QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for a little help - can't find the answer in the archives and my mouse finger is 
raw from trial and error research...

I'm trying to construct a 7-ink QTR profile from scratch. This is to make digital negatives 
using a home-grown workflow, so the commercially available print-oriented profiles are 
not what I want. 

I have figured out the QTR stuff, and I've put together a set of curves on Excel - now 
my question:

***How do I import the excel data into QTR?***

QTR data syntax in the ink descriptor file for individual ink curves seems to be 
CURVE_X="location1;value1 location2;value2 etc..."   In other words each input/output pair 
has a semi-colon between the two numbers and each pair is separated from the next pair 
by a space. 

I added columns to the Excel worksheet containing the input values (which are evenly 
spaced) followed a semi colon, for each output value. I have tried about 50 ways to save 
the Excel data strings as a text file, including re-opening in Excel and so on, but I can't 
seem to get rid of the spaces after the semi-colons except by hand-editing the text file.

Does anyone have an easier way???  Thanks for any help! 

And how would I import a .acv? 

I'm working with Tiger and QTR 2.4.3

Ben Altman

www.benaltmanphotographs.com

I am not sure about the commands you would use for the MAC, but in the
windows GUI, there is a button for each ink called 'curve.' Clicking on
that button brings up another window. The tab 'point list' allows for 50
points. I have two columns in excel (x and y) points. I just highlight both
columns and all 50 points and 'copy' them, then on the 'point list' window I
click 'paste points.'
The process is repeated for the other inks.

I don't know if that is helpful at all since your on the mac though.
Scott


On 2/10/07, stolptse <ben@...> wrote:
>
>   Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm looking for a little help - can't find the answer in the archives and
> my mouse finger is
> raw from trial and error research...
>
> I'm trying to construct a 7-ink QTR profile from scratch. This is to make
> digital negatives
> using a home-grown workflow, so the commercially available print-oriented
> profiles are
> not what I want.
>
> I have figured out the QTR stuff, and I've put together a set of curves on
> Excel - now
> my question:
>
> ***How do I import the excel data into QTR?***
>
> QTR data syntax in the ink descriptor file for individual ink curves seems
> to be
> CURVE_X="location1;value1 location2;value2 etc..." In other words each
> input/output pair
> has a semi-colon between the two numbers and each pair is separated from
> the next pair
> by a space.
>
> I added columns to the Excel worksheet containing the input values (which
> are evenly
> spaced) followed a semi colon, for each output value. I have tried about
> 50 ways to save
> the Excel data strings as a text file, including re-opening in Excel and
> so on, but I can't
> seem to get rid of the spaces after the semi-colons except by hand-editing
> the text file.
>
> Does anyone have an easier way??? Thanks for any help!
>
> And how would I import a .acv?
>
> I'm working with Tiger and QTR 2.4.3
>
> Ben Altman
>
> www.benaltmanphotographs.com
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks - I don't think the Mac version has that. One just works in the text file, as far as I 
can see, but if I'm wrong, someone please put me out of my misery...  From the error 
messages I've seen when dropping the text file on the application that turns it into a 
profile, it looks as if it does look for data, but it's not clear to me where.  

I realized after I sent the post that I can get rid of the spaces when I save the Excel file to 
text by the rather crude method of shrinking the column width (and reformatting the cells 
as text) but I still need to put a leading zero in each cell that only contains one character. 
Your suggestion makes me wonder if working in columns would be better than rows. I'll 
take a look.

Has anyone worked on a way to figure out the dot gain of combinations of inks at different 
dilutions? The calibration routine makes it easy for the individual inks, but I'm wondering 
what happens in combo - the possible number of combinations is high, so a rule of thumb 
would take some of the guesswork out of designing a profile.

Best,   Ben



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Schroeder" <schrochem@...> wrote:

>
> I am not sure about the commands you would use for the MAC, but in the
> windows GUI, there is a button for each ink called 'curve.' Clicking on
> that button brings up another window. The tab 'point list' allows for 50
> points. I have two columns in excel (x and y) points. I just highlight both
> columns and all 50 points and 'copy' them, then on the 'point list' window I
> click 'paste points.'
> The process is repeated for the other inks.
> 
> I don't know if that is helpful at all since your on the mac though.
> Scott
> 
> 
> On 2/10/07, stolptse <ben@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I'm looking for a little help - can't find the answer in the archives and
> > my mouse finger is
> > raw from trial and error research...
> >
> > I'm trying to construct a 7-ink QTR profile from scratch. This is to make
> > digital negatives
> > using a home-grown workflow, so the commercially available print-oriented
> > profiles are
> > not what I want.
> >
> > I have figured out the QTR stuff, and I've put together a set of curves on
> > Excel - now
> > my question:
> >
> > ***How do I import the excel data into QTR?***
> >
> > QTR data syntax in the ink descriptor file for individual ink curves seems
> > to be
> > CURVE_X="location1;value1 location2;value2 etc..." In other words each
> > input/output pair
> > has a semi-colon between the two numbers and each pair is separated from
> > the next pair
> > by a space.
> >
> > I added columns to the Excel worksheet containing the input values (which
> > are evenly
> > spaced) followed a semi colon, for each output value. I have tried about
> > 50 ways to save
> > the Excel data strings as a text file, including re-opening in Excel and
> > so on, but I can't
> > seem to get rid of the spaces after the semi-colons except by hand-editing
> > the text file.
> >
> > Does anyone have an easier way??? Thanks for any help!
> >
> > And how would I import a .acv?
> >
> > I'm working with Tiger and QTR 2.4.3
> >
> > Ben Altman
> >
> > www.benaltmanphotographs.com
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ben

To create a string consisting of 2 numbers separated by a semicolon with no
spaces use the Excel Concatenate and Text functions, as in

	=CONCATENATE(TEXT(D43,"0.0##"),";",TEXT(E43,"0.0##"))

		Where d43 and E43 contain the values of the coordinate pair
you are want to output. For an array of pairs you would have to create a row
with a sequence of these string formulas and then output this row of text
strings rather than the original numbers.

Hope this helps.

Tom Moore

Terrific. Thanks Tom! I never would have found that for myself. I'll try it in a couple of days 
when this stomach bug I have lets me think clearly again...

Best,

Ben

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:

>
> Ben
> 
> To create a string consisting of 2 numbers separated by a semicolon with no
> spaces use the Excel Concatenate and Text functions, as in
> 
> 	=CONCATENATE(TEXT(D43,"0.0##"),";",TEXT(E43,"0.0##"))
> 
> 		Where d43 and E43 contain the values of the coordinate pair
> you are want to output. For an array of pairs you would have to create a row
> with a sequence of these string formulas and then output this row of text
> strings rather than the original numbers.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Tom Moore
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of stolptse
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:28 AM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How do I import Excel files into QTR?
> 

[...]
It's not clear to me what you're doing, but it seems to me that you are
trying to do manually what the Curve Creation algorithms in QTR do
automatically. What is the benefit of creating a curve using Excel?

> 
> Has anyone worked on a way to figure out the dot gain of combinations of
> inks at different
> dilutions? The calibration routine makes it easy for the individual inks,
> but I'm wondering
> what happens in combo - the possible number of combinations is high, so a
> rule of thumb
> would take some of the guesswork out of designing a profile.
> 
> 
[...]

Hi Tom,

It's not clear to me either...

I'm figuring out a workflow to make digital negs. As these have inverted characteristics 
from a print, the dot gain works differently; it separates dark tones and compresses light 
tones in the print - so maybe the normal QTR curve-generating algorithms are not ideal. 
Maybe they are fine, if I tweak them with the tools provided, but by figuring it out from 
scratch I end up with a better idea of what underlies the program.

I'm working with a 2200 and my first try was with K7 inks. They seem to be too fragile on 
transparent media, so my next move will be K3 ink in refillable cartridges, using light 
black, light-light black, maybe a dash of yellow mixed into them, and maybe diluted for 
some ink positions.

Prints from digital negs tend to be grainy in the light tones, and the theory is that this is 
caused by gaps between the ink dots on the neg. and/or differential UV blocking by 
different color inks in colorized negatives. It seems from what I read that it helps to lay 
down several inks at once, using lots of nozzles, and have the inks be all the same color. 
Hence QTR and an Excel sheet to compile the ink profile. The worksheet can give me a 
graphical representation of the optical density and ink volume of the profile, if the dot 
gains can be figured in. Easy for individual inks, but tricky to figure how inks of different 
dilution interact.  

Maybe I'll actually print something one day...

Best,

Ben

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of stolptse
> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:28 AM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How do I import Excel files into QTR?
> > 
> 
> [...]
> It's not clear to me what you're doing, but it seems to me that you are
> trying to do manually what the Curve Creation algorithms in QTR do
> automatically. What is the benefit of creating a curve using Excel?
> 
> > 
> > Has anyone worked on a way to figure out the dot gain of combinations of
> > inks at different
> > dilutions? The calibration routine makes it easy for the individual inks,
> > but I'm wondering
> > what happens in combo - the possible number of combinations is high, so a
> > rule of thumb
> > would take some of the guesswork out of designing a profile.
> > 
> > 
> [...]
>

Ben

Thanks for the info. I've never tried to produce a digital negative. If I
understand you then, simply inverting the image and printing it using QTR
would devote too much of the tonal range to the highlights and not enough
for the shadows in the eventual image. Have you considered creating (or
using an existing) regular curve using QTR and then adjusting the gamma
and/or shadow setting in QTR before printing? You may have to calibrate your
adjustments by printing out a few step wedges.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of stolptse
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:05 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How do I import Excel files into QTR?
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> It's not clear to me either...
> 
> I'm figuring out a workflow to make digital negs. As these have inverted
> characteristics
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:
>
> Ben
> 
> Thanks for the info. I've never tried to produce a digital negative. If I
> understand you then, simply inverting the image and printing it using QTR
> would devote too much of the tonal range to the highlights and not enough
> for the shadows in the eventual image. 

Exactly. If you make, say, a Ziatype (palladium, etc.) print of a Stouffer wedge, the dark 
steps on the print will be too close together. So the light tones of the neg. need bigger 
steps. Dot gain does this naturally, and QTR profiles are designed to reverse that effect for 
a digital inkjet print, so it's doing stuff I'd need to undo again, at least to get a clean step 
wedge. I may decide to vary the plan later for expressive purposes or to allow for the 
characteristics of the original negative, but if I figure out a good system, that should be 
possible. Most current digital-negative schemes take the print engine as is and tweak the 
Photoshop file. I like to subject my files to the least possible abuse in Photoshop so the 
right ink profiles would help in that.


>Have you considered creating (or
> using an existing) regular curve using QTR and then adjusting the gamma
> and/or shadow setting in QTR before printing? You may have to calibrate your
> adjustments by printing out a few step wedges.

That would be much too easy! I may end up doing just that, but I thought I'd try for total 
control first, which may allow me to get more nozzles firing than the standard QTR 
routine. 

Is there a way to see what's in that Drop-Quad-Profile black-box, ie. how it decides what 
overlaps it uses between inks, and balances the densities and volume, etc? - although I'm 
happier figuring things out for myself than reverse-engineering other folks hard work.

It's good to have something to mess with when it's snowing this hard, and it might even 
work...

> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of stolptse
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:05 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How do I import Excel files into QTR?
> > 
> > Hi Tom,
> > 
> > It's not clear to me either...
> > 
> > I'm figuring out a workflow to make digital negs. As these have inverted
> > characteristics
> >
>

Ben

You can see any curve (as a graph) by selecting it as one of your 3 curves
in QTRqui and then right clicking that curve box and selecting Show Curve
Graph. You can see up to 3 graphs at once.

Since you're an Excel buff, you can also read in the .quad files and plot
them in excel to get a better quality graph. It takes a bit of cutting and
pasting to arrange the data. It would also be easy to write an excel VBA
Macro to do that.

Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of stolptse
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:19 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How do I import Excel files into QTR?
> 

...

> 
> Is there a way to see what's in that Drop-Quad-Profile black-box, ie. how
> it decides what
> overlaps it uses between inks, and balances the densities and volume, etc?
> - although I'm
> happier figuring things out for myself than reverse-engineering other
> folks hard work.
> 
> It's good to have something to mess with when it's snowing this hard, and
> it might even
> work...
> 

...
>

Hi Tom, 

That sounds like a Windows trick - but I havn't had a chance to look for it on the Mac 
today.

I'm more bluff than buff - that's why I need all this help - for which many thanks.

Best,  Ben

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> wrote:

>
> Ben
> 
> You can see any curve (as a graph) by selecting it as one of your 3 curves
> in QTRqui and then right clicking that curve box and selecting Show Curve
> Graph. You can see up to 3 graphs at once.
> 
> Since you're an Excel buff, you can also read in the .quad files and plot
> them in excel to get a better quality graph. It takes a bit of cutting and
> pasting to arrange the data. It would also be easy to write an excel VBA
> Macro to do that.
> 
> Tom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of stolptse
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:19 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How do I import Excel files into QTR?
> > 
> 
> ...
> 
> > 
> > Is there a way to see what's in that Drop-Quad-Profile black-box, ie. how
> > it decides what
> > overlaps it uses between inks, and balances the densities and volume, etc?
> > - although I'm
> > happier figuring things out for myself than reverse-engineering other
> > folks hard work.
> > 
> > It's good to have something to mess with when it's snowing this hard, and
> > it might even
> > work...
> > 
> 
> ...
> >
>