QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi,

I read the Quadtone RIP user manual. I want to buy a photospectro- or densitometer. To measure densities, linearize a Quadtone RIP and making ICC profiles. I looked at the Colormunki Photo, Spyder Print, I1 Pro, .. but they are quite expensive (to start with). I read in the Quadtone RIP manual (2005) about the use of X-Rite 810 densitometer. I found them very cheap on Ebay. Are they usable and trustable, or is this technology to old and do you advice to use newer gear? The X-Rite 810 works via serial port which I don't have anymore on my pc (very new one). But I guess there is a workaround for that.

Thank you!

Ben Albu
Belgium

I don't know about the 810, I have an 811 model.
I bought it cheap, replaced the measuring light and calibrated it.
It is very reliable and helps a lot with density readings, especially for alternative processes. I work the readings manually, never got the outdated software for PC working...
For inkjet profiling, I use an i1pro. The readings are semi-automatically transferred to my computer, thus making profile creation a snap.
If you plan to work with digital print profiling only, I would recommend the second option, as it will also allow you to make color profiles.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "reallybelgium"  wrote:

>
> Hi,
> 
> I read the Quadtone RIP user manual. I want to buy a photospectro- or densitometer. To measure densities, linearize a Quadtone RIP and making ICC profiles. I looked at the Colormunki Photo, Spyder Print, I1 Pro, .. but they are quite expensive (to start with). I read in the Quadtone RIP manual (2005) about the use of X-Rite 810 densitometer. I found them very cheap on Ebay. Are they usable and trustable, or is this technology to old and do you advice to use newer gear? The X-Rite 810 works via serial port which I don't have anymore on my pc (very new one). But I guess there is a workaround for that.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Ben Albu
> Belgium
>

I have been using an x rite 820 (very similar to the 810) to make qtr profiles and qtr icc for a while.  It works well, but there are things you should be aware of.  
The work around for not connecting to the computer is manual entry of the data.  Not difficult at all.  
If you buy a unit without a calibration plaque, they are expensive.  The last I looked. I think they were up to $125 in the US. You must have this to calibrate the unit.   Check the x rite web site.  Replacement bulbs are also pricey.  These potential expenses can bring it pretty close to the color munki in a hurry.
As Sidney stated, with a densitometer you can profile for density only, not color or hue.  That may or may not matter to you.

Peter

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney"  wrote:

>
> I don't know about the 810, I have an 811 model.
> I bought it cheap, replaced the measuring light and calibrated it.
> It is very reliable and helps a lot with density readings, especially for alternative processes. I work the readings manually, never got the outdated software for PC working...
> For inkjet profiling, I use an i1pro. The readings are semi-automatically transferred to my computer, thus making profile creation a snap.
> If you plan to work with digital print profiling only, I would recommend the second option, as it will also allow you to make color profiles.
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "reallybelgium"  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I read the Quadtone RIP user manual. I want to buy a photospectro- or densitometer. To measure densities, linearize a Quadtone RIP and making ICC profiles. I looked at the Colormunki Photo, Spyder Print, I1 Pro, .. but they are quite expensive (to start with). I read in the Quadtone RIP manual (2005) about the use of X-Rite 810 densitometer. I found them very cheap on Ebay. Are they usable and trustable, or is this technology to old and do you advice to use newer gear? The X-Rite 810 works via serial port which I don't have anymore on my pc (very new one). But I guess there is a workaround for that.
> > 
> > Thank you!
> > 
> > Ben Albu
> > Belgium
> >
>

I bought our i1Pro for profiling.
Recently purchased spectrashop software that amongst other very useful things, gives reflection density readings from my eye one.
It also allows me to make transmission measurements too! (including density). cost 95USD
Our old transmission densitometer died years ago so its great to get this functionality back (and a whole heap more) from something we already owned.

http://www.rmimaging.com/spectrashop.html



Regards
Peter Miles

Note: I am not associated with this product, its creator or his business other than I use his software with my i1one where I work (in new zealand).


On 12/02/2013, at 6:25 AM, john wrote:

> I have been using an x rite 820 (very similar to the 810) to make qtr profiles and qtr icc for a while. It works well, but there are things you should be aware of. 
> The work around for not connecting to the computer is manual entry of the data. Not difficult at all. 
> If you buy a unit without a calibration plaque, they are expensive. The last I looked. I think they were up to $125 in the US. You must have this to calibrate the unit. Check the x rite web site. Replacement bulbs are also pricey. These potential expenses can bring it pretty close to the color munki in a hurry.
> As Sidney stated, with a densitometer you can profile for density only, not color or hue. That may or may not matter to you.
> 
> Peter
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney" wrote:
> >
> > I don't know about the 810, I have an 811 model.
> > I bought it cheap, replaced the measuring light and calibrated it.
> > It is very reliable and helps a lot with density readings, especially for alternative processes. I work the readings manually, never got the outdated software for PC working...
> > For inkjet profiling, I use an i1pro. The readings are semi-automatically transferred to my computer, thus making profile creation a snap.
> > If you plan to work with digital print profiling only, I would recommend the second option, as it will also allow you to make color profiles.
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "reallybelgium" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I read the Quadtone RIP user manual. I want to buy a photospectro- or densitometer. To measure densities, linearize a Quadtone RIP and making ICC profiles. I looked at the Colormunki Photo, Spyder Print, I1 Pro, .. but they are quite expensive (to start with). I read in the Quadtone RIP manual (2005) about the use of X-Rite 810 densitometer. I found them very cheap on Ebay. Are they usable and trustable, or is this technology to old and do you advice to use newer gear? The X-Rite 810 works via serial port which I don't have anymore on my pc (very new one). But I guess there is a workaround for that.
> > > 
> > > Thank you!
> > > 
> > > Ben Albu
> > > Belgium
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Peter Miles
Photography Technician
Fine Art Dept.
College of Creative Arts
Massey University
63 Wallace Street
Wellington
New Zealand.

Telephone:   (+64) 4 801 5799, ext. 63281
Fax:	(+64) 4 801 0491
E-mail: P.Miles@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Peter,

I'm very much interested in what extra hardware, if any, you need to make transmission measurements with this software.

I purchased an I1Pro at auction, just the unit - no software, and use it with colorport for reflective measurements.

I did do many searhes on transmissive measurements for it, but came up empty handed. I suspected it could handle them as it can do emissive, but never got my search string to hit a target.

peace out

Glenn

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Peter Miles  wrote:

>
> I bought our i1Pro for profiling.
> Recently purchased spectrashop software that amongst other very useful things, gives reflection density readings from my eye one.
> It also allows me to make transmission measurements too! (including density). cost 95USD
> Our old transmission densitometer died years ago so its great to get this functionality back (and a whole heap more) from something we already owned.
> 
> http://www.rmimaging.com/spectrashop.html
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Peter Miles
> 
> Note: I am not associated with this product, its creator or his business other than I use his software with my i1one where I work (in new zealand).
> 
> 
> On 12/02/2013, at 6:25 AM, john wrote:
> 
> > I have been using an x rite 820 (very similar to the 810) to make qtr profiles and qtr icc for a while. It works well, but there are things you should be aware of. 
> > The work around for not connecting to the computer is manual entry of the data. Not difficult at all. 
> > If you buy a unit without a calibration plaque, they are expensive. The last I looked. I think they were up to $125 in the US. You must have this to calibrate the unit. Check the x rite web site. Replacement bulbs are also pricey. These potential expenses can bring it pretty close to the color munki in a hurry.
> > As Sidney stated, with a densitometer you can profile for density only, not color or hue. That may or may not matter to you.
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Sidney" wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't know about the 810, I have an 811 model.
> > > I bought it cheap, replaced the measuring light and calibrated it.
> > > It is very reliable and helps a lot with density readings, especially for alternative processes. I work the readings manually, never got the outdated software for PC working...
> > > For inkjet profiling, I use an i1pro. The readings are semi-automatically transferred to my computer, thus making profile creation a snap.
> > > If you plan to work with digital print profiling only, I would recommend the second option, as it will also allow you to make color profiles.
> > > 
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "reallybelgium" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > I read the Quadtone RIP user manual. I want to buy a photospectro- or densitometer. To measure densities, linearize a Quadtone RIP and making ICC profiles. I looked at the Colormunki Photo, Spyder Print, I1 Pro, .. but they are quite expensive (to start with). I read in the Quadtone RIP manual (2005) about the use of X-Rite 810 densitometer. I found them very cheap on Ebay. Are they usable and trustable, or is this technology to old and do you advice to use newer gear? The X-Rite 810 works via serial port which I don't have anymore on my pc (very new one). But I guess there is a workaround for that.
> > > > 
> > > > Thank you!
> > > > 
> > > > Ben Albu
> > > > Belgium
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> Peter Miles
> Photography Technician
> Fine Art Dept.
> College of Creative Arts
> Massey University
> 63 Wallace Street
> Wellington
> New Zealand.
> 
> Telephone:   (+64) 4 801 5799, ext. 63281
> Fax:	(+64) 4 801 0491
> E-mail: P.Miles@...
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Extra equipment needed - a light box

In transmission mode the software asks you  to calibrate the eye-one in two steps.
first on the calibration tile, then it asks you to place your spectro on your light box
and click the "Cal Trans" button.
This sets the light box light as being "spectrally neutral' 

Because the calculations are made from the spectral data it would make sense to use a light box whose light output does not have spectral gaps in it's output.
Such as the from daylight tri-phoshpor fluorescents or something with a reasonably good color-rendering index (CRI).
I've only tried it with the transparency back light from our GTI viewing booth and it works just fine.
Once we get out day-view light boxed fixed, a horizontal surface light box would make it more convent than the vertical surface of the GTI.

You could measure your existing light box with your eye-one on emissive mode and just have a look at the spectra.

If you email Robin Myers you can get a fully functional 30 day trail copy of the software. Or you could at the time I purchased it (Sep 2012).


regards
Peter



On 13/02/2013, at 11:54 AM, Glenn wrote:

> Hi Peter,
> 
> I'm very much interested in what extra hardware, if any, you need to make transmission measurements with this software.
> 
> I purchased an I1Pro at auction, just the unit - no software, and use it with colorport for reflective measurements.
> 
> I did do many searhes on transmissive measurements for it, but came up empty handed. I suspected it could handle them as it can do emissive, but never got my search string to hit a target.
> 
> peace out
> 
> G
> 
> 

Peter Miles
Photography Technician
Fine Art Dept.
College of Creative Arts
Massey University
63 Wallace Street
Wellington
New Zealand.

Telephone:   (+64) 4 801 5799, ext. 63281
Fax:	(+64) 4 801 0491
E-mail: P.Miles@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 02/13/2013 05:25 AM, Peter Miles wrote:
> Extra equipment needed - a light box
>
> In transmission mode the software asks you to calibrate the eye-one in
> two steps.
> first on the calibration tile, then it asks you to place your spectro on
> your light box
> and click the "Cal Trans" button.
> This sets the light box light as being "spectrally neutral'
>
> Because the calculations are made from the spectral data it would make
> sense to use a light box whose light output does not have spectral gaps
> in it's output.
> Such as the from daylight tri-phoshpor fluorescents or something with a
> reasonably good color-rendering index (CRI).
> I've only tried it with the transparency back light from our GTI viewing
> booth and it works just fine.
> Once we get out day-view light boxed fixed, a horizontal surface light
> box would make it more convent than the vertical surface of the GTI.
>
> You could measure your existing light box with your eye-one on emissive
> mode and just have a look at the spectra.
>
> If you email Robin Myers you can get a fully functional 30 day trail
> copy of the software. Or you could at the time I purchased it (Sep 2012).
>
> regards
> Peter

Ben will not need the transmission density measurement function for his 
workflow. Any reflective spectrometer ot colorimeter that measures L 
values correctly between 5 and 100 and export that in text or CSV is 
what he needs. The rest can be done with QTR tools.

If that transmission density measurement is needed for alternative photo 
processes that use a film positive or negative for a copying step then a 
measurement of the blocking of UV light (the actinic part of the UV 
range) is more appropriate. Which means the meter is question should at 
least measure into UV and the light source used should mainly have UV 
light in its spectrum. It will still not totally represent the copying 
conditions but come closer to that. It is however easier but more time 
consuming to measure an alternative process print target at the end of 
the process in reflective mode and base the curves for the positive film 
on that measurement.

For a display light box positive it makes sense to use the same lamps 
for both the display light box and the measurements. Fluorescents or 
LEDs, even with the best CRI, do not have a continuous spectrum in their 
output but at least there is no difference between the two light 
sources. Not many that need a transmission measurement like that.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

These are all good points. 
That said, Bens decision is wether to buy an Xrite i1 or an 810. 

The context in which I would consider that purchase would be
1) Value for money
2) Service life of purchase
3) Ease of use for intended function
4) Current and possible future needs


Things I'd consider in that decision...
Xrite 810
	Reflection: 		units density
	Transmission: 	units density
	interface:		RS232
	OS support			?
Pros:
	Very Good price
	measure Reflectance
	measure Transmittance
	Density from 0-4
Cons 
	- support / maintenance in the future?
	 -measured reflectance (Density) will need manual entry and possible conversion to other units of measure. Unless you get on top of the RS232 interface from your 810 to your computer and figure a way to use the data it sends. Maybe this is been done already by people on this list.



i1Pro
	Reflection: units: Lab,spectral...  (software needed, but 'Demo')
	Transmission: units: Lab,spectral...  (additional expense for software)
	Emissive: units: Lab... (available with spectrashop software)
	interface:		USB
	OS support		currently supported

Pros
	measure Reflectance
	measure Transmittance
	measure Emissive
	instrument can be used to read ICC profiling patches.
	instrument  / software readout includes the needed L* measurements
	some measurements exportable with Demo versions of appropriate software.
	Strip patch reading options available 
	Maintenance / product life: currently supported hardware.
	USB interface:  currently supported by most OS / hardware
	Transmission functionality can be achieved with a software purchase. 
	more flexible instrumnet than an 810 
Cons
	more expensive!
	extra functionality may not be needed
	
Hope that helps Ben

Regards
Peter Miles

On 15/02/2013 07:27, Peter Miles wrote:
> ... Unless you get on top of the RS232 interface from your 810 to your computer and figure a way
> to use the data it sends. Maybe this is been done already by people on this list.

With my 810 I have used ToolCrib/X-key (5.0.14) in Windows XP with good 
results. Haven't installed and tested it in Windows 7 yet, nor with a 
RS232-USB adapter.

Louis

Paul Roark used/uses a Spyder 3, the Spyder 4 has a price of 160 Euro 
including VAT in Europe, there are even cheaper Spyders at 100 Euro. 
Modern solid state hardware that can do color profiles as well if needed 
and I guess that happens more often than alternative B&W processing. If 
it has to be a spectrometer then the Color Munki can do a fine job, 360 
Euro.

www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Spectro.pdf

http://www.eizowinkel.nl/accessoires/kalibratiesensoren.html
comparable pricing can be found in Belgium.

If the software included is not advanced enough for reflective 
measurements then there is ArgyllCMS with a long list of compatible 
spectro- and colorimeters and the meters above are in that list. Linux, 
Windows, OS-X support.

http://argyllcms.com/doc/instruments.html

If it has to be cheaper then a secondhand Spyder or Color Munki will 
still be easier to use and includes Lab a b values that a densitometer 
like the 810 will not deliver.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

Sorry, I had it wrong, the Spyders are supported as display colorimeters 
only in ArgyllCMS as I understand it now. They are only usable as 
reflective meters with the DataColor Print software. DataColor is not 
willing to cooperate to make that function available in ArgyllCMS.

A secondhand Spyder Print bundle is then probably the cheapest solution. 
Or a secondhand ColorMunki.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

Dear all,

Thank you for your interesting replies!

Ben Albu

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> Sorry, I had it wrong, the Spyders are supported as display colorimeters 
> only in ArgyllCMS as I understand it now. They are only usable as 
> reflective meters with the DataColor Print software. DataColor is not 
> willing to cooperate to make that function available in ArgyllCMS.
> 
> A secondhand Spyder Print bundle is then probably the cheapest solution. 
> Or a secondhand ColorMunki.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
> 
> http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
> December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
>