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fine tuning .acv curves

fine tuning .acv curves

2016-08-15 by stefanchristiansen@...

I still haven't found a better tool than PS to edit the .acv curves I use in QTR.

I hate those tiny curve windows and inaccurate graphs.


My profiles (for negatives) use only four channels and one shade of ink at a time, and one same curve driving those channels (I'm simplifying a bit). No partition, no crossover points.
I don't use a densitometer, don't linearize or anything like that. I look at my carbon print, I modify the PS curve and reprint...

I'm rather happy with it but would like to have a better control on either fine tuning the curves or my profiles.
No way I will edit 256x4 numbers in a .quad files, but I'm OK with manually editing 21 values.
For the moment I put anchoring points on the PS curves and move those I want to modify.
With the eyedropper tool (16-bit) I check the values on the stepwedge that is opened in PS. 5% is now 642, etc…

Please, would anyone think of a better way to fine tune .acv curves (on mac)?
You understand I'm not familiar with linearization, but could the Drop-Quad-Profile script help me?
What kind of .txt file should I use? Would it be possible to convert PS's eyedropper readings into appropriate values? For exemple, I would like my 5% patch to have a 720 value instead of 642. Is this something I could use somehow with the droplet?

Thank you very much for your attention and help.

Best regards,


Stefan Christiansen


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] fine tuning .acv curves

2016-08-15 by Roy Harrington

Not sure if this is what you really want.
But the PS .acv's are limited to 14 points and only 8-bit accuracy.
If you use the QTR driver curves (explicit x,y coordinates) you can have
many more points and 16-bit accuracy. No visual curve display though.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 4:21 AM, stefanchristiansen@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I still haven't found a better tool than PS to edit the .acv curves I use in QTR.

I hate those tiny curve windows and inaccurate graphs.


My profiles (for negatives) use only four channels and one shade of ink at a time, and one same curve driving those channels (I'm simplifying a bit). No partition, no crossover points.
I don't use a densitometer, don't linearize or anything like that. I look at my carbon print, I modify the PS curve and reprint...

I'm rather happy with it but would like to have a better control on either fine tuning the curves or my profiles.
No way I will edit 256x4 numbers in a .quad files, but I'm OK with manually editing 21 values.
For the moment I put anchoring points on the PS curves and move those I want to modify.
With the eyedropper tool (16-bit) I check the values on the stepwedge that is opened in PS. 5% is now 642, etc…

Please, would anyone think of a better way to fine tune .acv curves (on mac)?
You understand I'm not familiar with linearization, but could the Drop-Quad-Profile script help me?
What kind of .txt file should I use? Would it be possible to convert PS's eyedropper readings into appropriate values? For exemple, I would like my 5% patch to have a 720 value instead of 642. Is this something I could use somehow with the droplet?

Thank you very much for your attention and help.

Best regards,


Stefan Christiansen







--

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] fine tuning .acv curves

2016-08-15 by Stefan Christiansen

Thanks for answering unclear questions.
Not sure of what I want either, I ignore too much about linearizing with a spectro…
I guess the droplet needs real readings from a print.

I thought curves in PS with 16-bit images had a 16-bit accuracy, or at least were less destructive than with 8-bit images. I probably don't understand what accuracy means here.
I once checked that a "0;0 50;75 100;100" QTR curve and a .acv curve with similar values would create very close profiles (comparing the two profiles in QTR-CurveView or TextEdit). Then there are 2 possible L values for the 50% input in PS, and 3 possible L values for the 75% output…
So I assumed the maths behind both curves generators were the same, as well as accuracy.

QTR-CurveView offers a nice visual display of a profile's curve(s), especially in a full screen window (I already mentioned the coordinates not moving well along in an enlarged window). It's eloquent to compare two profiles with quick keyboard shortcuts switches.
It would be great if one could read x and y values (% or L) by pointing on the curve or moving a slider on one axis.
Would it be possible to make that happen some day?

Thanks.

Stefan

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] fine tuning .acv curves

2016-08-15 by Roy Harrington

Stefan,

Most of this is pretty subtle but ... you asked about accuracy.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Stefan Christiansen stefanchristiansen@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Thanks for answering unclear questions.
Not sure of what I want either, I ignore too much about linearizing with a spectro…
I guess the droplet needs real readings from a print.

I thought curves in PS with 16-bit images had a 16-bit accuracy, or at least were less destructive than with 8-bit images. I probably don't understand what accuracy means here.

PS curves are a bit of a hybrid. The points you enter are stored in 8-bit values but all the
interpolation when applied is done in 16-bit (assuming your image is 16-bit). So all the
intermediate points are nice and smooth. For the most part it's never an issue to worry about.

But for very flat or very steep curves like are sometimes used in QTR driver curves it can make
a difference. Let's take your example curve -- "0;0 50;75 100;100" -- in PS the 50 and 75 are stored
as 8-bit values. I.e. 127 and 191, which are actually 49.80% and 74.90%. If done in QTR driver curves
they would be 32767 and 49151 which are 49.999% and 74.999% -- that's the difference in 8-bit
versus 16-bit.
You also mentioned in your first post -- a 5% value of 720 vs 642 -- I assume these are .quad
numbers so 16-bit -- if they were only 8-bit they both lie between 2 and 3 (divide by 257) so mostly
indistinguishable.

But like I said at first this is pretty subtle differences. It would be hard to see it in prints.

I once checked that a "0;0 50;75 100;100" QTR curve and a .acv curve with similar values would create very close profiles (comparing the two profiles in QTR-CurveView or TextEdit). Then there are 2 possible L values for the 50% input in PS, and 3 possible L values for the 75% output…
So I assumed the maths behind both curves generators were the same, as well as accuracy.

QTR-CurveView offers a nice visual display of a profile's curve(s), especially in a full screen window (I already mentioned the coordinates not moving well along in an enlarged window). It's eloquent to compare two profiles with quick keyboard shortcuts switches.
It would be great if one could read x and y values (% or L) by pointing on the curve or moving a slider on one axis.
Would it be possible to make that happen some day?

There are no L-values in .quad's but just reading out the (x,y) percents sounds like a nice feature.

Roy

Thanks.

Stefan

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Posted by: Stefan Christiansen <stefanchristiansen@...>
------------------------------------

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Re: [QuadtoneRIP] fine tuning .acv curves

2016-08-17 by richard@...

Stephan,

There is a way you could have more control but it is going to take a little more than hand tweaking a Photoshop curve to do it—It won't much more, but it will take all that trial and error out of it. I used to go about this the same way—trial and error, hand tweaking curves, etc. Then I learned some of the math being used here and created a couple tools that make this stuff so much easier.

What are you scanning the 21-step targets with? If you don't do any contrast adjustment at the scanner level then it is pretty easy to use the eye-dropper to get measurements that can be used with my digital negative gray curve correction tool.

Here is what you need to do.

First, start using the black ink to create a single channel partitioned profile so you can use the gray curve and linearization functions. Start with a ink descriptor file like this:

##BEGIN INK DESCRIPTOR FILE

N_OF_INKS=8
DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=0

LIMIT_K=20
BOOST_K=
LIMIT_C=20
LIMIT_M=20
LIMIT_Y=20_
## These inks with such low limits are not really doing anything for you
LIMIT_LC=0.5
LIMIT_LM=0.5
LIMIT_LK=0.5
LIMIT_LLK=0.5

GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_VAL_1=100

GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=0
GRAY_SHADOW=0
##The Gray Curve is where you will enter the values from the spreadsheet
GRAY_CURVE=

N_OF_UNUSED=0

##The copy curve function below is going to use the K curve that has been linearized taking into consideration all the inks below so these need to always be used and not turned off or have the limits changed. If you do change the limits, delete the gray curve line and go through the correction curve process again.

Copy_CURVE_LK=K
Copy_ CURVE_LLK=K
Copy_ CURVE_C=K
Copy_ CURVE_M=K
Copy_ CURVE_Y=K
Copy_ CURVE_LC=K
Copy_ CURVE_LM=K



##END INK DESCRIPTOR FILE



Then print a 21-step target without any corrections to the image or to the profile.

Get the image into Photoshop and select the eyedropper tool.

In the Info pallet, change the secondary color readout to Lab and change the bit depth to 32 bits. That will give you L* values on a 0-100 scale.

Write them into new lines in a text file, save it, and drop it onto the linearize-data droplet (you do not need the Lab a or Lab b values). You will get a graph (nice) and the Lab values will be converted to Density values that can be pasted into my digital negative correction curve spreadsheet (I made this for someone who only used a densitometer and I haven’t updated it to take lab values, which is why you need to go through the whole linearize-data step, just ignore the linearize= info at the bottom of the -out.txt file).

Copy the highlighted graycurve= "NUMBERS:NUMBERS " line and paste it into the gray_curve= line in the ink descriptor file and reinstall the profile and make a print. It should be linear. if not, then you can hand tweak a Photoshop adjustment layer on the image, but you will get very predictable results from QTR curves.

--
If you don't want to go through the linearize data step I do have a 21 step Density to Lab conversion tool that that includes a single Lab to Density conversion (but it only does one value at a time right now). I still need to create a new one that converts 21 steps of Lab to Density (or update my digital negative conversion tool to use density inputs but I locked the template and misplaced the key…) I don’t have time this week, but here are dropbox links to both tools as they are now. (let me know if doesn't allow you to download these. Something might have changed with the public dropbox stuff...)



Hope that helps,
Richard Boutwell

http://www.richardboutwell.com/
http://www.bwmastery.com/


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] fine tuning .acv curves

2016-08-18 by Stefan Christiansen

Richard,


I'm not yet scanning my 21-step targets with anything, but my eyes. Sorry if I didn't make this clear in the first place.
But I do have a scanner and could make PS readings.
I find a 16-bit limitation in the Lab eyedropper settings (first or second color readout) when 8-bit makes 0-100 Lab values (that don't exactly match grayscale inverted values).
So I'm confused about your 32-bit recommandation.
I use CS4.

Some precisions:

I'm carbon printing only with multiple layers in registration, doing mostly duotone images.
The first layer is very often a color pigmented layer, so not only am I not used to density measurements and linearization, but I wouldn't know what ideal values aiming for that color layer.
These days, I'm using a light orange/braun pigment for the first layer.
Let's take the 50% stepwedge patch: what orange/braun density is seen by humans as a 50% gray equivalent?
And how should I measure color targets and get grayscale values? Scan in RGB and convert in PS?

Still taking the 50% stepwedge patch exemple, it will actually be on the final print the addition of the first orange/braun layer and the following darker layer, not necessarily a black pigment layer, eventually a dark red/braun one.
The lightest second layer values may start about the 20% final print values. But 30% is also possible if I make a darker first layer! This is my decision, a subjective aesthetic choice…
What references do I have but ones I have to build myself? That means trial and error, defining my own ideal values.

Scanning a final print wouldn't tell me about each of the three negatives required. I should measure on each layer, before they are unified on paper.
Each layer is translucent pigmented gelatin on a transparent PET support.
Again, how can I avoid building my own ideal values when scanning transparent media, not a print on paper?

Right now, fine tuning the 0-5% values of my first carbon layer is my #1 concern.
QTR curves seem the best option so far, since one can write curve values between 95 and 100%, including decimal places, which can't be done in PS.
I will need more time to learn and find out if I can use your tools somehow, replacing the ideal values with mine, if you find that key back!

Many thanks.


Stefan

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