QTR-Quadtone RIP

Have UT-7 inks in an Epson 2200 on a Dell Workstation with QTR 
2.4.3.10.

Prints fine using curves packaged with QTR.  However, I am attempting 
to create curves for a couple of odd-ball papers (cheap).

Tom Moore's User Guide is quite instructive.  However, he does not 
mention utility of the Toner and Toner2 curves that one may specify 
in the process of accommodating a particular paper. The Help file 
states "You can setup two different toner curves for toner ink 
control.  The toner curves are applied to the inks by using the Toner 
and Toner2 ink use selections."  A search of past messages and the 
data base was fruitless; plenty of references to "split toning" if 
only that could be my problem.

As a newbie I may well be overlooking the obvious, but I have not 
found the means for making an "ink use selection".  I have set 
Highlight, Shadow, and Gamma values to extremes, but see no effect on 
a 21-step wedge print.

Can someone clue me in?

You don't state which paper types, matte or glossy. Have you looked at any
existing examples of curves that come with qtr? You can do that by loading
in the qidf file in the Curve Creation window. They are in:
     C:/program files/quadtonerip/profiles/2200-ut7
Use the EEM curve as an example for a matte paper. Use Ilford Smooth Pearl
as an example of a glossy paper. The inks are used differently for the 2
types of paper.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ink use selection".

I found looking at existing curves a very useful way to get started.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of xylonic2000
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:08 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Toner Curve Confusion
> 
> Have UT-7 inks in an Epson 2200 on a Dell Workstation with QTR
> 2.4.3.10.
> 
> Prints fine using curves packaged with QTR.  However, I am attempting
> to create curves for a couple of odd-ball papers (cheap).
> 
> Tom Moore's User Guide is quite instructive.  However, he does not
> mention utility of the Toner and Toner2 curves that one may specify
> in the process of accommodating a particular paper. The Help file
> states "You can setup two different toner curves for toner ink
> control.  The toner curves are applied to the inks by using the Toner
> and Toner2 ink use selections."  A search of past messages and the
> data base was fruitless; plenty of references to "split toning" if
> only that could be my problem.
> 
> As a newbie I may well be overlooking the obvious, but I have not
> found the means for making an "ink use selection".  I have set
> Highlight, Shadow, and Gamma values to extremes, but see no effect on
> a 21-step wedge print.
> 
> Can someone clue me in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

How about some guidance on when a 2 toner curves approach is 
applicable--please?

Are there any supplied profiles that use the toner1 and toner2 
approach?

Thanks.

jr

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> You don't state which paper types, matte or glossy. Have you looked 
at any
> existing examples of curves that come with qtr? You can do that by 
loading
> in the qidf file in the Curve Creation window. They are in:
>      C:/program files/quadtonerip/profiles/2200-ut7
> Use the EEM curve as an example for a matte paper. Use Ilford 
Smooth Pearl
> as an example of a glossy paper. The inks are used differently for 
the 2
> types of paper.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "ink use selection".
> 
> I found looking at existing curves a very useful way to get started.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of xylonic2000
> > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:08 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Toner Curve Confusion
> > 
> > Have UT-7 inks in an Epson 2200 on a Dell Workstation with QTR
> > 2.4.3.10.
> > 
> > Prints fine using curves packaged with QTR.  However, I am 
attempting
> > to create curves for a couple of odd-ball papers (cheap).
> > 
> > Tom Moore's User Guide is quite instructive.  However, he does not
> > mention utility of the Toner and Toner2 curves that one may 
specify
> > in the process of accommodating a particular paper. The Help file
> > states "You can setup two different toner curves for toner ink
> > control.  The toner curves are applied to the inks by using the 
Toner
> > and Toner2 ink use selections."  A search of past messages and the
> > data base was fruitless; plenty of references to "split toning" if
> > only that could be my problem.
> > 
> > As a newbie I may well be overlooking the obvious, but I have not
> > found the means for making an "ink use selection".  I have set
> > Highlight, Shadow, and Gamma values to extremes, but see no 
effect on

> > a 21-step wedge print.
> > 
> > Can someone clue me in?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> You don't state which paper types, matte or glossy. Have you looked 
at any
> existing examples of curves that come with qtr? You can do that by 
loading
> in the qidf file in the Curve Creation window. They are in:
>      C:/program files/quadtonerip/profiles/2200-ut7
> Use the EEM curve as an example for a matte paper. Use Ilford 
Smooth Pearl
> as an example of a glossy paper. The inks are used differently for 
the 2
> types of paper.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "ink use selection".
> 
> I found looking at existing curves a very useful way to get started.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of xylonic2000
> > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:08 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Toner Curve Confusion
> > 
> > Have UT-7 inks in an Epson 2200 on a Dell Workstation with QTR
> > 2.4.3.10.
> > 
> > Prints fine using curves packaged with QTR.  However, I am 
attempting
> > to create curves for a couple of odd-ball papers (cheap).
> > 
> > Tom Moore's User Guide is quite instructive.  However, he does not
> > mention utility of the Toner and Toner2 curves that one may 
specify
> > in the process of accommodating a particular paper. The Help file
> > states "You can setup two different toner curves for toner ink
> > control.  The toner curves are applied to the inks by using the 
Toner
> > and Toner2 ink use selections."  A search of past messages and the
> > data base was fruitless; plenty of references to "split toning" if
> > only that could be my problem.
> > 
> > As a newbie I may well be overlooking the obvious, but I have not
> > found the means for making an "ink use selection".  I have set
> > Highlight, Shadow, and Gamma values to extremes, but see no 
effect on
> > a 21-step wedge print.
> > 
> > Can someone clue me in?
> >
Thank you for the response, Tom.  Unfortunately, I have looked at 
existing curves (UT7-EEnhMatte-cool specifically) and am working on 
matte papers which achieve reasonable results with the EEnhMatte 
curve.  But, I am attempting to create curves specific to the papers 
I have; one of which is 11x14-inch acid-free, 300 GSM, artist 
watercolor stock.

Attempting to create a curve, I believe that the Gray Curve is always 
selected.  I have selected both the Toner and Toner2 curves (they are 
highlighted when I click on them) to create ostensibly unique curves.
However, when I print the 21-step wedge for those unique curves as 
well as the Gray Curve and measure ink densities using a Canon LIde80 
scanner, PS can find no difference among the 100%, 50%, 10%, 0% and 
paper values for the three curves.

"ink use selection" is the term appearing under The Toner Curves Tabs 
when QTR Help is invoked for Creating Curves.  I thought it implied 
using Toner or Toner2 when creating a curve; when that seemed 
fruitless, I looked for ink selection elsewhere to no avail.  Perhaps 
I am not invoking the Toner and Toner2 values properly.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> You don't state which paper types, matte or glossy. Have you looked 
at any
> existing examples of curves that come with qtr? You can do that by 
loading
> in the qidf file in the Curve Creation window. They are in:
>      C:/program files/quadtonerip/profiles/2200-ut7
> Use the EEM curve as an example for a matte paper. Use Ilford 
Smooth Pearl
> as an example of a glossy paper. The inks are used differently for 
the 2
> types of paper.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "ink use selection".
> 
> I found looking at existing curves a very useful way to get started.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of xylonic2000
Snip
 
Thank you Tom for the rapid response.  I have examined existing 
curves (UT7-EEnhMatte-cool, particularly) for clues to improve my 
creation of curves for matte papers.  In particular, I am trying to 
characterize 11X14-inch, acid-free, 300gsm, watercolor stock.

The term, "ink use selection" appears under "The Toner Curve tabs" 
when one reads "Creating Curves" in QTR Help.  I thought that it 
meant selecting Toner or Toner2 before initiating curve creation.  
Clicking on either tab highlights it and I assume it will be used to 
create the curve as the Gray Curve is used.  Practically, the Gray 
Curve seems always to be in force at all times.

I made up three curves (Gray Scale, Toner, Toner2) and printed a 21-
step wedge with each.  Examined for L-values in PS, there was no 
difference in density values at 100%, 50%, 10%, and 0% among the 
three prints; i.e. 100% density on the Gray Curve print was identical 
to the 100% densities of the Toner and Toner2 prints.

Thus failing, I searched for some manner of invoking the Toner and 
Toner2 values, modifications, or whatever when preparing to print.  
Nothing found and thus my question.

Am I failing properly to invoke the toner values?

See comments below

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of xylonic2000
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:36 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Toner Curve Confusion


...


> 
> Thank you Tom for the rapid response.  I have examined existing
> curves (UT7-EEnhMatte-cool, particularly) for clues to improve my
> creation of curves for matte papers.  In particular, I am trying to
> characterize 11X14-inch, acid-free, 300gsm, watercolor stock.

I suggest you try printing an image or step wedge (or both) on your paper
with an existing curve that seems closest to what you have. That will give
you an idea of what to expect and what improvements you'd like to make.

> 
> The term, "ink use selection" appears under "The Toner Curve tabs"
> when one reads "Creating Curves" in QTR Help.  I thought that it
> meant selecting Toner or Toner2 before initiating curve creation.

There's more to curve creation than selecting toner 1 or 2 and initiating
curve creation. Perhaps I don't understand what you are doing. Have you
printed the ink separation page to establish ink limits as described in the
user guide.

> Clicking on either tab highlights it and I assume it will be used to
> create the curve as the Gray Curve is used.  Practically, the Gray
> Curve seems always to be in force at all times.

The gray curve is always used. Toners are used to add (or remove) hue
to/from the grayscale curve. In QTR, for each paper we create multiple
curves (warm, cool, sepia etc). The curves can be combined during printing
to achieve the desired tonality of the image (warm, neutral,cool etc).
> 
> I made up three curves (Gray Scale, Toner, Toner2) and printed a 21-
> step wedge with each.  Examined for L-values in PS, there was no
> difference in density values at 100%, 50%, 10%, and 0% among the
> three prints; i.e. 100% density on the Gray Curve print was identical
> to the 100% densities of the Toner and Toner2 prints.

I have yet to use toner 2 when creating a curve.
> 
> Thus failing, I searched for some manner of invoking the Toner and
> Toner2 values, modifications, or whatever when preparing to print.
> Nothing found and thus my question.
> 
> Am I failing properly to invoke the toner values?
> 
> 
Hope this helps
Good luck

I am sorry Tom, but your words do not inform me.  I have made 
numerous prints of step wedges and actual photos in attempts to 
puzzzle out the meaning of Toner and Toner2.

When I take on a new computer routine I attempt to explore all the 
functions or alternatives offered; how can I know what may be useful 
without trying when there is no pressure to achieve specific results?

Thank you for your attention.  As noted in my last missive, I have 
employed Toner and Toner2 as you suggest.  No benefit.  For the 
present, I shall abandon whatever utility Toner and Toner2 may 
represent.


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> See comments below
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of xylonic2000
> > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:36 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Toner Curve Confusion
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> > 
> > Thank you Tom for the rapid response.  I have examined existing
> > curves (UT7-EEnhMatte-cool, particularly) for clues to improve my
> > creation of curves for matte papers.  In particular, I am trying 
to
> > characterize 11X14-inch, acid-free, 300gsm, watercolor stock.
> 
> I suggest you try printing an image or step wedge (or both) on your 
paper
> with an existing curve that seems closest to what you have. That 
will give
> you an idea of what to expect and what improvements you'd like to 
make.
> 
> > 
> > The term, "ink use selection" appears under "The Toner Curve tabs"
> > when one reads "Creating Curves" in QTR Help.  I thought that it
> > meant selecting Toner or Toner2 before initiating curve creation.
> 
> There's more to curve creation than selecting toner 1 or 2 and 
initiating
> curve creation. Perhaps I don't understand what you are doing. Have 
you
> printed the ink separation page to establish ink limits as 
described in the
> user guide.
> 
> > Clicking on either tab highlights it and I assume it will be used 
to
> > create the curve as the Gray Curve is used.  Practically, the Gray
> > Curve seems always to be in force at all times.
> 
> The gray curve is always used. Toners are used to add (or remove) 
hue
> to/from the grayscale curve. In QTR, for each paper we create 
multiple
> curves (warm, cool, sepia etc). The curves can be combined during 
printing
> to achieve the desired tonality of the image (warm, neutral,cool 
etc).
> > 
> > I made up three curves (Gray Scale, Toner, Toner2) and printed a 
21-
> > step wedge with each.  Examined for L-values in PS, there was no
> > difference in density values at 100%, 50%, 10%, and 0% among the
> > three prints; i.e. 100% density on the Gray Curve print was 
identical

> > to the 100% densities of the Toner and Toner2 prints.
> 
> I have yet to use toner 2 when creating a curve.
> > 
> > Thus failing, I searched for some manner of invoking the Toner and
> > Toner2 values, modifications, or whatever when preparing to print.
> > Nothing found and thus my question.
> > 
> > Am I failing properly to invoke the toner values?
> > 
> > 
> Hope this helps
> Good luck
>

xylonic

We certainly are having difficulty communicating. If you want to carry this
discussion further, we might make some progress by discussing something
concrete - e.g. one of the curves you have created (you pick which one). You
could start by telling me how you have assigned each of the UT-7 inks for
that curve. You could do this by sending me your QIDF file or a screen
capture of the Curve Creation window with that curve opened.

Tom Moore

...
> 
> I am sorry Tom, but your words do not inform me.  I have made
> numerous prints of step wedges and actual photos in attempts to
> puzzzle out the meaning of Toner and Toner2.
> 
> When I take on a new computer routine I attempt to explore all the
> functions or alternatives offered; how can I know what may be useful
> without trying when there is no pressure to achieve specific results?
> 
> Thank you for your attention.  As noted in my last missive, I have
> employed Toner and Toner2 as you suggest.  No benefit.  For the
> present, I shall abandon whatever utility Toner and Toner2 may
> represent.
...