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2007-12-07 by E Neilsen
What file type do you drop on the Create ICC program? Eric Neilsen Photo 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 214 827-8301 http://ericneilsenphotography.com SKype ejprinter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-07 by Louis Dina
Eric, You can use QuickRead (was a free download but no longer available), MeasureTool, or any other software that reads Lab or density data. I print the target-21 random 21 step gray scale with my unlinearized profile and read it with the spectro in strip mode. I save it as a tab delimited txt file, then drag it onto the Create_ICC file, which automatically sorts the L* or density readings and arranges them in order. QTR is smart enough to know the difference between L* and density, so you can use either one. You can also read your steps one by one and create a simple text file using a text editor. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> > What file type do you drop on the Create ICC program? > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen Photo > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > 214 827-8301 > > > > http://ericneilsenphotography.com > > SKype ejprinter > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2007-12-07 by E Neilsen
Where does it save the created ICC profile? I have color vision PFP that I use to read the data. I saw in the read me file in Eye One to use the linearize printing of a 21 step file. Eric Neilsen Photo 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 214 827-8301 http://ericneilsenphotography.com SKype ejprinter _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Louis Dina Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:11 PM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC Eric, You can use QuickRead (was a free download but no longer available), MeasureTool, or any other software that reads Lab or density data. I print the target-21 random 21 step gray scale with my unlinearized profile and read it with the spectro in strip mode. I save it as a tab delimited txt file, then drag it onto the Create_ICC file, which automatically sorts the L* or density readings and arranges them in order. QTR is smart enough to know the difference between L* and density, so you can use either one. You can also read your steps one by one and create a simple text file using a text editor. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote: > > What file type do you drop on the Create ICC program? > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen Photo > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > 214 827-8301 > > > > http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com > > SKype ejprinter > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-15 by Louis Dina
Eric, I keep the Create-ICC program on my desktop for easy access. When I read the data from my 21 step gray ramp, I also save that onto my desktop as a tab delimited text file. Then I drag this text file onto the Create-ICC icon, and it automatically generates an ICC profile. This ICC profile also shows up as an icon on my desktop. Since I am on a windows machine, I copy and paste this profile into my default system color profiles folder (c:\winnt\system32 \spool\drivers\color). Depending on your OS the path may be different. Once there, it should be available in Photoshop for soft proofing and conversion, if desired. If PS was open when you pasted the ICC profile into your profiles directory, you may need to reboot PS so it sees the profile. When I am done, I delete the text file and the ICC profile from my desktop, since I no longer need them. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote: > > Where does it save the created ICC profile? I have color vision PFP that I > use to read the data. > > I saw in the read me file in Eye One to use the linearize printing of a 21 > step file. > > > > Eric Neilsen Photo > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > 214 827-8301 > > > > http://ericneilsenphotography.com > > SKype ejprinter > > > > _____ > > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Louis Dina > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:11 PM > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC > > > > Eric, > > You can use QuickRead (was a free download but no longer available), > MeasureTool, or any other software that reads Lab or density data. I > print the target-21 random 21 step gray scale with my unlinearized > profile and read it with the spectro in strip mode. I save it as a > tab delimited txt file, then drag it onto the Create_ICC file, which > automatically sorts the L* or density readings and arranges them in > order. QTR is smart enough to know the difference between L* and > density, so you can use either one. > > You can also read your steps one by one and create a simple text file > using a text editor. > > Lou > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, > "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@> > wrote: > > > > What file type do you drop on the Create ICC program? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen Photo > > > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > > > 214 827-8301 > > > > > > > > http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com
> > > > SKype ejprinter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2007-12-15 by Eric Neilsen
Lou, I keep them there on my home computer, but I don't recall where they all were on the studio computer. I was working on this ne wink set down there. I did find it after doing a search . I do keep a shortcut on my desktop to get to the color folder. After help many people navigate there as well as getting there myself, I found a desktop icon save a bunch of keystrokes. : ) I did put it in the color folder and used it in Qimage to print. I checked the output with a direct print with QTR and there is a bit of a difference. I haven't checked all my setting yet. I suspect the intent but that is not crucial today. Eric Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 http://e.neilsen.home.att.net http://ericneilsenphotography.com Skype ejprinter _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Louis Dina Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 9:34 AM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC Eric, I keep the Create-ICC program on my desktop for easy access. When I read the data from my 21 step gray ramp, I also save that onto my desktop as a tab delimited text file. Then I drag this text file onto the Create-ICC icon, and it automatically generates an ICC profile. This ICC profile also shows up as an icon on my desktop. Since I am on a windows machine, I copy and paste this profile into my default system color profiles folder (c:\winnt\system32 \spool\drivers\color). Depending on your OS the path may be different. Once there, it should be available in Photoshop for soft proofing and conversion, if desired. If PS was open when you pasted the ICC profile into your profiles directory, you may need to reboot PS so it sees the profile. When I am done, I delete the text file and the ICC profile from my desktop, since I no longer need them. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote: > > Where does it save the created ICC profile? I have color vision PFP that I > use to read the data. > > I saw in the read me file in Eye One to use the linearize printing of a 21 > step file. > > > > Eric Neilsen Photo > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > 214 827-8301 > > > > http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com > > SKype ejprinter > > > > _____ > > From: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Louis Dina > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:11 PM > To: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC > > > > Eric, > > You can use QuickRead (was a free download but no longer available), > MeasureTool, or any other software that reads Lab or density data. I > print the target-21 random 21 step gray scale with my unlinearized > profile and read it with the spectro in strip mode. I save it as a > tab delimited txt file, then drag it onto the Create_ICC file, which > automatically sorts the L* or density readings and arranges them in > order. QTR is smart enough to know the difference between L* and > density, so you can use either one. > > You can also read your steps one by one and create a simple text file > using a text editor. > > Lou > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, > "E Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@> > wrote: > > > > What file type do you drop on the Create ICC program? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen Photo > > > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > > > 214 827-8301 > > > > > > > > http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com> hotography.com > > > > SKype ejprinter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-15 by Louis Dina
Perceptual with BPC is the correct rendering intent to use with QTR. I haven't ever tried printing QTR files through Qiamge. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote: > > Lou, I keep them there on my home computer, but I don't recall where they > all were on the studio computer. I was working on this ne wink set down > there. I did find it after doing a search . I do keep a shortcut on my > desktop to get to the color folder. After help many people navigate there as > well as getting there myself, I found a desktop icon save a bunch of > keystrokes. : ) > > > > I did put it in the color folder and used it in Qimage to print. I checked > the output with a direct print with QTR and there is a bit of a difference. > I haven't checked all my setting yet. I suspect the intent but that is not > crucial today.
2007-12-16 by Ernst Dinkla
Louis Dina wrote: > Perceptual with BPC is the correct rendering intent to use with QTR. > I haven't ever tried printing QTR files through Qiamge. > > Lou There are differences between Qimage and Photoshop when Perceptual + BPC is used with QTR created profiles. This has been discussed before. -- Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2007-12-16 by Louis Dina
Thanks, Ernst. I must have missed those discussions. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
> > > Louis Dina wrote: > > Perceptual with BPC is the correct rendering intent to use with > > QTR. I haven't ever tried printing QTR files through Qiamge. > > > > Lou > > There are differences between Qimage and Photoshop when > Perceptual + BPC is used with QTR created profiles. This has > been discussed before.
2007-12-16 by Eric Neilsen
Ernst (or anyone that recalls), Could you quickly go over those differences or give us a time frame to look at for info? Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 http://e.neilsen.home.att.net http://ericneilsenphotography.com Skype ejprinter _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernst Dinkla Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 4:41 AM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC Louis Dina wrote: > Perceptual with BPC is the correct rendering intent to use with QTR. > I haven't ever tried printing QTR files through Qiamge. > > Lou There are differences between Qimage and Photoshop when Perceptual + BPC is used with QTR created profiles. This has been discussed before. -- Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-16 by Ernst Dinkla
Eric Neilsen wrote: > Ernst (or anyone that recalls), Could you quickly go over those differences > or give us a time frame to look at for info? A message from June this year that sums it up best: As Roy indicated, BPC is not part of the ICC spec at all: it is an Adobe abomination, one of which (as is often the case with Adobe) is not completely specified for third parties to be able to reproduce. There are additional limitations with BPC for ICC v4 profiles as BPC really makes no sense for perceptual intent in v4 profiles. Perceptual intent for v4 profiles runs on its own PCS and is inherently different than RC and other intents making BPC undefinable by the spec. There are other issues as well, for example, when a profile uses a black point tag and that tag doesn't agree with the data in the look up tables. On top of that is the fact that black point for perceptual intent in v4 profiles should be a fixed value. There's also color "noise" to deal with and the fact that you have to deal with near-black. All software will handle that a bit differently. When using v4 profiles, many times the profiles themselves are not truly v4 as I've seen many that are a mix between v2 and v4 and don't have all the required v4 tags. Hard to tell which of these factors is causing the problem, but I've been over BPC with Marti Maria many times and am satisfied that it is working properly in Qimage/LCMS. PhotoShop also tends to "prune" profiles and do things without telling you so in cases like this, the answer could be as simple as PhotoShop ignoring BPC under these conditions while Qimage still tries to do something with it. Maybe the best thing in cases like this is to turn off BPC when using perceptual intent with v4 profiles as BPC really makes no sense in those cases anyway. Mike > > Roy Harrington wrote: >> > > Ernst, >> > > >> > > When I first tried Qimage with QTR ICCs back over a year ago there were some >> > > issues. The issue was a combination of both Qimage and Little CMS which is the >> > > internal color management of Qimage. At the time we got things to work just >> > > like they do Photoshop. I guess it's possible that it has been broken >> > > in a later >> > > version -- (I don't use Qimage on any regular basis so I wouldn't find >> > > out about it). >> > > >> > > The whole BPC issue is a problem in general. It is not addressed in >> > > the ICC standard >> > > at all -- neither v2 or v4. To quote the website it's "under active >> > > consideration". >> > > Adobe is the one who initiated the concept and wrote the "standard" for it. >> > > Another issue is that rendering intents are also up to implementers -- >> > > the idea is >> > > specified in ICC but the exact math involved is not. >> > > >> > > It's easy to see what your particular setup does. Instead of printing >> > > the output of >> > > Qimage (or any other program) send the output to a tiff file and open it up back >> > > in Photoshop to see what's been done to it. Use a 21 stepwedge and look at the >> > > histogram before and after -- or even just a 100% black box. >> > > >> > > Roy > > > > Roy, > > > > > > There's an older Qimage mailing list comment by Mike on BPC > > where he writes that BPC is not needed in perceptual > > rendering as the last already compresses the total within > > the printer's gamut. So he advises to keep BPC on in both > > perceptual (not doing harm) and relative colormetric (needed > > there for good shadow rendering). True if it works correctly > > but I see differences in Photoshop Perceptual rendering with > > and without BPC. In Qimage it certainly isn't inactive in > > the case I sketched. > > > > I rather print samples to really see and measure what I get > > than check it in PS that needs to be treated carefully as > > CM is almost never really suppressed in that program. > > Picture Window Pro's CM can be switched off totally, on the > > other hand that application has a quirky CM when switched on :-) > > I have been testing all the applications on QTR ICC > > compatibility probably two or three years ago and PWP made a > > mess of it then and now, Qimage is back to an old problem it > > seems but worse now as I want to print gloss with the higher > > Dmax. > > > > I'm going to measure the targets I got and select the method > > with the tone range that comes near the ideal curve for that > > Dmax. If the HP ABW sans application CM isn't too bad I > > might use that with Qimage for the time being, the QTR > > profile did correct the tone range though but I do not want > > to print from PS. > > > > > > Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst > > > > > > | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | > > | www.pigment-print.com | > > | ( unvollendet ) | > > -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2007-12-16 by Eric Neilsen
Thanks, I'll review it later. Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 http://e.neilsen.home.att.net http://ericneilsenphotography.com Skype ejprinter _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernst Dinkla Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:12 PM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC Eric Neilsen wrote: > Ernst (or anyone that recalls), Could you quickly go over those differences > or give us a time frame to look at for info? A message from June this year that sums it up best: As Roy indicated, BPC is not part of the ICC spec at all: it is an Adobe abomination, one of which (as is often the case with Adobe) is not completely specified for third parties to be able to reproduce. There are additional limitations with BPC for ICC v4 profiles as BPC really makes no sense for perceptual intent in v4 profiles. Perceptual intent for v4 profiles runs on its own PCS and is inherently different than RC and other intents making BPC undefinable by the spec. There are other issues as well, for example, when a profile uses a black point tag and that tag doesn't agree with the data in the look up tables. On top of that is the fact that black point for perceptual intent in v4 profiles should be a fixed value. There's also color "noise" to deal with and the fact that you have to deal with near-black. All software will handle that a bit differently. When using v4 profiles, many times the profiles themselves are not truly v4 as I've seen many that are a mix between v2 and v4 and don't have all the required v4 tags. Hard to tell which of these factors is causing the problem, but I've been over BPC with Marti Maria many times and am satisfied that it is working properly in Qimage/LCMS. PhotoShop also tends to "prune" profiles and do things without telling you so in cases like this, the answer could be as simple as PhotoShop ignoring BPC under these conditions while Qimage still tries to do something with it. Maybe the best thing in cases like this is to turn off BPC when using perceptual intent with v4 profiles as BPC really makes no sense in those cases anyway. Mike > > Roy Harrington wrote: >> > > Ernst, >> > > >> > > When I first tried Qimage with QTR ICCs back over a year ago there were some >> > > issues. The issue was a combination of both Qimage and Little CMS which is the >> > > internal color management of Qimage. At the time we got things to work just >> > > like they do Photoshop. I guess it's possible that it has been broken >> > > in a later >> > > version -- (I don't use Qimage on any regular basis so I wouldn't find >> > > out about it). >> > > >> > > The whole BPC issue is a problem in general. It is not addressed in >> > > the ICC standard >> > > at all -- neither v2 or v4. To quote the website it's "under active >> > > consideration". >> > > Adobe is the one who initiated the concept and wrote the "standard" for it. >> > > Another issue is that rendering intents are also up to implementers -- >> > > the idea is >> > > specified in ICC but the exact math involved is not. >> > > >> > > It's easy to see what your particular setup does. Instead of printing >> > > the output of >> > > Qimage (or any other program) send the output to a tiff file and open it up back >> > > in Photoshop to see what's been done to it. Use a 21 stepwedge and look at the >> > > histogram before and after -- or even just a 100% black box. >> > > >> > > Roy > > > > Roy, > > > > > > There's an older Qimage mailing list comment by Mike on BPC > > where he writes that BPC is not needed in perceptual > > rendering as the last already compresses the total within > > the printer's gamut. So he advises to keep BPC on in both > > perceptual (not doing harm) and relative colormetric (needed > > there for good shadow rendering). True if it works correctly > > but I see differences in Photoshop Perceptual rendering with > > and without BPC. In Qimage it certainly isn't inactive in > > the case I sketched. > > > > I rather print samples to really see and measure what I get > > than check it in PS that needs to be treated carefully as > > CM is almost never really suppressed in that program. > > Picture Window Pro's CM can be switched off totally, on the > > other hand that application has a quirky CM when switched on :-) > > I have been testing all the applications on QTR ICC > > compatibility probably two or three years ago and PWP made a > > mess of it then and now, Qimage is back to an old problem it > > seems but worse now as I want to print gloss with the higher > > Dmax. > > > > I'm going to measure the targets I got and select the method > > with the tone range that comes near the ideal curve for that > > Dmax. If the HP ABW sans application CM isn't too bad I > > might use that with Qimage for the time being, the QTR > > profile did correct the tone range though but I do not want > > to print from PS. > > > > > > Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst > > > > > > | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | > > | www.pigment-print.com | > > | ( unvollendet ) | > > -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-16 by Roy Harrington
On Dec 16, 2007 11:11 AM, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: > Eric Neilsen wrote: > > Ernst (or anyone that recalls), Could you quickly go over those > differences > > or give us a time frame to look at for info? > > A message from June this year that sums it up best: > > As Roy indicated, BPC is not part of the ICC spec at all: it is an > Adobe abomination, one of which (as is often the case with Adobe) is > not completely specified for third parties to be able to reproduce. > ... > > Mike > > Yes, BPC is not part of the ICC spec but I'd hardly call it an "Adobe abomination". Not having pure-black map to pure-black during ICC conversion I think would be a much more serious abomination. Adobe came up with a scheme to do this and it is documented how they have done it. (see www.color.org, ICC WhitePapers, click on Black Point Compensation) I've included this scheme into the QTR-Create-ICC profiles and found the results identical to the results that Photoshop would produce, so it's easy to reproduce. (I should mention that the generic QTR-Gray Matte/Photo Paper profiles were done as XYZ matrix profiles and do not have the BPC builtin -- they depend on the CMS). Roy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-17 by ferdinand_paris
Qu.1: This thread started buy asking what type of file to drop onto QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe. I have a related question. I print the target and measure it and I get a text file from the MeasureTool. I drop this target onto QTR-Linearize-Data.exe to get the linearisation data. So far so good. But if I want to create an ICC profile, is it this exact same text file that I also drop onto QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe? Or is it a second text file that I get from printing and reading a target printed *WITH* the newly derived linearisation data? I've read the three pdf help files and trawled the archives, and this point is not entirely clear to me. They read like I should use the first text file, but when reading the very useful file "ICC Info.txt" by Roy in the files section, it suggests that ICC profiling is in effect profiling the QTR driver. This suggests to me that I should be using the second text file derived from printing a target using a linearised curve, non? Qu.2: I created both grey and RGB ICC profiles and stored them in the correct folder, but when I opened Photoshop I saw only the grey profile. I discovered that this is because although the two profiles have different file names, they have the same internal profile name. Is this intentional? I would have thought that the RGB profile would have "-RGB" appended to its internal name. Qu.3 How many people are printing via Qimage, and are using its CM options to convert to a QTR profile, and how many others are doing profile conversion prior to reaching Qimage? By way of background, I was around when Roy & Mike first got Qimage recognising QTR ICC profiles, but have been largely absent from the debate since then. Like Ernst, based on experiments that I did at the time, I tend not to trust Qimage's CMS for B&W. I've re-read the archives in this forum on this topic, and particularly from around the middle of the year. It seems to have a lot to do with rendering and BPC. The quote from Roy below seems important. Is it as simple as using BPC for the generic QTR profiles, and not using it for custom profiles? Ferdinand --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote:
> > (I should mention that the generic QTR-Gray Matte/Photo Paper > profiles were done as XYZ matrix profiles and do not have the BPC > builtin -- they depend on the CMS). > > Roy
2007-12-18 by ferdinand_paris
I realise that people are busy at this time of year, but I was hoping to an answer at least to question 1. I'm not quite getting WYSIWYG results either way, and I'd like to know which way I should focus on. Ferdinand --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:
> > Qu.1: This thread started buy asking what type of file to drop onto > QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe. I have a related question. I print the > target and measure it and I get a text file from the MeasureTool. I > drop this target onto QTR-Linearize-Data.exe to get the linearisation > data. So far so good. > > But if I want to create an ICC profile, is it this exact same text > file that I also drop onto QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe? Or is it a > second text file that I get from printing and reading a target printed > *WITH* the newly derived linearisation data? > > I've read the three pdf help files and trawled the archives, and this > point is not entirely clear to me. They read like I should use the > first text file, but when reading the very useful file "ICC Info.txt" > by Roy in the files section, it suggests that ICC profiling is in > effect profiling the QTR driver. This suggests to me that I should be > using the second text file derived from printing a target using a > linearised curve, non? > > > Qu.2: I created both grey and RGB ICC profiles and stored them in the > correct folder, but when I opened Photoshop I saw only the grey > profile. I discovered that this is because although the two profiles > have different file names, they have the same internal profile name. > Is this intentional? I would have thought that the RGB profile would > have "-RGB" appended to its internal name. > > > Qu.3 How many people are printing via Qimage, and are using its CM > options to convert to a QTR profile, and how many others are doing > profile conversion prior to reaching Qimage? > > By way of background, I was around when Roy & Mike first got Qimage > recognising QTR ICC profiles, but have been largely absent from the > debate since then. Like Ernst, based on experiments that I did at the > time, I tend not to trust Qimage's CMS for B&W. I've re-read the > archives in this forum on this topic, and particularly from around the > middle of the year. It seems to have a lot to do with rendering and > BPC. The quote from Roy below seems important. Is it as simple as > using BPC for the generic QTR profiles, and not using it for custom > profiles? > > Ferdinand > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@> wrote: > > > > (I should mention that the generic QTR-Gray Matte/Photo Paper > > profiles were done as XYZ matrix profiles and do not have the BPC > > builtin -- they depend on the CMS). > > > > Roy >
2007-12-19 by Eric Neilsen
* > But if I want to create an ICC profile, is it this exact same text > file that I also drop onto QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe? Or is it a > second text file that I get from printing and reading a target printed > *WITH* the newly derived linearisation data? NO, you print out another 21step test and read it with the linearization applied to it. That is when you arrive at a good "profile". Eric Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 http://e.neilsen.home.att.net http://ericneilsenphotography.com Skype ejprinter _____
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ferdinand_paris Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:05 PM To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: On Using Create ICC * I realise that people are busy at this time of year, but I was hoping to an answer at least to question 1. I'm not quite getting WYSIWYG results either way, and I'd like to know which way I should focus on. Ferdinand --- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote: > > Qu.1: This thread started buy asking what type of file to drop onto > QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe. I have a related question. I print the > target and measure it and I get a text file from the MeasureTool. I > drop this target onto QTR-Linearize-Data.exe to get the linearisation > data. So far so good. . <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=14834347/grpspId=1705019182/msgI d=5737/stime=1198019131/nc1=5008817/nc2=3848607/nc3=4507179> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-19 by Roy Harrington
Hi Ferdinand, On Dec 16, 2007 6:34 PM, ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote: > Qu.1: This thread started buy asking what type of file to drop onto > QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe. I have a related question. I print the > target and measure it and I get a text file from the MeasureTool. I > drop this target onto QTR-Linearize-Data.exe to get the linearisation > data. So far so good. Yes, the operation is simply drop a text file on to one of the programs. QTR-Linearize-Data is for making/linearizing a QTR profile/curve. The other two are for making standard ICC profiles. > But if I want to create an ICC profile, is it this exact same text > file that I also drop onto QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe? Or is it a > second text file that I get from printing and reading a target printed > *WITH* the newly derived linearisation data? The procedure looks very similar but there is an important distinction. You always first create a QTR profile/curve UNLINEARIZED, print out the target with the unlinearized curve, then read data, run QTR-Linearize-Data, and put the data into the curve thereby linearizing it. The ICC scheme is builtin on top of a linearized QTR curve. So you've already done the above. Now print out the target with the linearized curve, read the data, run QTR-Create-ICC (or RGB version). You now get a standard ICC profile. What you've just done is "profiled" the QTR driver with a specific curve and settings. (this may look a little like double-profiling which is a no-no but it's not at all true. the first run is to make a standardized (i.e. linear) print driver. the second is to profile that driver as in ICC color management). > I've read the three pdf help files and trawled the archives, and this > point is not entirely clear to me. They read like I should use the > first text file, but when reading the very useful file "ICC Info.txt" > by Roy in the files section, it suggests that ICC profiling is in > effect profiling the QTR driver. This suggests to me that I should be > using the second text file derived from printing a target using a > linearised curve, non? Yes, as above. > > > > Qu.2: I created both grey and RGB ICC profiles and stored them in the > correct folder, but when I opened Photoshop I saw only the grey > profile. I discovered that this is because although the two profiles > have different file names, they have the same internal profile name. > Is this intentional? I would have thought that the RGB profile would > have "-RGB" appended to its internal name. > You are right, they have the same internal name. I guess I didn't figure on both being used. Photoshop apparently will just show one of them -- I only see the RGB one. > Qu.3 How many people are printing via Qimage, and are using its CM > options to convert to a QTR profile, and how many others are doing > profile conversion prior to reaching Qimage? I don't use Qimage so haven't kept up with changes that may have occurred. If there's any problem or doubt about the ICC conversion doing it in Photoshop should solve the problem. It's very easy to make another generic profile that does the same as QTR-RGB Matte Paper -- this may solve any BPC issue. (Just put "16 96" in a text file and drop it onto QTR-Create-ICC-RGB). I'd like to hear from anyone whether this helps with Qimage, if so I'll change the generic in the next release. Hope this all helps. Roy > > By way of background, I was around when Roy & Mike first got Qimage > recognising QTR ICC profiles, but have been largely absent from the > debate since then. Like Ernst, based on experiments that I did at the > time, I tend not to trust Qimage's CMS for B&W. I've re-read the > archives in this forum on this topic, and particularly from around the > middle of the year. It seems to have a lot to do with rendering and > BPC. The quote from Roy below seems important. Is it as simple as > using BPC for the generic QTR profiles, and not using it for custom > profiles? > > Ferdinand > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote: > > > > (I should mention that the generic QTR-Gray Matte/Photo Paper > > profiles were done as XYZ matrix profiles and do not have the BPC > > builtin -- they depend on the CMS). > > > > Roy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-19 by Roy Harrington
Hi Ferdinand, On Dec 16, 2007 6:34 PM, ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote: > Qu.1: This thread started buy asking what type of file to drop onto > QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe. I have a related question. I print the > target and measure it and I get a text file from the MeasureTool. I > drop this target onto QTR-Linearize-Data.exe to get the linearisation > data. So far so good. Yes, the operation is simply drop a text file on to one of the programs. QTR-Linearize-Data is for making/linearizing a QTR profile/curve. The other two are for making standard ICC profiles. > But if I want to create an ICC profile, is it this exact same text > file that I also drop onto QTR-Create-ICC[-RGB].exe? Or is it a > second text file that I get from printing and reading a target printed > *WITH* the newly derived linearisation data? The procedure looks very similar but there is an important distinction. You always first create a QTR profile/curve UNLINEARIZED, print out the target with the unlinearized curve, then read data, run QTR-Linearize-Data, and put the data into the curve thereby linearizing it. The ICC scheme is builtin on top of a linearized QTR curve. So you've already done the above. Now print out the target with the linearized curve, read the data, run QTR-Create-ICC (or RGB version). You now get a standard ICC profile. What you've just done is "profiled" the QTR driver with a specific curve and settings. (this may look a little like double-profiling which is a no-no but it's not at all true. the first run is to make a standardized (i.e. linear) print driver. the second is to profile that driver as in ICC color management). > I've read the three pdf help files and trawled the archives, and this > point is not entirely clear to me. They read like I should use the > first text file, but when reading the very useful file "ICC Info.txt" > by Roy in the files section, it suggests that ICC profiling is in > effect profiling the QTR driver. This suggests to me that I should be > using the second text file derived from printing a target using a > linearised curve, non? Yes, as above. > > > > Qu.2: I created both grey and RGB ICC profiles and stored them in the > correct folder, but when I opened Photoshop I saw only the grey > profile. I discovered that this is because although the two profiles > have different file names, they have the same internal profile name. > Is this intentional? I would have thought that the RGB profile would > have "-RGB" appended to its internal name. > You are right, they have the same internal name. I guess I didn't figure on both being used. Photoshop apparently will just show one of them -- I only see the RGB one. > Qu.3 How many people are printing via Qimage, and are using its CM > options to convert to a QTR profile, and how many others are doing > profile conversion prior to reaching Qimage? I don't use Qimage so haven't kept up with changes that may have occurred. If there's any problem or doubt about the ICC conversion doing it in Photoshop should solve the problem. It's very easy to make another generic profile that does the same as QTR-RGB Matte Paper -- this may solve any BPC issue. (Just put "16 96" in a text file and drop it onto QTR-Create-ICC-RGB). I'd like to hear from anyone whether this helps with Qimage, if so I'll change the generic in the next release. Hope this all helps. Roy > > By way of background, I was around when Roy & Mike first got Qimage > recognising QTR ICC profiles, but have been largely absent from the > debate since then. Like Ernst, based on experiments that I did at the > time, I tend not to trust Qimage's CMS for B&W. I've re-read the > archives in this forum on this topic, and particularly from around the > middle of the year. It seems to have a lot to do with rendering and > BPC. The quote from Roy below seems important. Is it as simple as > using BPC for the generic QTR profiles, and not using it for custom > profiles? > > Ferdinand > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote: > > > > (I should mention that the generic QTR-Gray Matte/Photo Paper > > profiles were done as XYZ matrix profiles and do not have the BPC > > builtin -- they depend on the CMS). > > > > Roy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-19 by ferdinand_paris
Thanks to Roy and Eric for making the clear the point about which txt file to use for creating a profile. What you say made sense the more I thought about it, and this seems to be what the "Eye-One-ReadMe.pdf" document implies. However if I do as instructed I am finding that my prints and especially the shadows seem a bit darker than the screen (which is also profiled with the i1). While I realise that colour management, linearisation etc are not exact sciences, I guess having spent the big bucks on an i1, I was hoping to get a bit closer. I have remeasured the test strip printed with the linear curves several times, and compared the results. There can be a fair bit of variation (within the range +/- 1%), especially in the highlights. In relation to the internal name for the profile, can I suggest that you append rgb to the internal rgb profile name. If I am printing thought Qimage, then I use the rgb version, and if printing through PS, I use the greyscale version. Thus it is helpful to have both, and to have internal names to indicate which is which. I am still keen to hear about those who are using the CM in Qimage for B&W and those who are not, and if not, why not Roy - can you please explain the following a bit more? I assume that this will create a generic profile *with* BPC. So you literally just have a text file containing "16 96"? Wild! > It's very easy to make another generic profile that does the same > as QTR-RGB Matte Paper -- this may solve any BPC issue. (Just put > "16 96" in a text file and drop it onto QTR-Create-ICC-RGB). F_P
2007-12-19 by Roy Harrington
Yes, it's the smallest, simplest set of measurements -- Lab 96 = dMin and Lab 16 = dMax. One line so they must be a list, figures they must the Lab numbers (what else?), (could have been 0.04 1.68 if you prefer density), sorts them, they span from K = 0 to 100. Basically it fills in the blanks: Gray Lab A B 0 96 0 0 100 16 0 0 Roy > Roy - can you please explain the following a bit more? I assume that > this will create a generic profile *with* BPC. So you literally just > have a text file containing "16 96"? Wild! > > > It's very easy to make another generic profile that does the same > > as QTR-RGB Matte Paper -- this may solve any BPC issue. (Just put > > "16 96" in a text file and drop it onto QTR-Create-ICC-RGB). > > F_P > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-12-19 by Louis Dina
Ferdinand, Blocked up shadows in prints (compared to your monitor) is often due to setting the monitor luminance too high. Some software vendors recommend very high monitor luminance, which I consider too high. If you have an accurate printer profile, I would generally trust it to reproduce fairly accurately. Your Eye One will read the luminance levels accurately and translate those into a profile, with correct density and color (not perfect, but very close). There are really no "user settings" that can skew your results. With monitors, however, the user can choose both the luminance level and the color temperature, which can influence the final display. If your monitor is set to a luminance above 100 cd/m2, this could be your problem. Your image will appear very bright, and during editing, you may be inclined to darken the tones in Photoshop. These edits end up in your final numbers, and ultimately in your print. You would need to view your print under bright lighting to get a good match. When viewed under less brilliant lighting, shadows can look very dark, blocked up, and with little separation. Try calibrating your monitor to about 90 cd/m2 and then compare your monitor to your print and see if this improves your match. Lou --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote: > > Thanks to Roy and Eric for making the clear the point about which txt > file to use for creating a profile. What you say made sense the more > I thought about it, and this seems to be what the "Eye-One- ReadMe.pdf" > document implies. > > However if I do as instructed I am finding that my prints and > especially the shadows seem a bit darker than the screen (which is > also profiled with the i1). While I realise that colour management, > linearisation etc are not exact sciences, I guess having spent the big > bucks on an i1, I was hoping to get a bit closer. I have remeasured > the test strip printed with the linear curves several times, and > compared the results. There can be a fair bit of variation (within > the range +/- 1%), especially in the highlights. > > In relation to the internal name for the profile, can I suggest that > you append rgb to the internal rgb profile name. If I am printing > thought Qimage, then I use the rgb version, and if printing through > PS, I use the greyscale version. Thus it is helpful to have both, and > to have internal names to indicate which is which. > > I am still keen to hear about those who are using the CM in Qimage for > B&W and those who are not, and if not, why not > > Roy - can you please explain the following a bit more? I assume that > this will create a generic profile *with* BPC. So you literally just
> have a text file containing "16 96"? Wild! > > > It's very easy to make another generic profile that does the same > > as QTR-RGB Matte Paper -- this may solve any BPC issue. (Just put > > "16 96" in a text file and drop it onto QTR-Create-ICC-RGB). > > F_P >
2007-12-19 by ferdinand_paris
Lou I have calibrated the screen using the i1 and linearised the QTR using the i1 so I was hoping for some consistency. The X-Rite XR Pro software that I was using for screen calibration gave a range for screen brightness, whereas i1 Match specifies a precise value. I may opt to set it below this level, but first, given the issues with the i1 reading the step wedge in another thread, I think I will start again and proceed carefully. Thanks Ferdinand --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" <lou@...> wrote:
> > Ferdinand, > > Blocked up shadows in prints (compared to your monitor) is often due > to setting the monitor luminance too high. Some software vendors > recommend very high monitor luminance, which I consider too high. > > If you have an accurate printer profile, I would generally trust it > to reproduce fairly accurately. Your Eye One will read the luminance > levels accurately and translate those into a profile, with correct > density and color (not perfect, but very close). There are really > no "user settings" that can skew your results. > > With monitors, however, the user can choose both the luminance level > and the color temperature, which can influence the final display. If > your monitor is set to a luminance above 100 cd/m2, this could be > your problem. Your image will appear very bright, and during > editing, you may be inclined to darken the tones in Photoshop. These > edits end up in your final numbers, and ultimately in your print. > You would need to view your print under bright lighting to get a good > match. When viewed under less brilliant lighting, shadows can look > very dark, blocked up, and with little separation. > > Try calibrating your monitor to about 90 cd/m2 and then compare your > monitor to your print and see if this improves your match. > > Lou
2007-12-20 by ferdinand_paris
I decided to recommence the linearisation process. In doing so I realised that part of my problem with darker than expected shadows may have been at what point in the process I set the "black boost" parameter in the curve definition. I find the "Calibration.pdf" and "Eye-One-ReadMe.pdf" clearer and easier to understand than "User Guide.pdf" (sorry Tom), but the user guide is a little more detailed on issues like black boost. I gather that I turn it off for setting the ink limits and partitioning the black and grey inks (UC on R2400). But if I decide to use it, when do I set it? I now gather that when I first print out the 21*4 step wedge, I need to decide at that stage whether to use the black boost, and only when I have an unlinearised step wedge with a sufficient dMax do I linearise the curve definition with these measurements. The ICC profile is also therefore based on measurements from a linearised step wedge using black boost. Is this correct? In starting again I came across a couple of odd measurements. I compared the unlinearised dMax numbers from my first attempt with those from my second, where I was much more careful in measuring in patch mode. Here is a chart of the two: http://www.ferdinand-paris.com/v1-v2.png I assume that this sort of variation comes from the printer. Or is it from ambient light when the measurements were being taken? Is this sort of variation in measurements taken a couple of days apart normal? I had more confidence in my second set of measurements until I looked at this chart. I wonder if they signify that I need to repartition the inks. Finally, in examining the variation between the four samples in the 4*21 step wedge, I noticed that there was a fair bit of difference in the samples for "30". All the others are pretty close, which I assume indicates good technique, but not so for the "30" samples. The ones at A1 and A3 at the start of a row consistently measured brighter than those at U2 and U4 at the end. Again, I assume that this reflects printer behaviour, but it's odd. Ferdinand --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:
> > Lou > > I have calibrated the screen using the i1 and linearised the QTR using > the i1 so I was hoping for some consistency. The X-Rite XR Pro > software that I was using for screen calibration gave a range for > screen brightness, whereas i1 Match specifies a precise value. I may > opt to set it below this level, but first, given the issues with the > i1 reading the step wedge in another thread, I think I will start > again and proceed carefully. > > Thanks > > Ferdinand > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" <lou@> wrote: > > > > Ferdinand, > > > > Blocked up shadows in prints (compared to your monitor) is often due > > to setting the monitor luminance too high. Some software vendors > > recommend very high monitor luminance, which I consider too high. > > > > If you have an accurate printer profile, I would generally trust it > > to reproduce fairly accurately. Your Eye One will read the luminance > > levels accurately and translate those into a profile, with correct > > density and color (not perfect, but very close). There are really > > no "user settings" that can skew your results. > > > > With monitors, however, the user can choose both the luminance level > > and the color temperature, which can influence the final display. If > > your monitor is set to a luminance above 100 cd/m2, this could be > > your problem. Your image will appear very bright, and during > > editing, you may be inclined to darken the tones in Photoshop. These > > edits end up in your final numbers, and ultimately in your print. > > You would need to view your print under bright lighting to get a good > > match. When viewed under less brilliant lighting, shadows can look > > very dark, blocked up, and with little separation. > > > > Try calibrating your monitor to about 90 cd/m2 and then compare your > > monitor to your print and see if this improves your match. > > > > Lou >
2007-12-20 by Howard Shaw
ferdinand_paris wrote: > I decided to recommence the linearisation process. In doing so I > realised that part of my problem with darker than expected shadows may > have been at what point in the process I set the "black boost" > parameter in the curve definition. I find the "Calibration.pdf" and > "Eye-One-ReadMe.pdf" clearer and easier to understand than "User > Guide.pdf" (sorry Tom), but the user guide is a little more detailed > on issues like black boost. > ... The black boost setting should not be changed after you have applied the linearisation. If you do so the curve will need to be re-linearised. The darker than expected shadows in your print may simply be the result of applying the icc profile. Have a look at this message from Roy: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/message/4497 (about half way down the page). When a typical icc profile for matte paper is applied the the whole image becomes a little darker and the shadows end up being compressed. Watch the histogram in photoshop as you apply the profile. regards Howard
2007-12-20 by Andre Vallejo
Ferdinand: Are you assigning the Adobe RGB profile to the file in PS before going to the print window? That liitle detail solved most of my similar problems... Andr\ufffd
2007-12-20 by ferdinand_paris
--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Howard Shaw <glassman@...> wrote: > The black boost setting should not be changed after you have applied > the linearisation. If you do so the curve will need to be > re-linearised. Thanks for responding. I feel like just another noob asking the same old questions, but it's not for want of reading the pdf help files over and over, and searching these archives. If anyone is working on the documentation, I will have some suggestions about areas where it can be made clearer, particularly in relation to sequencing. > The darker than expected shadows in your print may simply be the > result of applying the icc profile. Have a look at this message from > Roy: > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/message/4497 > (about half way down the page). > > When a typical icc profile for matte paper is applied the the whole > image becomes a little darker and the shadows end up being > compressed. Watch the histogram in photoshop as you apply the > profile. Yes, I realise that the numbers in the file will change when you convert to a different profile. That's the point of converting, not assigning. The issue in this instance is why they change the way they do ... I thought that there was a fair bit of confusion in the post you quoted. I assume that the comment of Roy's that you were referring to was the following: "When you print on matte paper there's a mapping of dMin's and dMax's from the file to the paper. In general you lose more at the shadow/dMax end. So with straight QTR profiles this will usually mean a lighter print because the straight-line pushes the whole range lighter. The idea of Color Management is to do a mapping that better (but not perfectly) matches our perception. This sacrifices some of the shadow separation in favor of midrange density." My version: prints on matte papers with a linearised curve will tend to be lighter because of the characteristics of the paper. So we have to use the ICC profile to push the shadow end to be darker in order to maintain a perceptual match between print and screen, and this will cause some loss of some shadow detail. I'm going to have to think some more about this. There are issues of rendering intent and soft-proofing to consider F_P
2007-12-21 by ferdinand_paris
André Umm ... I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please be more specific. Which profile are you editing in? Are you really assigning rather than converting to the AdobeRGB (colour) profile? What are your CM settings in the print window? Because I print through Qimage with CM off, I convert (not assign) the image to my custom made QTR-RGB profile before I print. I don't think that Qimage is making any significant difference - I did a comparative test with PS-based printing to check this. Ferdinand --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Andre Vallejo <vallejodasilva@...> wrote:
> > Ferdinand: > > Are you assigning the Adobe RGB profile to the file in PS before going > to the print window? That liitle detail solved most of my similar > problems... > > André >
2007-12-23 by ferdinand_paris
Just a quick post to say that I am a happy camper. Things are now properly linearised and profiled and printing well. I corrected two problems. (i) Something had gone seriously wrong in my initial linearisation measurements, as evidenced in this diagram: <http://www.ferdinand-paris.com/v1-v2.png>. This seems to have been caused by my attempts & problems in getting MeasureTool to work in strip mode, but now in 100% patch mode I am getting very consistent albeit slower measurements with little variation between samples. (ii) I was applying the black boost variable in at the wrong point in the process. Now I am getting a much better screen to print match and prints that I am happy with. Thanks to all who helped me stumble through this. F_P