Ink Separation
2017-03-05 by ian@...
When building a new curve for a paper sock which is not shipped with QTR, how important is it to go through the process of Ink Separation when using one of the raw curves as a starting point.
Thread
Ink Separation
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-06 by sanking@...
I don't believe going through the process of printing an ink separation file would enhance your results very much if you are printing with the Epson K3 inks and using a standard type paper similar to the ones in the profile folder for your printer. What I would suggest instead in this case is to just use the basic profile of the profile that is most like the paper you would like to print with, and create a new profile by linearizing it. This is kind of a one step process and can vastly improve results.
In any event, if what you are after is "neutral tone" prints the process is more complicated because you are going to have to use some of the color inks, cyan or magenta, to blend in with the warm Epson inks, which are mostly carbon black. Carbon black by nature is quite warm in tone and the only way to cool it down is by blending in cyan, or a mixture of cyan and magenta in toning.
The only other alternative is to replace the Epson ink set with a third party all gray ink set, but even most of these sets are based on carbon black, and warm in tone. The only one that is a tad more neutral is eboni, but even it is warm in tone.
Sandy
In any event, if what you are after is "neutral tone" prints the process is more complicated because you are going to have to use some of the color inks, cyan or magenta, to blend in with the warm Epson inks, which are mostly carbon black. Carbon black by nature is quite warm in tone and the only way to cool it down is by blending in cyan, or a mixture of cyan and magenta in toning.
The only other alternative is to replace the Epson ink set with a third party all gray ink set, but even most of these sets are based on carbon black, and warm in tone. The only one that is a tad more neutral is eboni, but even it is warm in tone.
Sandy
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-06 by ian@...
Thanks for the reply Sandy.
At this stage, a more neutral print is what I was aiming for.
It wasn't until I tried a print made with demo version Colorbyte ImagePrint that I realised just how warm my ABW looks which had put me on a mission to try and work out why.
I don't think my color vision is good enough to start blending cyan and magenta, I tried that but I was told the image has gone from warm to a pinkish colour.
Looks as though this is something I am just going to have to accept and there may not be a problem with my printer as first suspected.
Ian
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-06 by brian_downunda@...
> At this stage, a more neutral print is what I was aiming for.
In an earlier thread I gave you a relatively easy way to achieve that - curve blending.
All the ABW prints that I've seen from a 3880 using the allegedly neutral toning setting have been cool rather than warm. Perhaps your printer is different, although if IP results in neutral prints then perhaps not.
In an earlier thread I gave you a relatively easy way to achieve that - curve blending.
>It wasn't until I tried a print made with demo version Colorbyte ImagePrint that I realised just how warm my ABW looks which had put me on a mission to try and work out why.
All the ABW prints that I've seen from a 3880 using the allegedly neutral toning setting have been cool rather than warm. Perhaps your printer is different, although if IP results in neutral prints then perhaps not.
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-06 by ian@...
In an earlier thread I gave you a relatively easy way to achieve that - curve blending.
This has certainly removed the warmth I can see but I have been told it now looks pinkish
The reason why I am on a mission to get this right is because I have poor colour vision (red/green) colour blind so unless the shift is strong, I am unable to see any changes in hue.
This is why I need a good starting point to work from, if the option says neutral, then I need it to be as neutral as possible especially if I am selling neutral prints.
I think I need to to find some UK based who has a 3880 and I can send a test print to let them evaluate it next to theirs with their eyes
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-06 by brian_downunda@...
In that case what you are trying to do is quite difficult. The percentages I gave you were only approximate and would need a little trial and error to get right, but in my view it is easier to do that than to play with the quantity of toning inks used in the neutral curve. I don't understand is the comment about "pinkish". I've never seen that in any of my prints. IP may be the simple (but expensive) solution in your situation.
Or alternatively, try printing a monochrome image using a colour profile created for the paper in question on your printer, and printed through the Epson driver. The usual advice is not to do this because it uses too much of the colour inks, but on the few occasions that I've tried it I've got remarkably neutral prints.
---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <ian@...> wrote :
Or alternatively, try printing a monochrome image using a colour profile created for the paper in question on your printer, and printed through the Epson driver. The usual advice is not to do this because it uses too much of the colour inks, but on the few occasions that I've tried it I've got remarkably neutral prints.
---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <ian@...> wrote :
In an earlier thread I gave you a relatively easy way to achieve that - curve blending.
This has certainly removed the warmth I can see but I have been told it now looks pinkish
The reason why I am on a mission to get this right is because I have poor colour vision (red/green) colour blind so unless the shift is strong, I am unable to see any changes in hue.
This is why I need a good starting point to work from, if the option says neutral, then I need it to be as neutral as possible especially if I am selling neutral prints.
I think I need to to find some UK based who has a 3880 and I can send a test print to let them evaluate it next to theirs with their eyes
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-06 by sanking@...
I am sorry to say, but there is magic bullet here. The warm tone you describe for your 3880 is absolutely normal for the ink set, and is not very different from that of the P800.
If you have poor color vision I would recommend staying away from toning as it would be very easy to create a color that would look odd to others.
Why not just accept the beauty of warm black? Througout the history of photograhy phtographic prints have rarely been neutral black in tone, in fact that is something more associated with photographs reproduced in books than with original work. Silver prints were nearly always toned for permanence, and the toning often shifted the silver image even more away from neutral. For examp, sepia, brown toning, selenium, gold toning all changed the actual color of silver gelaitn prints. And people love the warm brown color of platinum/palladium prints, and the unique color os gold toned salted paper and albumen prints, and so on and so on.
Sandy
If you have poor color vision I would recommend staying away from toning as it would be very easy to create a color that would look odd to others.
Why not just accept the beauty of warm black? Througout the history of photograhy phtographic prints have rarely been neutral black in tone, in fact that is something more associated with photographs reproduced in books than with original work. Silver prints were nearly always toned for permanence, and the toning often shifted the silver image even more away from neutral. For examp, sepia, brown toning, selenium, gold toning all changed the actual color of silver gelaitn prints. And people love the warm brown color of platinum/palladium prints, and the unique color os gold toned salted paper and albumen prints, and so on and so on.
Sandy
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by donsbryant@...
>
Or alternatively, try printing a monochrome image using a colour profile created for the paper in question on your printer, and printed through the Epson driver. The usual advice is not to do this because it uses too much of the colour inks, but on the few occasions that I've tried it I've got remarkably neutral prints.>
This has been my experience as well.
One can look at existing neutral curve profiles to get a sense of what ink settings could be used to print neutral tones using QTR. IMO, making an ink separation test isn't a bad idea rather than depending upon settings of other existing curve profiles.
Don Bryant
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by brian_downunda@...
I'm with you Sandy. I like that look too, i.e. the slight warmth of the prints that you get from the QTR neutral curves. It's a more subtle version of the Piezography Special Edition look, which I also like, a lot, at least on matte. If I'm printing my own images that's how they come and you either like it or lump it.
However it's a different story when you're providing a print service to others. I think that's Ian's problem, isn't it? I've had it myself several times recently - people want neutral prints of their images. I was loathe to use ABW, and in any case it was too cool on my printer. I was also loathe to print using a colour profile, given the general lack of acceptance of that approach amongst the serious B&W crowd. I didn't have the time to start playing with the toning inks, so I blended curves instead.
---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <sanking@...> wrote :
Why not just accept the beauty of warm black? Througout the history of photograhy phtographic prints have rarely been neutral black in tone, in fact that is something more associated with photographs reproduced in books than with original work. Silver prints were nearly always toned for permanence, and the toning often shifted the silver image even more away from neutral. For examp, sepia, brown toning, selenium, gold toning all changed the actual color of silver gelaitn prints. And people love the warm brown color of platinum/palladium prints, and the unique color os gold toned salted paper and albumen prints, and so on and so on.
However it's a different story when you're providing a print service to others. I think that's Ian's problem, isn't it? I've had it myself several times recently - people want neutral prints of their images. I was loathe to use ABW, and in any case it was too cool on my printer. I was also loathe to print using a colour profile, given the general lack of acceptance of that approach amongst the serious B&W crowd. I didn't have the time to start playing with the toning inks, so I blended curves instead.
---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <sanking@...> wrote :
Why not just accept the beauty of warm black? Througout the history of photograhy phtographic prints have rarely been neutral black in tone, in fact that is something more associated with photographs reproduced in books than with original work. Silver prints were nearly always toned for permanence, and the toning often shifted the silver image even more away from neutral. For examp, sepia, brown toning, selenium, gold toning all changed the actual color of silver gelaitn prints. And people love the warm brown color of platinum/palladium prints, and the unique color os gold toned salted paper and albumen prints, and so on and so on.
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by ian@...
I don't understand is the comment about "pinkish". I've never seen that in any of my prints.
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After asking the person to take another serious look, the word pink has changed to Magenta.
IP may be the simple (but expensive) solution in your situation.
I suppose if I was running some sore of highly profitable business selling prints, the cost of IP would not play a factor but just selling the odd print here and there, the cost like many is to high to justify.
Why not just accept the beauty of warm black?
I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this issue for me and help me understand why this is happening.I think this is something I am going to have to do.
Its interesting though that 10 years ago, I gave up colour work because of the inability to see colours during the editing stage, I have lost count how many times I have wound up with a Magenta sky so I made the decision concentrate on black and white. Now OI am starting to print my work, the colour blindness has returned to plague me.
One again, thanks to all and I apologise if I seemed to have hammered this topic but now I have a much better understanding on the topic especially the workings of QTR
Ian
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by brian_downunda@...
Something still doesn't sound right here. My suggestion was to blend the neutral and cool curves in certain proportions to cool off the mild warmth of the neutral curve. I honestly can't see how that can result in a magenta cast. The cool curves are very cool, which is why I suggested that you blend in only around 15%.
You are using the 3880 curves as shipped aren't you? There aren't any modifications that slipped in while you were experimenting are there? You are using OEM inks and not any third party ones?
---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <ian@...> wrote :
You are using the 3880 curves as shipped aren't you? There aren't any modifications that slipped in while you were experimenting are there? You are using OEM inks and not any third party ones?
---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <ian@...> wrote :
I don't understand is the comment about "pinkish". I've never seen that in any of my prints.
Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by ian@...
You are using the 3880 curves as shipped aren't you?
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Yes
There aren't any modifications that slipped in while you were experimenting are there?
hmm, will go back and check
You are using OEM inks and not any third party ones?
I was using a 3rd party LLK ink but have since changed that back to OEM. I was wondering if there was some residue of the 3rd party LLK left in the lines
Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by Paul Roark
The dedicated B&W inkset approach I use and advocate is based on my observation that most people cannot profile a system that uses more than a single bluish "toner" to cool the naturally warm carbon.
The first few paragraphs of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ explain the "Variable tone" B&W approach. The range of the inksets are from carbon warm to neutral to cool; no weird colors can be made because the toner "hare wires" the color blend.
FWIW,
Paul
RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by Nigel Richards
Hi, Just to put my six pence worth in, yes I am in the UK….. I use an R2880 with Black, LK and LLK filled with Epson Ecotank bulk black pigment ink T7741, I think it is carbon based and LK and LLK were diluted with one of Paul’s formulas, generic colour pigment in the rest of the carts. On this particular printer I am using Epson drivers and ABW (QTR is used on another Epson A3 printer) . Using just the three blacks with no toner the results are very warm – yes almost magenta. So with a warm print I scanned it and examined the result in Photoshop, having ascertained how much off neutral it was I then tried toning in ABW, I ended up with a very neutral monochrome print with -32 horizontal and 0 vertical in the advanced settings color controls. This gave a good result on Jessops heavyweight matt paper which is my favourite. Epson Archival Matt was even warmer! Don’t know if this helps. Cheers Nigel in Cheshire PS. Boots the Chemist stock Glycerine in 200mm bottles in the UK.
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From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 07 March 2017 15:01 To: QTR-Forum Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Ink Separation The dedicated B&W inkset approach I use and advocate is based on my observation that most people cannot profile a system that uses more than a single bluish "toner" to cool the naturally warm carbon. The first few paragraphs of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ explain the "Variable tone" B&W approach. The range of the inksets are from carbon warm to neutral to cool; no weird colors can be made because the toner "hare wires" the color blend. FWIW, Paul www.PaulRoark.com
RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Ink Separation
2017-03-07 by ian@...
Epson Archival Matt was even warmer!
Interesting Nigel as this is the paper I have been testing mainly as it relatively low cost.
The dedicated B&W inkset approach I use and advocate is based on my observation that most people cannot profile a system that uses more than a single bluish "toner" to cool the naturally warm carbon.
Thanks Paul, I will be reading this shortly