QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hello,

This is my first post here, after lurking for a while I finally came to a situation where I need the groups advice for my printing.

I have an Epson 1400 with a MIS UT-14, running QTR, and I am trying to print on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl using the QTR PK Black Only setting/profile.

Printer settings are 1440x1440 super and uni-directional, and printer setting for paper is set to Matte.

It looks great, the tone is perfect, but even after several days, the printouts continues to rub off.

Is there a way to get around this using some other settings, or do I need to spray all printouts (which is far from ideal as I really have no good place where I can spray, inside is too smelly, and on the balcony there's way too much dust and crap attaching to the sticky spray only seconds after I have applied a layer of it).

Thanks!!


Best
J.F. Felinik

UT14 K is Eboni MK, which is for matte paper only.   See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf  for a description of the inkset,
including the inks.  For relatively neutral "black only" type of approach
you can use a black only curve on the C position.

If your goal was a 100% carbon print on glossy paper that looks neutral,
I'm afraid there is no really good, practical solution.  A lot of fixative
is needed to hold down the Eboni.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Glossy.pdf   The results are also a
bit grainy looking.

I also experimented with using gloss optimizer in a second pass to hold
down Eboni.  It can be done, but the problems of roller marks and other
artifacts didn't impress me.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3MK-Glossy.pdf

UT 14 can do both of the above using K (Eboni MK) and M (Photo black).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 6:15 AM, jffelinik <felix.niklasson@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This is my first post here, after lurking for a while I finally came to a
> situation where I need the groups advice for my printing.
>
> I have an Epson 1400 with a MIS UT-14, running QTR, and I am trying to
> print on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl using the QTR PK Black Only
> setting/profile.
>
> Printer settings are 1440x1440 super and uni-directional, and printer
> setting for paper is set to Matte.
>
> It looks great, the tone is perfect, but even after several days, the
> printouts continues to rub off.
>
> Is there a way to get around this using some other settings, or do I need
> to spray all printouts (which is far from ideal as I really have no good
> place where I can spray, inside is too smelly, and on the balcony there's
> way too much dust and crap attaching to the sticky spray only seconds after
> I have applied a layer of it).
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Best
> J.F. Felinik
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HI Paul,

Thanks for chiming in here.

My goal is to get as neutral prints as possible, and I really like the tone using the Galerie Smooth Pearl papers, its just perfect. 

I've used your Kirkland-Glossy-N ICC for prints on other papers as a "generic" Glossy curve, maybe I should just give it a shot here too..

:)


Cheers,
J.F. Felinik

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> UT14 K is Eboni MK, which is for matte paper only.   See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf  for a description of the inkset,
> including the inks.  For relatively neutral "black only" type of approach
> you can use a black only curve on the C position.
> 
> If your goal was a 100% carbon print on glossy paper that looks neutral,
> I'm afraid there is no really good, practical solution.  A lot of fixative
> is needed to hold down the Eboni.  See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Glossy.pdf   The results are also a
> bit grainy looking.
> 
> I also experimented with using gloss optimizer in a second pass to hold
> down Eboni.  It can be done, but the problems of roller marks and other
> artifacts didn't impress me.  See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3MK-Glossy.pdf
> 
> UT 14 can do both of the above using K (Eboni MK) and M (Photo black).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Hi again,

I ended up with your UltraPremGlossPP-N-1-rgb ICC, it seems to work great for neutral on the Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl papers here.

So for the QTR PK-IlfGalerieSmoothPrl-BO and the other PK curves shipped with QTR, they all will need some kind of coating in order not to rub off when printed on the papers they actually represent? Is there any way to, in the future, add glop in those curves to ensure they don't rub off? That'd be just GREAT!


Thanks for your great work with MIS and with QTR, and for all your instruction PDF's out there!!!


Cheers
J.F. Felinik

> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > UT14 K is Eboni MK, which is for matte paper only.   See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf  for a description of the inkset,
> > including the inks.  For relatively neutral "black only" type of approach
> > you can use a black only curve on the C position.
> > 
> > If your goal was a 100% carbon print on glossy paper that looks neutral,
> > I'm afraid there is no really good, practical solution.  A lot of fixative
> > is needed to hold down the Eboni.  See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Glossy.pdf   The results are also a
> > bit grainy looking.
> > 
> > I also experimented with using gloss optimizer in a second pass to hold
> > down Eboni.  It can be done, but the problems of roller marks and other
> > artifacts didn't impress me.  See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3MK-Glossy.pdf
> > 
> > UT 14 can do both of the above using K (Eboni MK) and M (Photo black).
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
>

I posted mostly PS curves and ICCs for UT14.  The rip profiles were mostly
left to users.  To a certain extent, however, the same concepts apply.

The way UT14 is set up, if the tones with a starting curve like the
Kirkland glossy N are not quite right, go to the *.acv and simply make
offsetting moves of the Green and Red points.  Note that the dmax is
usually reached before the 100 point.  A curves set with green and red
straight and blue off will help find the dmax point.  Print this test strip
--  http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/80-100.jpg  -- with that curve first.

See the Ilford Gold neutral curve for an example of how to adjust glop if
there is bronzing.

For the rip just be aware that the 255 point allows no inks.  So, you have
to start with 254. (I think.  I don't use the QTR-glop combo much.)

As with whether glop can hold down Eboni, see the 1800 URL I noted earlier.
 The 100% point with Eboni was too much for glop to handle.  So, with glop
I used PK at that end.  It'll cause some warmth in the deep shadows.  If
you used the UT14 C the tones would be cool, but it's not 100% carbon
either if long term display stability is important to you.

With lots of glop and a second pass, the problems of pizza wheel marks
becomes serious.

Let us know if you find a way to nail down Eboni that is artifact and toxic
spray free.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 8:01 AM, jffelinik <felix.niklasson@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> HI Paul,
>
> Thanks for chiming in here.
>
> My goal is to get as neutral prints as possible, and I really like the
> tone using the Galerie Smooth Pearl papers, its just perfect.
>
> I've used your Kirkland-Glossy-N ICC for prints on other papers as a
> "generic" Glossy curve, maybe I should just give it a shot here too..
>
> :)
>
> Cheers,
> J.F. Felinik
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
> >
> > UT14 K is Eboni MK, which is for matte paper only. See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf for a description of the
> inkset,
> > including the inks. For relatively neutral "black only" type of approach
> > you can use a black only curve on the C position.
> >
> > If your goal was a 100% carbon print on glossy paper that looks neutral,
> > I'm afraid there is no really good, practical solution. A lot of fixative
> > is needed to hold down the Eboni. See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Glossy.pdf The results are also a
> > bit grainy looking.
> >
> > I also experimented with using gloss optimizer in a second pass to hold
> > down Eboni. It can be done, but the problems of roller marks and other
> > artifacts didn't impress me. See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3MK-Glossy.pdf
> >
> > UT 14 can do both of the above using K (Eboni MK) and M (Photo black).
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I will see if I have the time during my summer leave in August, until then there's no way I will be able to dig into this. I started printing some months ago and I am not that familiar with everything, yet, but I have an IT/Computer background so with the tech stuff I'm quite a geek and savvy, but time is a constraint....

So for now the UPGPP ICC will be good enough, even though I do like the black only profile results better, though the "customer" (a friend, ie. non paying, I can't charge until I know what I am doing...), wants album prints and not framed prints, this will have to do.


Best,

Cheers,
J.F. Felinik


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I posted mostly PS curves and ICCs for UT14.  The rip profiles were mostly
> left to users.  To a certain extent, however, the same concepts apply.
> 
> The way UT14 is set up, if the tones with a starting curve like the
> Kirkland glossy N are not quite right, go to the *.acv and simply make
> offsetting moves of the Green and Red points.  Note that the dmax is
> usually reached before the 100 point.  A curves set with green and red
> straight and blue off will help find the dmax point.  Print this test strip
> --  http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/80-100.jpg  -- with that curve first.
> 
> See the Ilford Gold neutral curve for an example of how to adjust glop if
> there is bronzing.
> 
> For the rip just be aware that the 255 point allows no inks.  So, you have
> to start with 254. (I think.  I don't use the QTR-glop combo much.)
> 
> As with whether glop can hold down Eboni, see the 1800 URL I noted earlier.
>  The 100% point with Eboni was too much for glop to handle.  So, with glop
> I used PK at that end.  It'll cause some warmth in the deep shadows.  If
> you used the UT14 C the tones would be cool, but it's not 100% carbon
> either if long term display stability is important to you.
> 
> With lots of glop and a second pass, the problems of pizza wheel marks
> becomes serious.
> 
> Let us know if you find a way to nail down Eboni that is artifact and toxic
> spray free.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Oh, bronzing, is that the "reflection" effect I get on most of my prints when I hold the print in certain angles towards the light?

Can this be avoided with glop adjustment? Not that it bothers me really, when the print is seen hanging on the wall or in an album, it's rarely visible...


Cheers,
J.F. Felinik

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> See the Ilford Gold neutral curve for an example of how to adjust glop if
> there is bronzing.

jffelinik <felix.niklasson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Oh, bronzing, is that the "reflection" effect I get on most of my prints
> when I hold the print in certain angles towards the light?
>
> Can this be avoided with glop adjustment? Not that it bothers me really,
> when the print is seen hanging on the wall or in an album, it's rarely
> visible...
>
Yes.  The MIS glossy inks use the gloss optimizer as a base, so they
exhibit less of this artifact than the coated pigments of Epson or HP, but
adding more glop can reduce the problem.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul,

What do you mean with this? How do I adjust the glop?

Thanks!


Cheers,
J.F. Felinik

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> See the Ilford Gold neutral curve for an example of how to adjust glop if
> there is bronzing.

I did a try with "Fix Spray" bought from an artist material shop, after three layers it seemed to hold down the Eboni perfectly, downsides were that;

1. It's hard to get it evenly sprayed over the photo
2. It smells horrible, I had to do it on the balcony with my photo in a paper box
3. It's propably deadly...

But it made me think in an other direction, wouldn't it be possible to create a "glop only" profile for QTR, that could be mixed in with the BO profiles? Or am I just dreaming?

Anyway, your 1400-UT14-UltraPremGlossPP-N-1-rgb does a great job here with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, neutral and nice, and it really makes a difference what paper is set in the printer settings, I found that "Archival Matte" makes a very neutral print with afaics no bronzing....

:)


Best

Cheers,
J.F. Felinik

--
http://felinik.com/


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> Let us know if you find a way to nail down Eboni that is artifact and toxic
> spray free.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Hi,

Sorry for the delay in responding.  I've been in the Sierra's at the Golden
Trout Workshop.

Getting the least amount of bronzing with glossy inks is done by adjusting
the yellow positions ink, which is gloss optimizer in the UT14 inkset.
 There is no way to do this except to look at the prints and simply adjust
the ink to what looks the best.  The PS image adjustment curve I noted is
simply an example that worked will this that paper.  With the QTR rip you
have a problem that 255 (pure white in the file) cannot lay down any glop.
 So, you still have gloss differential between the paper white and
highlights.  Starting the files at 254 is how people take care of this QTR
characteristic, I believe.  I did not set up UT14 QTR rip profiles.

Paul

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 12:06 PM, jffelinik <felix.niklasson@gmail.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> What do you mean with this? How do I adjust the glop?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Cheers,
> J.F. Felinik
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> > See the Ilford Gold neutral curve for an example of how to adjust glop if
> > there is bronzing.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No biggie, I'm not in a hurry... :)

Yeah, the glop is in the yellow cart, so when using your ICC profiles I simply need to adjust the "yellow" using the Epson driver?

Regarding the 1400 profiles in QTR for the glossy papers, it should probably be mentioned somewhere very obvious that the ink will rub off unless the printout is treated after its done. I, and probably quite a few more "newbies" than me, wasted quite a bunch of glossy papers (and ink) of different sorts before understanding that "this wont work". Not really a pleasant surprise.


Thanks.


Cheers
/J.F. Felinik


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding.  I've been in the Sierra's at the Golden
> Trout Workshop.
> 
> Getting the least amount of bronzing with glossy inks is done by adjusting
> the yellow positions ink, which is gloss optimizer in the UT14 inkset.
>  There is no way to do this except to look at the prints and simply adjust
> the ink to what looks the best.  The PS image adjustment curve I noted is
> simply an example that worked will this that paper.  With the QTR rip you
> have a problem that 255 (pure white in the file) cannot lay down any glop.
>  So, you still have gloss differential between the paper white and
> highlights.  Starting the files at 254 is how people take care of this QTR
> characteristic, I believe.  I did not set up UT14 QTR rip profiles.
> 
> Paul

jffelinik <felix.niklasson@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... the glop is in the yellow cart, so when using your ICC profiles I
> simply need to adjust the "yellow" using the Epson driver?
>

If you are using the ICC workflow, the best way to adjust the glop in the
yellow position would be to go to the underlying PS curve and then
re-linearize the system by making a new ICC.

If you're using the rip, I point to the PS curves as simply an example of
what I found worked reasonably well with that workflow.  The PS blue curve
controlling the yellow ink/glop could be easily matched in QTR with a
manually drawn curve.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]