Mellotronists

You know, Ignacio, if you will read back through the group message archives, you will notice that I have never been anything but supportive and encouraging to you since your very first posting. I am also someone who is skilled with one language and often frustrated in my second language, and I have been sincere about my support of you. Now you debate me with points that you deconstruct yourself, and you seem to think that because you don't like the way that I have phrased things that gives you some sort of license to attack me personally when I have made it clear several times during this debate that my observations were directed at the process of composing and not at any one person.

Regarding Mozart, you say that he created some "very good compositions from Mozart at that age" and in the next sentence you EXCUSE THEM for not being "The four seasons." So, by your own admission, they are NOT great compositions, they are just compositions that are not horrible. Faint praise, indeed.

Then you challenge me "to write better tunes and show them to us all." Ignacio, if you are going to say stupid things, don't ;expect me to not point out their stupidity. If I go to the airport and see a plane with two wings on one side and none on the other, and the engines point backwards, am I required to BUILD A BETTER PLANE before I am permitted to recognize that there is something wrong with the plane I see? Once again, read my posts. I have never said that anyone's compositions aren't good because MINE ARE BETTER, I said they weren't good because of their own lack of merit. If you have a hard time understanding that difference, then either you are over your head intellectually, or you have less of a grasp of the English language than it seems.

Next, you insult me directly, calling me "(you, wise over wise men)" and you then proceed to conflate being a COMPOSER OF MUSIC to being a LYRICIST. Are you really so ignorant as to believe that Morrison WROTE the Doors' music? I will try to put this in really simple words, so that even YOU can understand them. I am talking about the process of composition, of the interplay of melody, harmony, and rhythm. I am not talking about poetry. Are you really so ignorant of how the music industry works as to believe that the writing credits on albums actually mean anything? Yeah, Ashlee Simpson writes all of her own songs too. Come on, if you want to pretend to be intelligent, then you need to make sure that your salient points all fit together.

The next thing that you do is SUPPORT my contention that 'Lucky Man' is NOT a innovative composition, just a nice tune that works for me and leaves me in a very good mood when I listen to it" after which you once again attack me personally, saying "but again i challenge you to write a better tune with your wonderful musical skills and try to do it better." Ignacio, you are not representing yourself as being terribly intelligent when you say things like that. Once again, I never put myself on a pedestal, as a matter of fact I deliberately refrained from saying anything about my own compositions, as what I write has no bearing on the topic at hand. You say "we are not talking about absolute classics, just good music." Ignacio, that proves my point. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. You want to misinterpret my point and then argue against that misinterpretation, and then berate me for my "contemptuous tone" at your response. Well, I am contemptuous of your response, because you seem to be willfully and deliberately skirting around the issue. You tell me I am not the "owner of absolute truth." Did I ever say that I was? You say "there will be always good composers "from the beggining" and good composers after a long period of training." Who, exactly are these unidentified composers? Support your assertion. I have. You also bring the issue of "training" into the debate. Did I say anything about training? No, I said that people who have just started to write do not have the necessary grasp of the details of good writing to be able to write great music out of the gate. I've said it before, I'll say it again. RE-READ MY POSTS SLOWLY. After you understand what I actually said, I'll be happy to debate it with you, but as long as you are incorrectly characterizing the issue I brought up, you are arguing about apples when I am discussing oranges.

You then continue with an unrelated analogy, saying that it is "just like there are people who understand complex maths at first explanation, and people who can't understand the concept after several explanations, do you got the idea?" Your analogy falls flat. If you want to use mathematics as an analogy, then your point should be that even people who have never studied math can create complex mathematical axioms with little or no previous experience at it. If you can show me people that can do that, then I will gladly agree that it is possible for an unpracticed, novice composer to write great music out of the gate. Just because somebody can understand the circle of fifths doesn't mean that they can instantly write effective modulations and turnarounds.