yes, another rebuttal
2004-11-11 by jonesalley
You know, Ignacio, if you will read back through the group message
archives, you will notice that I have never been anything but supportive and
encouraging to you since your very first posting. I am also someone who is
skilled with one language and often frustrated in my second language, and I have
been sincere about my support of you. Now you debate me with points that
you deconstruct yourself, and you seem to think that because you don't like the
way that I have phrased things that gives you some sort of license to attack me
personally when I have made it clear several times during this debate that my
observations were directed at the process of composing and not at any one
person.
Regarding Mozart, you say that he created some "very good compositions from
Mozart at that age" and in the next sentence you EXCUSE THEM for not being "The
four seasons." So, by your own admission, they are NOT great compositions,
they are just compositions that are not horrible. Faint praise,
indeed.
Then you challenge me "to write better tunes and show them to us
all." Ignacio, if you are going to say stupid things, don't ;expect me
to not point out their stupidity. If I go to the airport and see a plane
with two wings on one side and none on the other, and the engines point
backwards, am I required to BUILD A BETTER PLANE before I am permitted to
recognize that there is something wrong with the plane I see? Once again,
read my posts. I have never said that anyone's compositions aren't
good because MINE ARE BETTER, I said they weren't good because of their own lack
of merit. If you have a hard time understanding that difference,
then either you are over your head intellectually, or you have less of a
grasp of the English language than it seems.
Next, you insult me directly, calling me "(you, wise over wise men)" and
you then proceed to conflate being a COMPOSER OF MUSIC to being a
LYRICIST. Are you really so ignorant as to believe that Morrison WROTE the
Doors' music? I will try to put this in really simple words, so that even
YOU can understand them. I am talking about the process of composition, of
the interplay of melody, harmony, and rhythm. I am not talking about
poetry. Are you really so ignorant of how the music industry works as to
believe that the writing credits on albums actually mean anything? Yeah,
Ashlee Simpson writes all of her own songs too. Come on, if you want
to pretend to be intelligent, then you need to make sure that your salient
points all fit together.
The next thing that you do is SUPPORT my contention that 'Lucky Man' is NOT
a innovative composition, just a nice tune that works for me and leaves me in a
very good mood when I listen to it" after which you once again attack me
personally, saying "but again i challenge you to write a better tune with your
wonderful musical skills and try to do it better." Ignacio, you are not
representing yourself as being terribly intelligent when you say things
like that. Once again, I never put myself on a pedestal, as a matter of
fact I deliberately refrained from saying anything about my own compositions, as
what I write has no bearing on the topic at hand. You say "we are not
talking about absolute classics, just good music." Ignacio, that proves my
point. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. You want to
misinterpret my point and then argue against that misinterpretation, and then
berate me for my "contemptuous tone" at your response. Well, I am
contemptuous of your response, because you seem to be willfully and deliberately
skirting around the issue. You tell me I am not the "owner of absolute
truth." Did I ever say that I was? You say "there will be
always good composers "from the beggining" and good composers after a long
period of training." Who, exactly are these unidentified composers?
Support your assertion. I have. You also bring the issue of
"training" into the debate. Did I say anything about training?
No, I said that people who have just started to write do not have the necessary
grasp of the details of good writing to be able to write great music out of the
gate. I've said it before, I'll say it again. RE-READ MY POSTS
SLOWLY. After you understand what I actually said, I'll be happy to debate
it with you, but as long as you are incorrectly characterizing the issue I
brought up, you are arguing about apples when I am discussing oranges.
You then continue with an unrelated analogy, saying that it
is "just like there are people who understand complex maths at first
explanation, and people who can't understand the concept after several
explanations, do you got the idea?" Your analogy falls flat. If you
want to use mathematics as an analogy, then your point should be that even
people who have never studied math can create complex mathematical axioms
with little or no previous experience at it. If you can show me people
that can do that, then I will gladly agree that it is possible for an
unpracticed, novice composer to write great music out of the gate. Just
because somebody can understand the circle of fifths doesn't mean that they can
instantly write effective modulations and turnarounds.
Now we come to your music and your realm of experience. You yourself
make the point that your friends "listen to Britney Spears and Alejandro Sanz,
so they're not exactly ready for the music I compose." How pompous and
arrogant of you. I think a lot of Britney's stuff is very catchy and well
written. It is vapid and intellectually vacant, but it sure is
catchy. Then you assert that you "have enough musical taste to know when I
am proud of a composition and I consider its a good tune." Well, that
lowers the bar for you, doesn't it? Britney's stuff is "good tunes."
Once again, read my post. I am talking about composition, not writing
"tunes." Tell me about your great compositions, Ignacio. You
are the one jacking yourself off in public, telling us about your "good
tunes." Where are they? I, who never had the nerve to assert
that my music was great, have been challenged to prove that my music is
great. You, mischaracterizing my points, aggrandize yourself and state
that your music is "good tunes" but you provide no evidence to that point.
Then, with the most audacity I have ever seen on this list, you assert that
"pub owners are not fans, they must get a good band to play in their bussiness
if they want people to come again and consume." ; With that idiotic
sentence, you argue against your own logic. Pub owners don't care in the
least whether a band is good or not. They only care about whether people
come again and consume. They would hire a band that got onstage and
farted songs all night long if it filled their club, and they would
advertise that it was the best band they had ever heard.
At every stage you have, by your own arguments, mischaracterizations,
misinterpretations, and lack of logic, deflated your own point and supported
mine.
You finish by saying that I am "expounding." Well, so is everybody
else on this list, why don't you take them to task for it? I see, you felt
that your own little songs were being insulted when that was not the case.
You say that I need not respond, that you are leaving the group because you
don't want to "participate in" discussions like these.
Then why did you?
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, Ignacio. If you
choose to leave, I really don't care and I won't feel any guilt about your
decision. Good-bye.