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Thread

Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-10 by jthacker@...

There are three options for printing in Print Color Management: Print Tool Managed; No Color Management; and Print Driver Managed. Can someone explain the option Print Driver Managed? How does if differ from No Color Management and Print Tool Managed.

I am using the Print Tool a lot for printing digital negatives. Some how I started using Print Drive Managed --- assuming this was referring the curves I've made. My printers are Quad3880 UC, Quad3800K7, and Quad7800 UC (but is has an all gray ink set installed - this ink set is used for making negatives for carbon transfer and other alt processes).

Any feedback greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-10 by Myron Gochnauer

If you're using a Mac and Quad3880 is your chosen printer...

The only difference in what you see on the computer for the three options is that when you choose "Print-Tool Managed" you have access to the choices for ICC profiles, intent, 16/8 bit, etc. With the other types of management these are not available. For all three methods the same QTR printing dialogue options are available.

The implication of this is that:

1) with Print-Tool-Managed color management you can apply an ICC profile before (or in combination with) the QTR curves available in the QTR print dialogue, while

2) with the other two color management schemes the QTR driver receives the images without any profiling, and applies the chosen curves, etc. to that not-profiled image.

I have not done tests that would verify or falsify these implications. (Or perhaps the answer is somewhere in the documentation that I don't have at hand.)

Myron

On Apr 10, 2018, at 12:34 PM, jthacker@pacbell.net [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-10 by jthacker@...

Myron, Thanks much. The difference I see between No Color Management and Print Driver Management is in the Paper & Print Settings dialog. Under Color Matching, the No Color Management choices are grayed out as one would expect. The Print Driver Managed shows the QTR as selected. So, QTR is managing the color.

I did a quick check of the difference in the output for my all gray ink printer and found no difference in the ink densities (as measured using a UV transmission densitometer). I'll also ran a check using the Quad3880 UC printer, no difference in the ink densities.

So, no difference in the negative densities for my printing processes.

Cheers,
John

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-11 by Myron Gochnauer

I did a quick check of the difference in the output for my all gray ink printer and found no difference in the ink densities (as measured using a UV transmission densitometer). I'll also ran a check using the Quad3880 UC printer, no difference in the ink densities.
So, no difference in the negative densities for my printing processes.

That is consistent with my 'sense' of what happens for me as well, but I can't remember testing it.

If this bears up to your further tests (I expect it will), perhaps you/we should suggest that Print-Tool be modified to eliminate the confusion we've had.

I don't know what is 'under the hood' of Print-Tool, but it would seem to be a pretty simple thing to add a fourth option to the Print Color Management list: QuadToneRIP printing (or something like that). It could be a dummy choice, simply being another way of choosing "No Color Management".

Having a "QuadToneRIP printing" choice would provide an unambiguously correct choice for QTR printers/printing (even though it would not be the only workable choice). It wouldn't matter that it was essentially identical in result to other choices, since the point would be certainty for the user.

As the menus currently appear, I remain convinced that the availability of "Print-Tool Managed" implies that the chosen ICC profile will be applied to the image file, whatever the printer might do (or not do). Your tests are showing that this implication is false. ...and false implications just generate needless confusion for users.

Myron

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-11 by forums@walkerblackwell.com

In response to the last comment,

There is long industry standard nomenclature for this going back almost 2 decades now (in all output inkjet printing).

1. Application Managed (aka Print-Tool managed)
2. No Color Management
3. Printer Manages Colors (or Print Driver Managed, etc, etc).

Changing these from the norm will confuse people even more. It was damaging enough when Mac/Adobe decided to get rid of “No Color Management.” The reason for the very existence of Print-Tool is to get that feature back. PT is not just for QTR either. It’s seperate.

Also,

Choosing a profile (Print-Tool Managed) effects the output by converting to the profile chosen. If you choose something like AdobeRGB as your output profile it may not be different output than the other options, but most profiles WILL change the output. Please do not assume that somehow this option does not work. It does and has since the beginning.

Best,
Walker

> On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:07 AM, Myron Gochnauer goch@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> I did a quick check of the difference in the output for my all gray ink printer and found no difference in the ink densities (as measured using a UV transmission densitometer). I'll also ran a check using the Quad3880 UC printer, no difference in the ink densities.
>> So, no difference in the negative densities for my printing processes.
> 
> 
> That is consistent with my 'sense' of what happens for me as well, but I can't remember testing it.
> 
> If this bears up to your further tests (I expect it will), perhaps you/we should suggest that Print-Tool be modified to eliminate the confusion we've had.
> 
> I don't know what is 'under the hood' of Print-Tool, but it would seem to be a pretty simple thing to add afourth option to the Print Color Management list:  QuadToneRIP printing (or something like that). It could be a dummy choice, simply being another way of choosing "No Color Management".
> 
> Having a "QuadToneRIP printing" choice would provide an unambiguously correct choice for QTR printers/printing (even though it would not be the only workable choice).  It wouldn't matter that it was essentially identical in result to other choices, since the point would be certainty for the user.
> 
> As the menus currently appear, I remain convinced that the availability of "Print-Tool Managed" implies that the chosen ICC profile will be applied to the image file, whatever the printer might do (or not do). Your tests are showing that this implication is false.  ...and false implications just generate needless confusion for users.
> 
> Myron
> 
> 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-11 by Mick Sang

Hello,



I am relatively new to this system. But, it occurs to me that when we select QuadTone RIP as our printer, we have the 3 options available which allow for a) the system to manage the result which allows colour management from the driver, b) no colour management which is self-explanatory and would be used for Calibration or c) the invitation for a paper/printer profile to play a part in the process. It’s the same as the offerings in Photoshop except PS no longer offers No Colour Management.



Paul

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of "Myron Gochnauer goch@unb..ca [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 8:07 AM
To: QTR group group <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

I did a quick check of the difference in the output for my all gray ink printer and found no difference in the ink densities (as measured using a UV transmission densitometer). I'll also ran a check using the Quad3880 UC printer, no difference in the ink densities.

So, no difference in the negative densities for my printing processes.

That is consistent with my 'sense' of what happens for me as well, but I can't remember testing it.

If this bears up to your further tests (I expect it will), perhaps you/we should suggest that Print-Tool be modified to eliminate the confusion we've had.

I don't know what is 'under the hood' of Print-Tool, but it would seem to be a pretty simple thing to add a fourth option to the Print Color Management list:  QuadToneRIP printing (or something like that). It could be a dummy choice, simply being another way of choosing "No Color Management".

Having a "QuadToneRIP printing" choice would provide an unambiguously correct choice for QTR printers/printing (even though it would not be the only workable choice).  It wouldn't matter that it was essentially identical in result to other choices, since the point would be certainty for the user.

As the menus currently appear, I remain convinced that the availability of "Print-Tool Managed" implies that the chosen ICC profile will be applied to the image file, whatever the printer might do (or not do). Your tests are showing that this implication is false..  ...and false implications just generate needless confusion for users.

Myron

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-11 by Mick Sang

Well said. I agree.



Paul

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of "'forums@...' forums@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 8:21 AM
To: "QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

In response to the last comment,

There is long industry standard nomenclature for this going back almost 2 decades now (in all output inkjet printing).

1. Application Managed (aka Print-Tool managed)
2. No Color Management
3. Printer Manages Colors (or Print Driver Managed, etc, etc).

Changing these from the norm will confuse people even more. It was damaging enough when Mac/Adobe decided to get rid of “No Color Management.” The reason for the very existence of Print-Tool is to get that feature back. PT is not just for QTR either. It’s seperate.

Also,

Choosing a profile (Print-Tool Managed) effects the output by converting to the profile chosen. If you choose something like AdobeRGB as your output profile it may not be different output than the other options, but most profiles WILL change the output. Please do not assume that somehow this option does not work. It does and has since the beginning.

Best,
Walker

> On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:07 AM, Myron Gochnauer goch@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I did a quick check of the difference in the output for my all gray ink printer and found no difference in the ink densities (as measured using a UV transmission densitometer). I'll also ran a check using the Quad3880 UC printer, no difference in the ink densities.
>> So, no difference in the negative densities for my printing processes.
>
>
> That is consistent with my 'sense' of what happens for me as well, but I can't remember testing it.
>
> If this bears up to your further tests (I expect it will), perhaps you/we should suggest that Print-Tool be modified to eliminate the confusion we've had.
>
> I don't know what is 'under the hood' of Print-Tool, but it would seem to be a pretty simple thing to add afourth option to the Print Color Management list: QuadToneRIP printing (or something like that). It could be a dummy choice, simply being another way of choosing "No Color Management".
>
> Having a "QuadToneRIP printing" choice would provide an unambiguously correct choice for QTR printers/printing (even though it would not be the only workable choice). It wouldn't matter that it was essentially identical in result to other choices, since the point would be certainty for the user.
>
> As the menus currently appear, I remain convinced that the availability of "Print-Tool Managed" implies that the chosen ICC profile will be applied to the image file, whatever the printer might do (or not do). Your tests are showing that this implication is false. ...and false implications just generate needless confusion for users.
>
> Myron
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

2018-04-12 by John Thacker

To be clear about the check I made: it was comparing “No color Management” with “Print Driver Managed”. I did not test the “Print Tool Managed” which I understand  is much the same as “PhotoShop Manages Color” with and icc.

Cheers,

John

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@...m] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:51 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

Hello,

I am relatively new to this system. But, it occurs to me that when we select QuadTone RIP as our printer, we have the 3 options available which allow for a) the system to manage the result which allows colour management from the driver, b) no colour management which is self-explanatory and would be used for Calibration or c) the invitation for a paper/printer profile to play a part in the process. It’s the same as the offerings in Photoshop except PS no longer offers No Colour Management.

Paul

From: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> > on behalf of "Myron Gochnauer goch@... <mailto:goch@...>  [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> >
Reply-To: <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 8:07 AM
To: QTR group group <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

I did a quick check of the difference in the output for my all gray ink printer and found no difference in the ink densities (as measured using a UV transmission densitometer). I'll also ran a check using the Quad3880 UC printer, no difference in the ink densities.

So, no difference in the negative densities for my printing processes.

That is consistent with my 'sense' of what happens for me as well, but I can't remember testing it.

If this bears up to your further tests (I expect it will), perhaps you/we should suggest that Print-Tool be modified to eliminate the confusion we've had.  

I don't know what is 'under the hood' of Print-Tool, but it would seem to be a pretty simple thing to add a fourth option to the Print Color Management list:  QuadToneRIP printing (or something like that). It could be a dummy choice, simply being another way of choosing "No Color Management".

Having a "QuadToneRIP printing" choice would provide an unambiguously correct choice for QTR printers/printing (even though it would not be the only workable choice).  It wouldn't matter that it was essentially identical in result to other choices, since the point would be certainty for the user.

As the menus currently appear, I remain convinced that the availability of "Print-Tool Managed" implies that the chosen ICC profile will be applied to the image file, whatever the printer might do (or not do). Your tests are showing that this implication is false.  ...and false implications just generate needless confusion for users.

Myron

QTR-Quadtone RIP

Color Print Options in Print Tool

Color Print Options in Print Tool

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Color Print Options in Print Tool

Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Color Print Options in Print Tool

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