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Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-18 by amog19@...

Hi Everybody,


When I started to look for a dedicated b/w printer solution, for quite some time I labored on the question which of the commercially available ready-formulated b/w ink-sets to use (P. Roark's solutions at MIS, Piezography, farbenwerk etc.). All the b/w solutions I have become aware of completely replace all color channels with shades of black/grey - and leave no color to control toning. When I recently got hold of a used R3000 (needed revival) I thought this is the right printer to try 5 channels black and 3 channels color. I want to use pigment ink and print on matte papers. The ink-set may be called "K5C3" :-)


I am a beginner with modding ink sets, but I want to give it a try.


Here is my current idea of the ink-set:

100% MK

60% - 81% MK (needs testing to figure out)

27% MK

9% MK

3% MK

100% C

100% M (VM)

100% Y


I got pigment black and clear base (P. Roark formulation) from MIS Associates. For CMY I will use some 3rd party pigment ink - after I got figured out the blacks and how to control them with QTR.


I am new to QTR and to this QTR group. I spent some time playing with QTR and think I am able to figure out how to use it. And I will browse for other people's posts that may provide information valuable to this project and QTR. In case you know something / someone with a similar approach, let me know - I will apreciate it.


In case you are interested I can give you a draft on my current idea how to appraoch that project and report when I am progressing.


Best Regards,

Amin


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-19 by David Kachel

Amin,

I just went a similar route.

Your second black is way too strong. You will not get useful distinction between it and 100% K. More concentrated than 30% gives no advantage.
I am using this combination and it is working out very well:

K = 100%
K2 = 30%
K3 = 18%
K4 = 9%
K5 = 4%
M = M
Y = Y
What I’m doing with the remaining slot is super top secret for now, but it could certainly hold C.

Don\u2019t use 3rd party pigment inks. What\u2019s the point of using super-stable K ink if you are going to add some oddball, unknown quantity color ink that will burst into flames the second daylight hits it?!
Buy outdated cartridges for larger Epson pigment ink machines and drain them. Better yet, do what I did. Buy outdated cartridges for large HP Vivera pigment printers. The HP inks work in the Epson printers (but not vice versa) and are far more stable. The Epson inks last decades, the HP inks, centuries. A no-brainer!

One precaution. I am using an Epson 3800 for this. How it might perform in a 3000 is a complete mystery to me. You probably won\u2019t blow up your neighborhood, but you could destroy your printer. Either way, I never heard of you!

;-)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

From: "amog19@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2014 at 2:02 PM
To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

100% MK

60% - 81% MK (needs testing to figure out)

27% MK

9% MK

3% MK

100% C

100% M (VM)

100% Y

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-19 by Elliot Puritz

David:

 

Would you mind being just a bit more specific as to exactly which HP
cartridges you buy, i.e., which model HP printer?

 

Elliot
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:26 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice
appreciated

 

  

Amin,

 

I just went a similar route.

 

Your second black is way too strong. You will not get useful distinction
between it and 100% K. More concentrated than 30% gives no advantage.

I am using this combination and it is working out very well:

 

K = 100%

K2 = 30%

K3 = 18%

K4 = 9%

K5 = 4%

M = M

Y = Y

What I'm doing with the remaining slot is super top secret for now, but it
could certainly hold C.

 

Don't use 3rd party pigment inks. What's the point of using super-stable K
ink if you are going to add some oddball, unknown quantity color ink that
will burst into flames the second daylight hits it?!

Buy outdated cartridges for larger Epson pigment ink machines and drain
them. Better yet, do what I did. Buy outdated cartridges for large HP Vivera
pigment printers. The HP inks work in the Epson printers (but not vice
versa) and are far more stable. The Epson inks last decades, the HP inks,
centuries. A no-brainer!

 

One precaution. I am using an Epson 3800 for this. How it might perform in a
3000 is a complete mystery to me. You probably won't blow up your
neighborhood, but you could destroy your printer. Either way, I never heard
of you!

 

;-)

 

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787

 

From: "amog19@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2014 at 2:02 PM
To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice
appreciated

 

100% MK

60% - 81% MK (needs testing to figure out)

27% MK

9% MK

3% MK

100% C

100% M (VM)

100% Y

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-19 by Paul Roark

I mostly concur with David.

I used a similar inkset with the 3 colors for toning, although with dyes, last year. See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-5K-Plus.pdf . The profiles may give some ideas when it comes time for that.

I would recommend, however, that you use LM and LC as opposed to the full strength versions of those. Particularly with the C, you might find you'll see the dots in the highlights. The generic base will probably work find for diluting the C and M. When you dilute you own, the price for top quality color pigs is quite reasonable.

Good luck with the setup.

Paul


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:26 PM, David Kachel david@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Amin,

I just went a similar route.

Your second black is way too strong. You will not get useful distinction between it and 100% K. More concentrated than 30% gives no advantage.
I am using this combination and it is working out very well:

K = 100%
K2 = 30%
K3 = 18%
K4 = 9%
K5 = 4%
M = M
Y = Y
What I’m doing with the remaining slot is super top secret for now, but it could certainly hold C.

Don’t use 3rd party pigment inks. What’s the point of using super-stable K ink if you are going to add some oddball, unknown quantity color ink that will burst into flames the second daylight hits it?!
Buy outdated cartridges for larger Epson pigment ink machines and drain them. Better yet, do what I did. Buy outdated cartridges for large HP Vivera pigment printers. The HP inks work in the Epson printers (but not vice versa) and are far more stable. The Epson inks last decades, the HP inks, centuries. A no-brainer!

One precaution. I am using an Epson 3800 for this. How it might perform in a 3000 is a complete mystery to me. You probably won’t blow up your neighborhood, but you could destroy your printer. Either way, I never heard of you!

;-)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs


PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734

From: "amog19@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <;QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2014 at 2:02 PM
To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

100% MK

60% - 81% MK (needs testing to figure out)

27% MK

9% MK

3% MK

100% C

100% M (VM)

100% Y


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-19 by David Kachel

It doesn\u2019t matter. Any that use the Vivera ink set.
Right now I have a 91 Yellow 775ml and a 70 Magenta 130 ml.
Those are just what I happened to find available when I was looking.
I believe the 70 fits the Z2100 and the 91 fits the Z6100, but I\u2019m not certain.
I have already used up one Magenta cartridge (I had two) and a similar quantity from the bigger Yellow cartridge with zero trouble.
They are also easier to get ink out of. The Epson cartridges must be split open, while you can just insert a syringe into the HP cartridges to withdraw ink. Far less messy.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

From: "'Elliot Puritz' drpuritz@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM
To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

Would you mind being just a bit more specific as to exactly which HP cartridges you buy, i.e., which model HP printer?


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-19 by David Kachel

Paul and I have discussed the use of LM vs M in the past. I am using M with no problems, but I am after a heavy brown tone, not just \u201cwarm\u201d; tones. I don\u2019t use C at all, so can\u2019t be any help there.
It might be a good idea to follow Paul\u2019s approach and start with the Light versions. You can always switch to the heavier inks down the road if you feel the need.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

From: "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2014 at 10:06 PM
To: QTR-Forum <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

I would recommend, however, that you use LM and LC as opposed to the full strength versions of those. Particularly with the C, you might find you'll see the dots in the highlights. The generic base will probably work find for diluting the C and M. When you dilute you own, the price for top quality color pigs is quite reasonable.

Re: Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-19 by amog19@...

David, Paul,


thanks for your very valuable advice - this already helped me refine my approach. Some thoughts in reply:


@ David, Paul, re K2: when doing the test chart print with QTR in calibration mode, the 100% K-channel maxes latest at around 40% and is from then on indistinguishable from the denser values. My reasoning at this point is to not leave the shadows to the K-channel but to identify a shade that pushes that max point beyond 40% (my individually perceived max point). When I look at David and Paul's K2 (also Paul's other ink set formulations) 30% seems to be the maximum possible. I conclude that this is general consensus based on testing different dilutions for K2.


@ David, re 3rd party pigment for CMY: I don't want to bust my printer / prints with bad quality pigment :-) My personal challenge is that I live in Germany and don't have access to good quality 3rd party ink products at fair prices as you have with e.g. MIS. Quality third party inks available here cost literaly about twice as much. I also don't know about a source for outdated OEM inks. Therefore my careful step-by-step spending approach. I got good shipping rates from Michael at Precisioncolors, but haven't heard from him quite some time. I hope he is doing fine.


@ David, Paul, re light C/M: thanks for the advice to use LVM and LC instead of M/C. I see in Paul's K5 article that you even do custom dilutions, e.g. 30% Magenta.


Best Regards,
Amin

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Convert K3 to K5 plus C3 (for toning) - advice appreciated

2014-10-20 by Roy Harrington

Hi Amin,

I see you've gotten a lot of good advise. I'd agree in general.

But I wonder why go through all this trouble -- especially just starting out.
I think the standard Epson inks are great if you want the most flexibility with toning.
Using more grays to rid your prints of dots at the expense of seeing more dots
of color inks might not be the best tradeoff. Using the LC and LM is better but you'll
have less toning possibility in the shadows.

If you really want to learn and do custom inks and curves, starting with the standard
inks is a good place to experiment. See if you can make curves as good or better
that the builtin ones, then try leaving out a dark or light color so you can see the
actual tradeoff differences.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:54 AM, amog19@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


David, Paul,


thanks for your very valuable advice - this already helped me refine my approach. Some thoughts in reply:


@ David, Paul, re K2: when doing the test chart print with QTR in calibration mode, the 100% K-channel maxes latest at around 40% and is from then on indistinguishable from the denser values. My reasoning at this point is to not leave the shadows to the K-channel but to identify a shade that pushes that max point beyond 40% (my individually perceived max point). When I look at David and Paul's K2 (also Paul's other ink set formulations) 30% seems to be the maximum possible. I conclude that this is general consensus based on testing different dilutions for K2.


@ David, re 3rd party pigment for CMY: I don't want to bust my printer / prints with bad quality pigment :-) My personal challenge is that I live in Germany and don't have access to good quality 3rd party ink products at fair prices as you have with e.g. MIS. Quality third party inks available here cost literaly about twice as much. I also don't know about a source for outdated OEM inks. Therefore my careful step-by-step spending approach. I got good shipping rates from Michael at Precisioncolors, but haven't heard from him quite some time. I hope he is doing fine.


@ David, Paul, re light C/M: thanks for the advice to use LVM and LC instead of M/C. I see in Paul's K5 article that you even do custom dilutions, e.g. 30% Magenta.


Best Regards,
Amin






--
Roy Harrington
roy@harrington.com
www.harrington.com

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