QTR-Quadtone RIP

On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

> What profile where you printing with?
>
> -Walker
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Carl Schofield wrote:
>
>> Good news/bad news. You can now print via QTR using color
>> management in LR 1.1 (Mac)
>> without getting crashes. Bad news is that rendering is not correct
>> - prints look washed out
>> and "veiled" without contrast. Solutions?
>>
>>
>>

On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Carl Schofield wrote:
>> Good news/bad news.  You can now print via QTR using color  
>> management in LR 1.1 (Mac)
>> without getting crashes.  Bad news is that rendering is not  
>> correct - prints look washed out
>> and "veiled" without contrast.  Solutions?
>
> Perceptual with BPC ?  Set BPC OFF if possible. The thing I
> encountered in Qimage, I have no experience with Lightroom.
>
> If that doesn't work or not enough you possibly have to make
> Lightroom specific profiles.
>
>
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
>
>
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |

On Jun 27, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Carl Schofield wrote:
>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell  
>> <wblackwell@...> wrote:
>>> BPC is on
>>>
>> Thanks.  I missed seeing the little note in the print panel  
>> indicating that BPC is on.  Guess it is
>> always on with either perceptual or relative.  I tried both  
>> intents and even tried setting the
>> clarity slider to 100%, but still get muddy gray prints.  Oh well,  
>> back to CS3 for printing with
>> QTR until they fix CM in LR.
>
> You could check whether it is the CM in LR by printing an
> image that is converted to the QTR paper profile in PS and
> have CM OFF in LR.
>
>
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
>
>
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |

> > QTR until they fix CM in LR.
> 
> You could check whether it is the CM in LR by printing an 
> image that is converted to the QTR paper profile in PS and 
> have CM OFF in LR.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

On Jun 28, 2007, at 12:55 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

> Maybe it's something to do with Lightroom's ProPhotoRGB workspace?
>
> I'll test a Photoshop ProPhoto to Create-ICC-RGB to print and see if
> I get the same thing . . .
>
> ps: I was getting weird stuff with the old SPro9600 drivers with
> color prints out of lightroom a couple months ago because of the fact
> that they couldn't handle a ProPhoto -> OutputRGB conversion, or the
> couldn't hand Lightroom's rendering of that conversion. The new 9600
> drivers worked fine except when printing over a network through OS X
> Server.
>
> Maybe this is one for ColorSync forum.
>
> take care, Walker

From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ernst Dinkla
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 2:11 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Lightroom 1.1 and QTR

 

Carl Schofield wrote:
> Posted this reply a few hours ago by email, but didn't go thru so here is
answer via web:
> 
> Ernst,
> 
> I just tried that. Converted the image file in CS3 to the QTR create-icc
profile and then 
> printed from LR 1.1 with color management off ("managed by printer").
Print was perfect 
> so looks like something is not right with LR CM.
> 
> Carl

I got both Carl.

On BPC with Perceptual: Mike Chaney thinks that BPC 
shouldn't be used with Perceptual rendering as that 
rendering already compresses the image to the printer gamut 
including the greyscale range. Sounds logical to me. But you 
find it used everywhere as an option in software CM 
including Qimage. The Canon iPFx000 driver plug-in doesn't 
have it and people complain about that omission :-)

Is there a Chinese wall between the Photoshop and the 
Lightroom developers ?

Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment-print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Look in the read me section of the upgrade to 1.1. There are known issues
> with certain aspects of printing. Sorry, I don't have all you email in front
> of me right now, but there are some issues. I seem to remember Adobe telling
> users to make sure to use the correct profile and not let printer manage
> color. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric   
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street
> 
> Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> Skype ejprinter
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Ernst Dinkla
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 2:11 AM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Lightroom 1.1 and QTR
> 
>  
> 
> Carl Schofield wrote:
> > Posted this reply a few hours ago by email, but didn't go thru so here is
> answer via web:
> > 
> > Ernst,
> > 
> > I just tried that. Converted the image file in CS3 to the QTR create-icc
> profile and then 
> > printed from LR 1.1 with color management off ("managed by printer").
> Print was perfect 
> > so looks like something is not right with LR CM.
> > 
> > Carl
> 
> I got both Carl.
> 
> On BPC with Perceptual: Mike Chaney thinks that BPC 
> shouldn't be used with Perceptual rendering as that 
> rendering already compresses the image to the printer gamut 
> including the greyscale range. Sounds logical to me. But you 
> find it used everywhere as an option in software CM 
> including Qimage. The Canon iPFx000 driver plug-in doesn't 
> have it and people complain about that omission :-)
> 
> Is there a Chinese wall between the Photoshop and the 
> Lightroom developers ?
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> | Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
> | www.pigment-print.com |
> | ( unvollendet ) |
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Carl Schofield
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 3:23 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Lightroom 1.1 and QTR

 

Eric,

There is an issue with color management in LR that has not yet been
...

On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

> I believe I just got to the bottom of it. Photoshop (it seems) does
> all of the grunt-work when it comes to pure color management. That's
> because it's been around since before OSs had any color management.
> So when you print a big'ol image it's actually doing a hard-
> conversion of that file to the out-put profile and then sending that
> data along to the print driver. (Thus all the time it takes to
> print.) All the print driver has to do is send the data to the  
> Printer.
>
> Lightroom, on the other hand, tags the image with the profile and
> lets the print driver handle the conversion. I think that is where
> it's getting sticky. This explains why I was having such a hard time
> with the old Spro9600 drivers when printing color. They just couldn't
> handle the profile conversion themselves. The driver expected a
> converted file.]
>
> It also explains the slight lag between finishing a file rip in
> Lightroom and seeing it come up in the print queue.
>
> Can QTR handle ICC profile conversions? And is it v4 compliant? Most
> likely more and more applications will come out soon that will
> require OS and Driver color management instead of doing all the work
> themselves. It makes everything faster and more scaleable.
>
> The nice thing is the Adobe CMM is open source and available to use
> for such a thing as driver-based ICC conversions.
>
> take care, Walker

>
> I believe I just got to the bottom of it. Photoshop (it seems) does  
> all of the grunt-work when it comes to pure color management. That's  
> because it's been around since before OSs had any color management.  
> So when you print a big'ol image it's actually doing a hard- 
> conversion of that file to the out-put profile and then sending that  
> data along to the print driver. (Thus all the time it takes to  
> print.) All the print driver has to do is send the data to the Printer.
> 
> Lightroom, on the other hand, tags the image with the profile and  
> lets the print driver handle the conversion. I think that is where  
> it's getting sticky. This explains why I was having such a hard time  
> with the old Spro9600 drivers when printing color. They just couldn't  
> handle the profile conversion themselves. The driver expected a  
> converted file.]
> 
> It also explains the slight lag between finishing a file rip in  
> Lightroom and seeing it come up in the print queue.
> 
> Can QTR handle ICC profile conversions? And is it v4 compliant? Most  
> likely more and more applications will come out soon that will  
> require OS and Driver color management instead of doing all the work  
> themselves. It makes everything faster and more scaleable.
> 
> The nice thing is the Adobe CMM is open source and available to use  
> for such a thing as driver-based ICC conversions.
> 
> take care, Walker
>

On Jul 1, 2007, at 10:21 AM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

> After reading your post, Ernst, I agree with you somewhat. I believe
> the input/output world is way too varied to really be able to use LR
> as only a path and not a full CMM. But the only reason why I'm
> interested in it is for four reasons. I can run it on OS X (my OS of
> choice); I don't have to sit there for days waiting for prints to
> spool; I can tile images; I can keep print jobs and portfolios
> organized permenantly (and with Keywords). That last one is the key
> when you have 3.2 tbs of photographs hanging around.
>
> The reason why it's fast is because it relies on tagging. But that's
> its flaw as well. I agree. So maybe the Adobe people need to get
> there act together and make there own conversion quicker. Maybe they
> can talk with Epson and the Gimp driver community and get file
> segment policy down so we don't have to sit there waiting for the
> image to completely spool before we print. We are still in the dark-
> ages with PS and printing. As a StudioPrint user I can never go back
> to working w/ Photoshop for spooling. Lightroom and QTR offer a great
> alternative. I would say they are better than StudioPrint as far as
> speed and organization are concerned. Once we can use BPC with QTR
> from Lightroom and the 10,000 pixel limit is lifted it's all rocking
> and rolling as far as I'm concerned.
>
>   I also agree with you about the complexity of the hand-off from x
> application and x printer driver. Lightroom IS color managed in that
> it gives it gives its intent to the print driver + a background task
> that I've noticed kick into high-gear in the system process tree
> after hitting print. It's just not compatible with many drivers out
> there and they aren't with it. It's a pretty bone-headed move by the
> the lightroom folks I'd say.
>
> take care, W

On 6/30/07, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
> Walker,
>
> I think Roy will have to address that question, but I thought that
> QTR was relying on Photoshop to handle the front end icc conversion.
> I didn't realize that LR was passing the CM buck, but what you say
> certainly helps explain the problem.
>
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
> On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
>
> > I believe I just got to the bottom of it. Photoshop (it seems) does
> > all of the grunt-work when it comes to pure color management. That's
> > because it's been around since before OSs had any color management.
> > So when you print a big'ol image it's actually doing a hard-
> > conversion of that file to the out-put profile and then sending that
> > data along to the print driver. (Thus all the time it takes to
> > print.) All the print driver has to do is send the data to the
> > Printer.
> >
> > Lightroom, on the other hand, tags the image with the profile and
> > lets the print driver handle the conversion. I think that is where
> > it's getting sticky. This explains why I was having such a hard time
> > with the old Spro9600 drivers when printing color. They just couldn't
> > handle the profile conversion themselves. The driver expected a
> > converted file.]
> >
> > It also explains the slight lag between finishing a file rip in
> > Lightroom and seeing it come up in the print queue.
> >
> > Can QTR handle ICC profile conversions? And is it v4 compliant? Most
> > likely more and more applications will come out soon that will
> > require OS and Driver color management instead of doing all the work
> > themselves. It makes everything faster and more scaleable.
> >
> > The nice thing is the Adobe CMM is open source and available to use
> > for such a thing as driver-based ICC conversions.
> >
> > take care, Walker
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

> Sorry for jumping in late -- I've been away for the last week.
>
> I've been trying various things with LR and color management.  It's
> surprising that
> its so different in many ways from Photoshop -- you'd think they would
> capitalize
> on their PS experience.
>
> It appears that when you print with a custom profile in LR that the
> problem is not
> lack of ICC conversions but double profiling.  Profiles have two  
> sets of curves
> -- one for sending data to the print driver and the other for  
> displaying as in
> softproofing.  The reduction in dMax indicates to me that what is
> printed is similar
> to a proof print.  I.e if you setup softproofing and enable Ink Black
> Simulation you
> get the same effect.   You can also see this happening if you take  
> an image in
> PS, convert it to Gray Matte, and then convert it again to say GG2.2
> without BPC.
>
> So my guess at this point is that LR is setting up a conversion to  
> your custom
> print profile but that ColorSync later on is converting again -- (all
> this is before QTR
> ever sees anything).
>
> Input files also have some very interesting conversions happening  
> when you
> import.   It appears that embedded profiles are honored but everything
> is converted
> to a linear gamma profile they call "Melissa RGB".  But when you look
> at histograms
> or R G B percents everything is again converted to sRGB.  All this  
> makes it
> pretty mysterious when you try to figure out what to do.
>
> Printing targets for making ICCs is likely to be somewhere between  
> impossible
> and tricky to know what gets to the driver.
>
> I'd be curious if anyone has info about the profiles for color
> printing and the Epson
> driver.  I'd think it may be tricky to get identical results from both
> LR and PS.
>
> Roy
>
>
> On 6/30/07, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>> Walker,
>>
>> I think Roy will have to address that question, but I thought that
>> QTR was relying on Photoshop to handle the front end icc conversion.
>> I didn't realize that LR was passing the CM buck, but what you say
>> certainly helps explain the problem.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Carl
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
>>
>>> I believe I just got to the bottom of it. Photoshop (it seems) does
>>> all of the grunt-work when it comes to pure color management. That's
>>> because it's been around since before OSs had any color management.
>>> So when you print a big'ol image it's actually doing a hard-
>>> conversion of that file to the out-put profile and then sending that
>>> data along to the print driver. (Thus all the time it takes to
>>> print.) All the print driver has to do is send the data to the
>>> Printer.
>>>
>>> Lightroom, on the other hand, tags the image with the profile and
>>> lets the print driver handle the conversion. I think that is where
>>> it's getting sticky. This explains why I was having such a hard time
>>> with the old Spro9600 drivers when printing color. They just  
>>> couldn't
>>> handle the profile conversion themselves. The driver expected a
>>> converted file.]
>>>
>>> It also explains the slight lag between finishing a file rip in
>>> Lightroom and seeing it come up in the print queue.
>>>
>>> Can QTR handle ICC profile conversions? And is it v4 compliant? Most
>>> likely more and more applications will come out soon that will
>>> require OS and Driver color management instead of doing all the work
>>> themselves. It makes everything faster and more scaleable.
>>>
>>> The nice thing is the Adobe CMM is open source and available to use
>>> for such a thing as driver-based ICC conversions.
>>>
>>> take care, Walker
>>

On 7/10/07, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
> Roy,
>
> Eric Chan made a custom icc profile available in the Adobe Lightroom
> forum.  His profile is for converting from gamma 1.8 to 2.2 in
> Lightroom and was designed for printing to the ABW Epson driver.
> Strangely, using this profile, instead of the Create-icc custom
> profiles, seems to also work well when printing to QTR from
> Lightroom.  Here is the link to download Eric's profile and the Adobe
> Forum thread where this is discussed:
> http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/photos/tmp/GrayGamma22Print.zip
> http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@@.3bc43829
> I think the rationale for doing this was that Epson ABW expects gamma
> 2.2 input and in Lightroom everything is gamma 1.8 (ProPhotoRGB).
> However, I don't understand why this profile would improve printing
> to QTR.
>
> Carl
>
> > Sorry for jumping in late -- I've been away for the last week.
> >
> > I've been trying various things with LR and color management.  It's
> > surprising that
> > its so different in many ways from Photoshop -- you'd think they would
> > capitalize
> > on their PS experience.
> >
> > It appears that when you print with a custom profile in LR that the
> > problem is not
> > lack of ICC conversions but double profiling.  Profiles have two
> > sets of curves
> > -- one for sending data to the print driver and the other for
> > displaying as in
> > softproofing.  The reduction in dMax indicates to me that what is
> > printed is similar
> > to a proof print.  I.e if you setup softproofing and enable Ink Black
> > Simulation you
> > get the same effect.   You can also see this happening if you take
> > an image in
> > PS, convert it to Gray Matte, and then convert it again to say GG2.2
> > without BPC.
> >
> > So my guess at this point is that LR is setting up a conversion to
> > your custom
> > print profile but that ColorSync later on is converting again -- (all
> > this is before QTR
> > ever sees anything).
> >
> > Input files also have some very interesting conversions happening
> > when you
> > import.   It appears that embedded profiles are honored but everything
> > is converted
> > to a linear gamma profile they call "Melissa RGB".  But when you look
> > at histograms
> > or R G B percents everything is again converted to sRGB.  All this
> > makes it
> > pretty mysterious when you try to figure out what to do.
> >
> > Printing targets for making ICCs is likely to be somewhere between
> > impossible
> > and tricky to know what gets to the driver.
> >
> > I'd be curious if anyone has info about the profiles for color
> > printing and the Epson
> > driver.  I'd think it may be tricky to get identical results from both
> > LR and PS.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> >
> > On 6/30/07, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
> >> Walker,
> >>
> >> I think Roy will have to address that question, but I thought that
> >> QTR was relying on Photoshop to handle the front end icc conversion.
> >> I didn't realize that LR was passing the CM buck, but what you say
> >> certainly helps explain the problem.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
> >>
> >>> I believe I just got to the bottom of it. Photoshop (it seems) does
> >>> all of the grunt-work when it comes to pure color management. That's
> >>> because it's been around since before OSs had any color management.
> >>> So when you print a big'ol image it's actually doing a hard-
> >>> conversion of that file to the out-put profile and then sending that
> >>> data along to the print driver. (Thus all the time it takes to
> >>> print.) All the print driver has to do is send the data to the
> >>> Printer.
> >>>
> >>> Lightroom, on the other hand, tags the image with the profile and
> >>> lets the print driver handle the conversion. I think that is where
> >>> it's getting sticky. This explains why I was having such a hard time
> >>> with the old Spro9600 drivers when printing color. They just
> >>> couldn't
> >>> handle the profile conversion themselves. The driver expected a
> >>> converted file.]
> >>>
> >>> It also explains the slight lag between finishing a file rip in
> >>> Lightroom and seeing it come up in the print queue.
> >>>
> >>> Can QTR handle ICC profile conversions? And is it v4 compliant? Most
> >>> likely more and more applications will come out soon that will
> >>> require OS and Driver color management instead of doing all the work
> >>> themselves. It makes everything faster and more scaleable.
> >>>
> >>> The nice thing is the Adobe CMM is open source and available to use
> >>> for such a thing as driver-based ICC conversions.
> >>>
> >>> take care, Walker
> >>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>