QTR-Quadtone RIP

I'm looking to purchase the x-rite 810 densitometer to aid in creating
paper/ink profiles for QTR.  My question has to do with the
calibration strips that come with the unit.

If I find a good looking unit but it doesn't have the calibration
strips, especially the reflective strip, how do I calibrate the unit?
 Is there a simple standard that can be obtained elsewhere?  From what
I have seen the 810 calibrates for reflectance based on a "black", a
"white", and a "gray" patch.  Seems like these might be easy to come by.

Mike

A good approach would be to purchase a unit with a calibration plaque
included. Even better would be to get one with a calibration plate that is
still current. Mine came with 2 plates (for reflective measurement) and a
film for transmissive measurement. All the calibration items were past their
expiry dates. I've used them anyway and I've been happy with the results.

If you get a unit without calibration plate you can buy one from xrite. I
don't remember the price other than they're fairly expensive. The reflective
calibration plates are metal with what looks like an enamel surface. They
have a data sheet giving their measurement values used in the calibration
process. Although there is a gray patch, only the black and white are used
for the calibration. If you're thinking of a do-it-yourself calibration
strip, you'll need to measure the strip with a device known to be
calibrated. The strip would then have to be stable over time and sturdy
enough to survive repeated use.

As a more flexible alternative buying an 810 and a patch, you might want to
consider the PrintfixPRO package. It does everything the 810 does as far as
supporting QTR is concerned, plus it also measures colour, creates ICCs for
colour ink sets and calibrates your monitor too. Of course PrintFIX doesn't
do transmission densitometry.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Mike Dawson
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:49 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] X-Rite 810 densitometer
> 
> I'm looking to purchase the x-rite 810 densitometer to aid in creating
> paper/ink profiles for QTR.  My question has to do with the
> calibration strips that come with the unit.
> 
> If I find a good looking unit but it doesn't have the calibration
> strips, especially the reflective strip, how do I calibrate the unit?
>  Is there a simple standard that can be obtained elsewhere?  From what
> I have seen the 810 calibrates for reflectance based on a "black", a
> "white", and a "gray" patch.  Seems like these might be easy to come by.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Thanks for the response Tom.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> If you get a unit without calibration plate you can buy one from 
xrite. I
> don't remember the price other than they're fairly expensive. The 
reflective
> calibration plates are metal with what looks like an enamel 
surface. They
> have a data sheet giving their measurement values used in the 
calibration

The reflective calibration target looks to be about $70 from xrite.  
I guess I'd need to weigh out the value of an 810 that came with the 
calibration target but out of date vs. just buying a new target.
 
> As a more flexible alternative buying an 810 and a patch, you might 
want to
> consider the PrintfixPRO package. It does everything the 810 does 
as far as
> supporting QTR is concerned, plus it also measures colour, creates 
ICCs for
> colour ink sets and calibrates your monitor too. Of course PrintFIX 
doesn't
> do transmission densitometry.
> 

Interesting suggestion.  The issue I see is that the PrintfixPro 
package is $500.  If I can get a used 810 for around $130 plus $70 
for a new target that's only $200.  But as you say, you're getting a 
lot more with PrintfixPro.

As far as QTR goes can you give an indication of how you use the 
spectrophotometer?  I assume you can use the spectrophotometer 
outside of the PrintfixPro software package?  When doing so are you 
measuring the L values of the gray patches (as opposed to the density 
readings of the densitometer)?

Mike

Mike

I bought the printfixpro suite on Ebay for around $550. That included the
spyder II monitor calibration. I don't see any units on ebay right now.

The 810 is definitely cheaper. As always, it's a cost benefit tradeoff. With
the 810, only the visual density readings are useful for digital printing.
It can read so-called Status A RGB values, but there is no conversion
available from these to, for example, LAB. With printfix you get the density
measurement PLUS you get colour. That means, for example you can prepare ICC
files that will give you a complete softproof of your toned QTR images, you
can prepare ICC profiles for 3rd party inks for colour printing, and most
interesting to me, you can create ICC for printing with reduced gamut
inksets like Paul Roark's UT3D inks. I haven't tried this last one yet.

By the way, I realize this sounds a little too enthusiastic. I have no
personal interest in printfixpro. I just happen to own one. If all you want
to do is make QTR curves, the 810 will do fine and is not a big investment.
They're built like tanks and, so far, xrite continues to provide parts like
bulbs and calibration paques.

With respet to the readings, the printfix spectro reads LAB values. QTR can
use L values as well as density values so they don't have to be converted.
If you want to know the densities the L can be converted to density.
Although David Tobie states that there is no "formal" conversion from L* to
density, there are several sources on the web for the conversion math,
including a spreadsheet that I created and placed in the files section of
the QTR mailing list. Formal or not, the conversions were useful to me.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Mike Dawson
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:54 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: X-Rite 810 densitometer
> 
> Thanks for the response Tom.
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
> >
> > If you get a unit without calibration plate you can buy one from
> xrite. I
> > don't remember the price other than they're fairly expensive. The
> reflective
> > calibration plates are metal with what looks like an enamel
> surface. They
> > have a data sheet giving their measurement values used in the
> calibration
> 
> The reflective calibration target looks to be about $70 from xrite.
> I guess I'd need to weigh out the value of an 810 that came with the
> calibration target but out of date vs. just buying a new target.
> 
> > As a more flexible alternative buying an 810 and a patch, you might
> want to
> > consider the PrintfixPRO package. It does everything the 810 does
> as far as
> > supporting QTR is concerned, plus it also measures colour, creates
> ICCs for
> > colour ink sets and calibrates your monitor too. Of course PrintFIX
> doesn't
> > do transmission densitometry.
> >
> 
> Interesting suggestion.  The issue I see is that the PrintfixPro
> package is $500.  If I can get a used 810 for around $130 plus $70
> for a new target that's only $200.  But as you say, you're getting a
> lot more with PrintfixPro.
> 
> As far as QTR goes can you give an indication of how you use the
> spectrophotometer?  I assume you can use the spectrophotometer
> outside of the PrintfixPro software package?  When doing so are you
> measuring the L values of the gray patches (as opposed to the density
> readings of the densitometer)?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Many thanks again Tom!!

I'll give it some thought as I do color work as well.  I'm using an 
R1800 printer and my monitor has been calibrated with the Monaco 
Optix XR puck.  I've had pretty good color matching between my 
monitor and Epson OEM inks and Premium Glossy paper.  EXCEPT for 
yellow.  I've used the Epson supplied profiles as well as some 
profiles I made myself using one of the simple Monaco profiling tools 
and they come out the same.  Too much magenta in the yellows.

So maybe Printfix Pro is worth considering.

Mike
 
--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> Mike
> 
> I bought the printfixpro suite on Ebay for around $550. That 
included the
> spyder II monitor calibration. I don't see any units on ebay right 
now.
> 
> The 810 is definitely cheaper. As always, it's a cost benefit 
tradeoff. With
> the 810, only the visual density readings are useful for digital 
printing.
> It can read so-called Status A RGB values, but there is no 
conversion
> available from these to, for example, LAB. With printfix you get 
the density
> measurement PLUS you get colour. That means, for example you can 
prepare ICC
> files that will give you a complete softproof of your toned QTR 
images, you
> can prepare ICC profiles for 3rd party inks for colour printing, 
and most
> interesting to me, you can create ICC for printing with reduced 
gamut
> inksets like Paul Roark's UT3D inks. I haven't tried this last one 
yet.
> 
> By the way, I realize this sounds a little too enthusiastic. I have 
no
> personal interest in printfixpro. I just happen to own one. If all 
you want
> to do is make QTR curves, the 810 will do fine and is not a big 
investment.
> They're built like tanks and, so far, xrite continues to provide 
parts like
> bulbs and calibration paques.
> 
> With respet to the readings, the printfix spectro reads LAB values. 
QTR can
> use L values as well as density values so they don't have to be 
converted.
> If you want to know the densities the L can be converted to density.
> Although David Tobie states that there is no "formal" conversion 
from L* to
> density, there are several sources on the web for the conversion 
math,
> including a spreadsheet that I created and placed in the files 
section of
> the QTR mailing list. Formal or not, the conversions were useful to 
me.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of Mike Dawson
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:54 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: X-Rite 810 densitometer
> > 
> > Thanks for the response Tom.
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@> 
wrote:
> > >
> > > If you get a unit without calibration plate you can buy one from
> > xrite. I
> > > don't remember the price other than they're fairly expensive. 
The
> > reflective
> > > calibration plates are metal with what looks like an enamel
> > surface. They
> > > have a data sheet giving their measurement values used in the
> > calibration
> > 
> > The reflective calibration target looks to be about $70 from 
xrite.
> > I guess I'd need to weigh out the value of an 810 that came with 
the
> > calibration target but out of date vs. just buying a new target.
> > 
> > > As a more flexible alternative buying an 810 and a patch, you 
might
> > want to
> > > consider the PrintfixPRO package. It does everything the 810 
does
> > as far as
> > > supporting QTR is concerned, plus it also measures colour, 
creates
> > ICCs for
> > > colour ink sets and calibrates your monitor too. Of course 
PrintFIX
> > doesn't
> > > do transmission densitometry.
> > >
> > 
> > Interesting suggestion.  The issue I see is that the PrintfixPro
> > package is $500.  If I can get a used 810 for around $130 plus $70
> > for a new target that's only $200.  But as you say, you're 
getting a
> > lot more with PrintfixPro.
> > 
> > As far as QTR goes can you give an indication of how you use the
> > spectrophotometer?  I assume you can use the spectrophotometer
> > outside of the PrintfixPro software package?  When doing so are 
you
> > measuring the L values of the gray patches (as opposed to the 
density

> > readings of the densitometer)?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >
>