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How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?

How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?

2006-05-26 by prof_mgt551

I just started using QTR with an Epson 2200. I downloaded and
installed the UCpk-IlfordSmoothPearl curves that Tom has so generously
provided. I made a test print using the Northlight Images standard
test file that I first converted in Photoshop to the QTR-Gray Photo
Paper space (using the icc file located in the QuadToneRip ICC
folder). I am  using the Photo black ink and a Windows XP machine.

QTR Settings: 80 cool 20 warm, ink adj 0, gamma adj 0
The print overall looks good except the deep shadows start losing
detail. Step 100 measures L 5.40, step 95 measures only L 6.34. From
step 90 and on, the L value measures much more separation between each
step and you can clearly see the steps.

What options are there for opening up the deep shadow between step 100
and step 95. The rest of the gray scale looks pretty good and the
tonality is close to what I see when viewing in Photoshop. I don't
want to adjust the ink level since solid black is nice and deep. I
don't want to use the gamma slider and open up the shadow at the
expense of the mid-tone.

Are there any other tools in QTR that could be used to make this
adjustment or modify the curve?

Thanks for your help.

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?

2006-05-26 by Tom Moore

Hi

I think your problem might originate from your test file/methodology.  The
Northlight step wedge I found at their website was test-ramp.tif. If that's
the file you used, you will note that it is an RGB file. To my eye, the
shadows in that image look compressed to start with. That said, since test
file is (supposedly) ready for printing, you should not "Convert" it to
QTR-Gray- Photo Paper profile. You should either print it as is or "Assign"
the QTR-Gray Photo Paper. That will change its appearance on the monitor,
but not the data. Actually, you can't assign the QTR-Gray-Photo paper
because the file is RGB, but you can assign the QTR-RGB-Photo Paper profile
and convert to QTR-Gray Photo Paper.

You might want to read Roy's notes in gray-readme.doc in the QuadtoneRIP\ICC
folder.

In response to the remainder of your question, to adjust the appearance of
your prints you can:
1.	use the quick but ad-hoc approach of modifying the Shadow and Gamma
sliders in QTR before printing.
2. Since you can measure L*, you could modify the curves and re-linearize
using the Curve Creation tools.
3. Finally you can print a step wedge (I suggest Roy's 21step or 51step
files) and use the QTR-Create-ICC tool to create an ICC profile for your
curve/printer/ink/paper combination and use that to preview your image in
PS.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of prof_mgt551
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 10:32 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?
> 
> I just started using QTR with an Epson 2200. I downloaded and
> installed the UCpk-IlfordSmoothPearl curves that Tom has so generously
> provided. I made a test print using the Northlight Images standard
> test file that I first converted in Photoshop to the QTR-Gray Photo
> Paper space (using the icc file located in the QuadToneRip ICC
> folder). I am  using the Photo black ink and a Windows XP machine.
> 
> QTR Settings: 80 cool 20 warm, ink adj 0, gamma adj 0
> The print overall looks good except the deep shadows start losing
> detail. Step 100 measures L 5.40, step 95 measures only L 6.34. From
> step 90 and on, the L value measures much more separation between each
> step and you can clearly see the steps.
> 
> What options are there for opening up the deep shadow between step 100
> and step 95. The rest of the gray scale looks pretty good and the
> tonality is close to what I see when viewing in Photoshop. I don't
> want to adjust the ink level since solid black is nice and deep. I
> don't want to use the gamma slider and open up the shadow at the
> expense of the mid-tone.
> 
> Are there any other tools in QTR that could be used to make this
> adjustment or modify the curve?
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
...

Re: How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?

2006-05-26 by prof_mgt551

Tom

Thanks for your response. I should have been more precise in my
description of the test file that I used. I am using the bwtest file
from North Lights images, which is in a gray gamma 2.2 space. I
converted it to the QTR-Gray Photo space and saved as a tiff prior to
printing, based upon Roy's Windows XP recommendation in the
gray-readme.doc.

I also printed out the 21 step wedge, read the step densities,
recorded them in a tab delimited file and used the QTR-Create-ICC tool
found in the eye-one folder to create a new ICC profile. I then took
the original bwtest file, in gray gamma 2.2 space, converted it to
this new ICC profile space, saved as a tiff and printed in QTR. I also
reprinted the 21 step wedge, also after converting it to the new ICC
profile. The results were interesting. The bwtest file still didn't
show enough deep shadow detail. But when I measured the new ICC
profiled 21 step wedge print, plotted the L values, there is a
definite improvement in the linearity. Plotted on a graph the new ICC
profile converted 21 step wedge shows almost a straight line compared
to a slightly bowed line when the Gray Photo space was used. By
straight, I mean that the plot points touch either directly on or the
bottom or top edge of a straight line. 

The improvement I am looking for is very subtle. I can still see
slightly more deep shadow detail on my monitor than in the new print.

Perhaps there is something wrong in my procedure. My display is
calibrated and profiled. Maybe I should use the 51 step scale. I
wonder if the QTR-Create-ICC tool will work with 51 steps. The sample
files are set up with 21 steps.

Appreciate any thoughts you or other forum members might have. Thanks
for making the Ilford Pearl curve available. 

Ken

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
> 
> I think your problem might originate from your test
file/methodology.  The
> Northlight step wedge I found at their website was test-ramp.tif. If
that's
> the file you used, you will note that it is an RGB file. To my eye, the
> shadows in that image look compressed to start with. That said,
since test
> file is (supposedly) ready for printing, you should not "Convert" it to
> QTR-Gray- Photo Paper profile. You should either print it as is or
"Assign"
> the QTR-Gray Photo Paper. That will change its appearance on the
monitor,
> but not the data. Actually, you can't assign the QTR-Gray-Photo paper
> because the file is RGB, but you can assign the QTR-RGB-Photo Paper
profile
> and convert to QTR-Gray Photo Paper.
> 
> You might want to read Roy's notes in gray-readme.doc in the
QuadtoneRIP\ICC
> folder.
> 
> In response to the remainder of your question, to adjust the
appearance of
> your prints you can:
> 1.	use the quick but ad-hoc approach of modifying the Shadow and Gamma
> sliders in QTR before printing.
> 2. Since you can measure L*, you could modify the curves and
re-linearize
> using the Curve Creation tools.
> 3. Finally you can print a step wedge (I suggest Roy's 21step or 51step
> files) and use the QTR-Create-ICC tool to create an ICC profile for your
> curve/printer/ink/paper combination and use that to preview your
image in
> PS.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Behalf Of prof_mgt551
> > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 10:32 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?
> > 
> > I just started using QTR with an Epson 2200. I downloaded and
> > installed the UCpk-IlfordSmoothPearl curves that Tom has so generously
> > provided. I made a test print using the Northlight Images standard
> > test file that I first converted in Photoshop to the QTR-Gray Photo
> > Paper space (using the icc file located in the QuadToneRip ICC
> > folder). I am  using the Photo black ink and a Windows XP machine.
> > 
> > QTR Settings: 80 cool 20 warm, ink adj 0, gamma adj 0
> > The print overall looks good except the deep shadows start losing
> > detail. Step 100 measures L 5.40, step 95 measures only L 6.34. From
> > step 90 and on, the L value measures much more separation between each
> > step and you can clearly see the steps.
> > 
> > What options are there for opening up the deep shadow between step 100
> > and step 95. The rest of the gray scale looks pretty good and the
> > tonality is close to what I see when viewing in Photoshop. I don't
> > want to adjust the ink level since solid black is nice and deep. I
> > don't want to use the gamma slider and open up the shadow at the
> > expense of the mid-tone.
> > 
> > Are there any other tools in QTR that could be used to make this
> > adjustment or modify the curve?
> > 
> > Thanks for your help.
> > 
> ...
>

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?

2006-05-26 by Tom Moore

Ken

I checked out the gray gamma 2.2 test image. It is interesting (to me
anyway) that after Converting to Qtr-gray-photo paper profile the 95% step
is actually 98%k and the 90% step is 95%k. So the conversion process is
definitely compressing the shadows. However, when I created the curve, I
used the 21 step image (over a year ago now, so my memory is vague). That
means that the process did not empirically verify any linearity between 95%
and 100%. One might assume that the curve would be linear between measured
steps, but that assumption gets riskier as the steps get larger. Your
suggestion to try the 51 step test image might be the answer.

The QTR-Create-ICC utility will work with 51 or almost any number of steps.

Another point I forgot to mention in my first response is that there may be
printer variations at play here. In looking at my notes from the creation of
the ISP curve, the dmax I achieved was around 2.17. Your measured dmax is
around 2.22. Given, as you state, the effect you seeing is subtle, this may
also be a factor. 

If you do decide to re-linearize the curves or create an ICC using the 51
step file it would be useful for others to update the curves I posted. If
you provide them to me I'll do that.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of prof_mgt551
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:07 AM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com


...

> Perhaps there is something wrong in my procedure. My display is
> calibrated and profiled. Maybe I should use the 51 step scale. I
> wonder if the QTR-Create-ICC tool will work with 51 steps. The sample
> files are set up with 21 steps.
> 
> Appreciate any thoughts you or other forum members might have. Thanks
> for making the Ilford Pearl curve available.
> 
> Ken

...

Re: How to adjust Ilford Pearl Curve?

2006-06-01 by prof_mgt551

Tom,

The compression in the two steps is interesting. Also, I think you are
right, printer variation probably accounts for different output
results. I assume that QTR curves are specific to a particular printer
just as ICC printer space profiles are specific to a particular printer.

I had a client that wanted B&W prints so I went ahead and converted
the files to my Ilford Smooth Pearl ICC profile and used your Ilford
Smooth Pearl curves in QTR. It was important that the client got a
close screen match with the prints, so I adjusted the gamma slider in
QTR to a -7, which gave a better screen match. We were pleased with
the results. The prints looked very close to silver emulsion prints.
But I think they could still be better. 

I feel that I may be loosing some image quality by having to use the
gamma slider in QTR. But maybe my screen, even though its calibrated,
is the reason I don't get a close screen to print match? QTR and B&W
digital printing is new for me. I feel comfortable with color and
creating color ICC profiles, but I don't feel that I have a handle on
QTR and curves. When I get a chance I may go ahead and try using a 51
step gray scale to re-linearize the curves.

Kodak sent me samples of their professional lustre inkjet paper. I
printed a test using the same ICC space and curves that I used for the
Ilford Smooth Pearl. The results were close to the Ilford paper. The
Kodak paper is slightly whiter but not quite as heavy as the Ilford
Smooth Pearl. DMax was close.

Best wishes,

Ken

 
--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> Ken
> 
> I checked out the gray gamma 2.2 test image. It is interesting (to me
> anyway) that after Converting to Qtr-gray-photo paper profile the
95% step
> is actually 98%k and the 90% step is 95%k. So the conversion process is
> definitely compressing the shadows. However, when I created the curve, I
> used the 21 step image (over a year ago now, so my memory is vague).
That
> means that the process did not empirically verify any linearity
between 95%
> and 100%. One might assume that the curve would be linear between
measured
> steps, but that assumption gets riskier as the steps get larger. Your
> suggestion to try the 51 step test image might be the answer.
> 
> The QTR-Create-ICC utility will work with 51 or almost any number of
steps.
> 
> Another point I forgot to mention in my first response is that there
may be
> printer variations at play here. In looking at my notes from the
creation of
> the ISP curve, the dmax I achieved was around 2.17. Your measured
dmax is
> around 2.22. Given, as you state, the effect you seeing is subtle,
this may
> also be a factor. 
> 
> If you do decide to re-linearize the curves or create an ICC using
the 51
> step file it would be useful for others to update the curves I
posted. If
> you provide them to me I'll do that.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Behalf Of prof_mgt551
> > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:07 AM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> > Perhaps there is something wrong in my procedure. My display is
> > calibrated and profiled. Maybe I should use the 51 step scale. I
> > wonder if the QTR-Create-ICC tool will work with 51 steps. The sample
> > files are set up with 21 steps.
> > 
> > Appreciate any thoughts you or other forum members might have. Thanks
> > for making the Ilford Pearl curve available.
> > 
> > Ken
> 
> ...
>

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