually people have been saying this for years. There have been  
> various
> debates on the LUG even 6-7 years ago.

I am guilty of this myself :-) , see my numerous posts on the subject  
on L-TDM list. That was until I tried non-Digi hardware with Logic,  
which have changed my opinion. Pro Tools sounds much better than  
Logic if both are used with Digi hardware, simply because Digi  
CoreAudio driver completely screws up the sound (some people talk of  
consperacy on Digi's part, but I don't think Digi made it next to  
unusable deliberately so people stick with Pro Tools. Logic sounds  
comparable to Pro Tools on RME, MIO or Apogee, I personally had to  
choose between the two and ended up selling my Digi hardware. Just my  
$0.02.

Best,

Andy

I have seen this thread come up so many times over the years. I  
remember in the PC days, when it was Logic vs. Sonar, and Logic vs.  
Cubase. Usually Logic was the one to beat, in those discussions.

When I converted over to Samplitude after the Apple debacle, I  
started to harbor little fears that the audio I was recording wasn't  
as good as what I was getting with Logic...using all the same high- 
quality mics, pres, hardware, etc. Then I came to realize that the  
main thing that had changed was my *workflow*. I was more comfortable  
with Logic, and I felt stilted in Samp. That affected my  
performances, and my mixes, and the whole process, really.

I think that's the difference people are hearing -- if indeed there  
is a difference to be heard.  I've heard stunning stuff out of almost  
every major platform...and crap out of every major platform, as well.

For myself -- I'm 100% sure I can make a better-sounding mix in Logic  
than in Pro Tools? How do I know that? Because I don't know squat  
about ProTools! :)

Skip


On Jul 24, 2007, at 2:49 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

>
> > I hate to say it, but I think that audio recorded into Pro Tools
> > might sound a little better than when I record to Logic, but I'm  
> curious if
> > anybody else has
> > this suspicion/opinion.
> >
>
> Actually people have been saying this for years. There have been  
> various
> debates on the LUG even 6-7 years ago. Some people say Nuendo  
> sounds better too.
> Maybe there is some difference in the way audio is converted or  
> blended on
> these systems. But then there will be some blind test, and there's  
> really no
> difference. So its hard to say. I also liked the fact you could  
> have different
> takes on the same track in protools, and it just seemed easier to  
> deal with audio,
> but it totally sucked for midi, and there were only two screensets,  
> and you
> couldn't use VST plugs at the time. So I gave it up, and just stick  
> to Logic.
> I find it less headache to know one program well. I also have Live and
> Melodyne, but I just use them on the side at times for audio editing.
>
> If you want to talk about headaches.. how about dealing with Waves  
> plugs. I
> just don't know what is with that company.
>
> **************************************
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

seems easy enough to check. set up a keyboard sequencer to play the 
same thing through the same preamps and converters then record in PT 
and Logic. Bounce down. then take the audio recorded in each one, and 
move it to the opposite program and bounce down. then put all four 
audio files in our file area - and we have a poll to see how many 
people think each one sounds the best. I guess it would need to be a 
carefully chosen patch - maybe an acoustic guitar where you can hear 
the attack and sustain of the notes.

-----Original Message-----
From: F Stuart Leeds <skip@...>
To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:18 pm
Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] Pro Tools for this, Logic for that??























             I have seen this thread come up so many times over the 
years. I

remember in the PC days, when it was Logic vs. Sonar, and Logic vs.

Cubase. Usually Logic was the one to beat, in those discussions.



When I converted over to Samplitude after the Apple debacle, I

started to harbor little fears that the audio I was recording wasn't

as good as what I was getting with Logic...using all the same high-

quality mics, pres, hardware, etc. Then I came to realize that the

main thing that had changed was my *workflow*. I was more comfortable

with Logic, and I felt stilted in Samp. That affected my

performances, and my mixes, and the whole process, really.



I think that's the difference people are hearing -- if indeed there

is a difference to be heard.  I've heard stunning stuff out of almost

every major platform...and crap out of every major platform, as well.



For myself -- I'm 100% sure I can make a better-sounding mix in Logic

than in Pro Tools? How do I know that? Because I don't know squat

about ProTools! :)



Skip



On Jul 24, 2007, at 2:49 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:



>

> > I hate to say it, but I think that audio recorded into Pro Tools

> > might sound a little better than when I record to Logic, but I'm

> curious if

> > anybody else has

> > this suspicion/opinion.

> >

>

> Actually people have been saying this for years. There have been

> various

> debates on the LUG even 6-7 years ago. Some people say Nuendo

> sounds better too.

> Maybe there is some difference in the way audio is converted or

> blended on

> these systems. But then there will be some blind test, and there's

> really no

> difference. So its hard to say. I also liked the fact you could

> have different

> takes on the same track in protools, and it just seemed easier to

> deal with audio,

> but it totally sucked for midi, and there were only two screensets,

> and you

> couldn't use VST plugs at the time. So I gave it up, and just stick

> to Logic.

> I find it less headache to know one program well. I also have Live and

> Melodyne, but I just use them on the side at times for audio editing.

>

> If you want to talk about headaches.. how about dealing with Waves

> plugs. I

> just don't know what is with that company.

>

> **************************************

> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







    














________________________________________________________________________
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from AOL at AOL.com.

So as I continue my migration to Apple (my Logic 7.2 arrives  
tomorrow), and I'm getting all my AUs and standalones and sound libs  
installed...I'm speculating about what other tools I'm going to need  
to replicate my PC setup.

For wave editing, I was a longtime Sound Forge user -- what is the  
best equivalent on Apple? Bias Peak? Something else?

For loop stuff, I'm continuing on with Stylus RMX (amazing product),  
but I also used Acid 6.0, especially for soundtrack work. Does Logic  
have enough loop functionality to cover what Acid does?

Which brings me to the biggest question -- for those of you using  
Intel Macs, what think you of using BootCamp to keep Windows music  
software around?  If BootCamp really works on a practical level, I  
wouldn't have to give up ACID or Sound Forge or the rest.

Thanks for your help -- I realize this is slightly OT. But I wouldn't  
even be asking these questions if I weren't determined to get back to  
being a Logic user.

Skip

DSP-Quattro is awesome for the mone and Peak are the big ones I hear [I
use DSP-Quattro] or if on an intel mac with a couple cores use Parallels
and sound forge...  hehe.. I sill love Sound Forge

 

Paul

From: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of F Stuart Leeds
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:37 PM
To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Logic_Cafe] Apple Tool equivalents

 

So as I continue my migration to Apple (my Logic 7.2 arrives 
tomorrow), and I'm getting all my AUs and standalones and sound libs 
installed...I'm speculating about what other tools I'm going to need 
to replicate my PC setup.

For wave editing, I was a longtime Sound Forge user -- what is the 
best equivalent on Apple? Bias Peak? Something else?

For loop stuff, I'm continuing on with Stylus RMX (amazing product), 
but I also used Acid 6.0, especially for soundtrack work. Does Logic 
have enough loop functionality to cover what Acid does?

Which brings me to the biggest question -- for those of you using 
Intel Macs, what think you of using BootCamp to keep Windows music 
software around? If BootCamp really works on a practical level, I 
wouldn't have to give up ACID or Sound Forge or the rest.

Thanks for your help -- I realize this is slightly OT. But I wouldn't 
even be asking these questions if I weren't determined to get back to 
being a Logic user.

Skip

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>>
>>
>> Actually people have been saying this for years. There have been
>> various
>> debates on the LUG even 6-7 years ago.
>
> I am guilty of this myself :-) , see my numerous posts on the subject
> on L-TDM list. That was until I tried non-Digi hardware with Logic,
> which have changed my opinion. Pro Tools sounds much better than
> Logic if both are used with Digi hardware, simply because Digi
> CoreAudio driver completely screws up the sound (some people talk of
> consperacy on Digi's part, but I don't think Digi made it next to
> unusable deliberately so people stick with Pro Tools. Logic sounds
> comparable to Pro Tools on RME, MIO or Apogee, I personally had to
> choose between the two and ended up selling my Digi hardware. Just my
> $0.02.
>
> Best,
>
> Andy
>

Lets add another $0.02 to the pot.
I cannot wait till I can get me some apogee's or keep jamming on my  
FF800.
Digi and Logic since I can remember (Logic Audio 3.5?) have never  
played nice.
For me I tend to get a more "precise" mix and sound in PT, but I get  
a more 'musical' mix in Logic.
The way PT handles audio is really good, but the way Logic handles  
MIDI/Music Meter is way better than PT.
Logic comes with its own set of synths, so for sounddesign, be it to  
picture or just for music, Logic is the one,
but when it comes to syncing dialog, time accel/expansion regions  
(and not whole files and root files), heavy plugin automation, and  
multiple takes (playlists) PT is the one for me.
Next:
Latency, TDM systems are still the shizzle when it comes to this. I  
cannot record a whole band in Logic, unless I use a hardware mixer,  
or a software mixer to do a direct path back to headphones. This is  
something that still infuriates me about Logic/Native rigs, how hard  
can it be to figure out these latency issues...... it is after all  
2007......
I've given up using Logic with a TDM rig, never stable enough for day  
to day operations, and having to handle .L and .R tracks like old PT  
ways is inefficient on the Monitor real estate.
Now,
On a well oiled Logic rig with RME or Apogee, many fun hours can be  
had. Logic in a way seems to be a more creative palette than PT. IMHO  
PT can sterilize performances a bit, which is not a bad thing mind  
you, but sometimes being able to click on a plugin instrument, and  
hitting record, have Logics template spit out click the way you want  
it, have windows configured where you want them, and being able to  
control all this as you're about to compose your next Ultra-Mega- 
Smash-Symphonic-Metal-Rock-Disco-House-Trance-Motown-Latin  
Extravaganza is an amazing little tool we get to play with every day.
Love 'em both,
Brunettes and Redheads
Ciao
Gio

> Latency, TDM systems are still the shizzle when it comes to this. I
> cannot record a whole band in Logic, unless I use a hardware mixer,
> or a software mixer to do a direct path back to headphones. This is
> something that still infuriates me about Logic/Native rigs, how hard
> can it be to figure out these latency issues...... it is after all
> 2007......
> 

Won't the new Apogee do 16 channels of input?

Latency is not a trivial matter to fix. The only real solution is to have a 
bypass loop of some sort to monitor the direct input. A/d and D/a take time, as 
does saving megabytes to disks. 


**************************************
 Get a 
sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Hash: SHA256

At 3:37 PM -0400 7/24/07, F Stuart Leeds wrote:
>So as I continue my migration to Apple (my Logic 7.2 arrives 
>tomorrow), and I'm getting all my AUs and standalones and sound libs 
>installed...I'm speculating about what other tools I'm going to need 
>to replicate my PC setup.
>
>For wave editing, I was a longtime Sound Forge user -- what is the 
>best equivalent on Apple? Bias Peak? Something else?

check out dsp-quattro 
(http://www.i3net.it/Products/dspQuattro/Asp/Index_EN.asp)

- -- 

"complexity is easy; simplicity is hard." Edmund Kean

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Anyone work with the free opensource product Audacity?

Skip
On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:58 PM, Ken Luke wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> At 3:37 PM -0400 7/24/07, F Stuart Leeds wrote:
> >So as I continue my migration to Apple (my Logic 7.2 arrives
> >tomorrow), and I'm getting all my AUs and standalones and sound libs
> >installed...I'm speculating about what other tools I'm going to need
> >to replicate my PC setup.
> >
> >For wave editing, I was a longtime Sound Forge user -- what is the
> >best equivalent on Apple? Bias Peak? Something else?
>
> check out dsp-quattro
> (http://www.i3net.it/Products/dspQuattro/Asp/Index_EN.asp)
>
> - --
>
> "complexity is easy; simplicity is hard." Edmund Kean
>
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--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, "pete_buchwald" <pete_buchwald@...> wrote:

>     Anyway, the question is:   What do you use Pro Tools for, and what do you use Logic 
> for?

I don't own both (I have Logic) but my first experience with digital audio was with Protools, 
and I had extensive training on it in my uni course for film soundtrack production.

Now, as an electronic music producer, I'd never try to do my composing in Protools. But 
Protools would definitely make the sound-design-with-audio-files part of what I do easier. 
That is, lining them up, editing them and fading em in and out of each other over a few 
tracks to create sound effects - I prefer Protools for that kind of chop-chop manipulation of 
audio. If someone was willing to buy me Protools, I'd use it for that to complement my Logic 
composing, but in what I do, I can easily live without it.

Quattro looks really good. THere is also Apple's Soundtrack Pro which is far 
better than Logic's sample editor.


> >For wave editing, I was a longtime Sound Forge user -- what is the 
> >best equivalent on Apple? Bias Peak? Something else?
> 




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On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:53 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> > Latency, TDM systems are still the shizzle when it comes to this. I
> > cannot record a whole band in Logic, unless I use a hardware mixer,
> > or a software mixer to do a direct path back to headphones. This is
> > something that still infuriates me about Logic/Native rigs, how hard
> > can it be to figure out these latency issues...... it is after all
> > 2007......
> >
>
> Won't the new Apogee do 16 channels of input?
>
> Latency is not a trivial matter to fix. The only real solution is  
> to have a
> bypass loop of some sort to monitor the direct input. A/d and D/a  
> take time, as
> does saving megabytes to disks.
>
So here's what I don't understand - I've not been comfortable  
monitoring via an a/d - d/a pathway, so always use "zero latency"  to  
monitor.  But the lower end hardware available makes this very  
difficult.  I can monitor a summed output via the headphone out, but  
what I need is individual outs to add to the summed out on the  
headphone amp for the "more me" requests.

My Firepod can do standalone mode OR interface mode, but can't do  
both.  For that I needed to have bought the FireStation, I believe.   
With most mixers and interfaces (under $800) with preamps you are  
lucky to get direct outs on 1 or 2 channels.  So what do people do to  
put together a recording setup with individual monitor mixes?  Is  
there some low-cost trick I am missing to split individual signals  
between the interface and headphone amp?  Or am I dismissing  
monitoring through Logic when there is a low-enough latency option to  
make it work?  I'm on a Mac Pro.

Thanks,

Gregory

> From: Wade <bloomer@...>
> 
> Now, as an electronic music producer, I'd never try to do my composing in
Protools. But 
> Protools would definitely make the sound-design-with-audio-files part of
what I do easier. 
> That is, lining them up, editing them and fading em in and out of each
other over a few 
> tracks to create sound effects - I prefer Protools for that kind of
chop-chop manipulation of 
> audio. If someone was willing to buy me Protools, I'd use it for that to
complement my Logic 
> composing, but in what I do, I can easily live without it.

If you need PT software for editing, you could buy an Mbox mini and use it
as a dongle to PT... Just a thought...

Best,

Andy

Would one or multiple 2882s handle this type of configuration,
director/loop back monitoring on outputs before any A/D - D/A?

 

I believe the answer is no, but wanted to check b/c my 2882+DSP and
ULN2+DSP are my audio interface/effx rig - Swiss army knife.  

 

Possibly making sure that everyone in the band was hearing themselves
after one set of A/D - D/A and everyone was on headphones/inear
monitoring system so everyone in sync?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

From: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Gregory
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:56 AM
To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Logic_Cafe] Re: Monitoring Latency (was Pro Tools...Logic??)

 


On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:53 PM, GAmoore@... <mailto:GAmoore%40aol.com>
wrote:

> > Latency, TDM systems are still the shizzle when it comes to this. I
> > cannot record a whole band in Logic, unless I use a hardware mixer,
> > or a software mixer to do a direct path back to headphones. This is
> > something that still infuriates me about Logic/Native rigs, how hard
> > can it be to figure out these latency issues...... it is after all
> > 2007......
> >
>
> Won't the new Apogee do 16 channels of input?
>
> Latency is not a trivial matter to fix. The only real solution is 
> to have a
> bypass loop of some sort to monitor the direct input. A/d and D/a 
> take time, as
> does saving megabytes to disks.
>
So here's what I don't understand - I've not been comfortable 
monitoring via an a/d - d/a pathway, so always use "zero latency" to 
monitor. But the lower end hardware available makes this very 
difficult. I can monitor a summed output via the headphone out, but 
what I need is individual outs to add to the summed out on the 
headphone amp for the "more me" requests.

My Firepod can do standalone mode OR interface mode, but can't do 
both. For that I needed to have bought the FireStation, I believe. 
With most mixers and interfaces (under $800) with preamps you are 
lucky to get direct outs on 1 or 2 channels. So what do people do to 
put together a recording setup with individual monitor mixes? Is 
there some low-cost trick I am missing to split individual signals 
between the interface and headphone amp? Or am I dismissing 
monitoring through Logic when there is a low-enough latency option to 
make it work? I'm on a Mac Pro.

Thanks,

Gregory

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IS THERE ONE WILLING TO TEACH ME LOGIC EXPRESS 6, MY FOCUS WOULD BE
SOUND MIX WITH VIDEO I CREATE. IF INTERESTED PLEASE CONTACT ME @
BOBBY@THEPEOPLESFILMCOMPANY.COM