QTR-Quadtone RIP

I have spent the day reading many posts on bronzing and have ended up 
confused!  I have an Epson 2100 with standard Ultrachrome ink and am 
printing on Epson Semi-gloss, Ilford smooth Pearl and Hahnemuhle Fine 
Art Pearl papers.  I have downloaded curves from the Group website 
for the 1st two, but not the Hahnemuhle for which I have used the UC 
Premier Fine Art settings. With all  the papers I have obtained 
pleasing results in most lights, except for the bronzing in certain 
lighting conditions.

Since some of the posts are about 2 years old, has anyone come up 
with a new solution, please?
I am not particularly technical, so it needs to be something quite 
simple!!!

Spraying with Lyson Printguard sounded successful, I will certainly 
try that, or is there a better product on the market now?

Should I try a different paper, or ink or both?

Is there a more recent printer, Epson, or other, that will eliminate 
the bronzing problem?
Any advice would be very  much appreciated.  Thanks

I have spent the day reading many posts on bronzing and have ended up 
confused!  I have an Epson 2100 with standard Ultrachrome ink and am 
printing on Epson Semi-gloss, Ilford smooth Pearl and Hahnemuhle Fine 
Art Pearl papers.  I have downloaded curves from the Group website 
for the 1st two, but not the Hahnemuhle for which I have used the UC 
Premier Fine Art settings. With all  the papers I have obtained 
pleasing results in most lights, except for the bronzing in certain 
lighting conditions.

Since some of the posts are about 2 years old, has anyone come up 
with a new solution, please?
I am not particularly technical, so it needs to be something quite 
simple!!!

Spraying with Lyson Printguard sounded successful, I will certainly 
try that, or is there a better product on the market now?

Should I try a different paper, or ink or both?

Is there a more recent printer, Epson, or other, that will eliminate 
the bronzing problem?
Any advice would be very  much appreciated.  Thanks

Hi Diana,

I am using an Epson R800 and have exactly the problem with bronzing you describe 
below. So far I have been unable to fully and satisfactorily address it,

I see from your thread below that you received no replies, and was wondering whether you 
had been able to find a good solution offline yet...

Thanks,

   Giancarlo


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Diana" <dispitzley@...> wrote:

>
> I have spent the day reading many posts on bronzing and have ended up 
> confused!  I have an Epson 2100 with standard Ultrachrome ink and am 
> printing on Epson Semi-gloss, Ilford smooth Pearl and Hahnemuhle Fine 
> Art Pearl papers.  I have downloaded curves from the Group website 
> for the 1st two, but not the Hahnemuhle for which I have used the UC 
> Premier Fine Art settings. With all  the papers I have obtained 
> pleasing results in most lights, except for the bronzing in certain 
> lighting conditions.
> 
> Since some of the posts are about 2 years old, has anyone come up 
> with a new solution, please?
> I am not particularly technical, so it needs to be something quite 
> simple!!!
> 
> Spraying with Lyson Printguard sounded successful, I will certainly 
> try that, or is there a better product on the market now?
> 
> Should I try a different paper, or ink or both?
> 
> Is there a more recent printer, Epson, or other, that will eliminate 
> the bronzing problem?
> Any advice would be very  much appreciated.  Thanks
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "gcmori" <gcmori@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Diana,
> 
> I am using an Epson R800 and have exactly the problem with bronzing
you describe 
> below. So far I have been unable to fully and satisfactorily address it,
> 
> I see from your thread below that you received no replies, and was
wondering whether you 
> had been able to find a good solution offline yet...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>    Giancarlo
> 

I do not think that there is an answer. To get a neutral print, it is
necessary to use non-black inks. This is because the black inks are
not neutral. And these non-black inks are what causes the bronzing,
which is therfore unavoidable.

Steve

> I see from your thread below that you received no replies, and was
wondering whether you 
> had been able to find a good solution offline yet...

You can eliminate bronzing and gloss differential by adding a
cartridge with gloss optimizer (glop).

I once made some curves for the MIS PRO ultrachrome equivalent color
inkset with glop in the yellow position. 

Those curves are still available on my site:
http://daniel.staver.no/content/download/451/2130/version/3/file/2100-mis-pro.zip

However, you can easily modify any existing curve to use glop as long
as it's placed an ink position not used by the curve you're modifying.

In the Curve Creator, choose 'Load curve' on the ink channel with the
glop, click 'Curve', click 'Point list', and enter pairs of point
values starting from white to black. I used 0 60 100 30 Which outputs
60% glop in the highlights and 30% in the shadows. You may have to
experiment with other values to see what works best for your inkset.

If you go too high you might oversaturate the paper with ink,
resulting in mottling, ink smears and loss of detail.

Hi Steve.

I've read enough about how these printers work to know you're certainly correct. The 
difference I'm seeing experimenting with a few different papers and settings though, 
makes me think that there could/should be a way, if not to eliminate bronzing altogether, 
to at least minimize it to acceptable level. E.g. Kodak pro glossy/luster papers seem to 
display a very minimal amount of bronzing even w/o GLOP.

So, being new to the group, I'm wondering how much actual testing has been done about 
bronzing reduction with OEM inks (since right now a dedicated B&W is not an option for  
me...)

Thanks and best,

   Giancarlo


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "skefford_1" <keff.antispam@...> wrote:

>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "gcmori" <gcmori@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Diana,
> > 
> > I am using an Epson R800 and have exactly the problem with bronzing
> you describe 
> > below. So far I have been unable to fully and satisfactorily address it,
> > 
> > I see from your thread below that you received no replies, and was
> wondering whether you 
> > had been able to find a good solution offline yet...
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> >    Giancarlo
> > 
> 
> I do not think that there is an answer. To get a neutral print, it is
> necessary to use non-black inks. This is because the black inks are
> not neutral. And these non-black inks are what causes the bronzing,
> which is therfore unavoidable.
> 
> Steve
>

Thanks Daniel.

This is useful info. I have not tried placing the GLOP in a color slot. I''l certainly give your 
curves and this technique a try.

Best!

   Giancarlo


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" <daniel@...> wrote:

>
> > I see from your thread below that you received no replies, and was
> wondering whether you 
> > had been able to find a good solution offline yet...
> 
> You can eliminate bronzing and gloss differential by adding a
> cartridge with gloss optimizer (glop).
> 
> I once made some curves for the MIS PRO ultrachrome equivalent color
> inkset with glop in the yellow position. 
> 
> Those curves are still available on my site:
> http://daniel.staver.no/content/download/451/2130/version/3/file/2100-mis-pro.zip
> 
> However, you can easily modify any existing curve to use glop as long
> as it's placed an ink position not used by the curve you're modifying.
> 
> In the Curve Creator, choose 'Load curve' on the ink channel with the
> glop, click 'Curve', click 'Point list', and enter pairs of point
> values starting from white to black. I used 0 60 100 30 Which outputs
> 60% glop in the highlights and 30% in the shadows. You may have to
> experiment with other values to see what works best for your inkset.
> 
> If you go too high you might oversaturate the paper with ink,
> resulting in mottling, ink smears and loss of detail.
>

>... To get a neutral print, it is necessary to use non-black inks. 
> This is because the black inks are not neutral.

Not all carbon is always warm.  A very neutral print can be made with Eboni
MK.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Glossy.pdf and the print
tone graph for the Ilford Gold Fibre when printed with Eboni MK and sprayed
with Premier Art Print Shield.  I don't like having to spray prints, but the
result was about as neutral a print as is possible, with no color inks and
no color artifacts.

Carl and I have been looking at a workflow that uses Gloss Optimizer instead
of Print Shield.  It's not quite as neutral, but close.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3MK-Glossy.pdf 

Unfortunately, even Eboni when diluted prints warm on glossy papers.  So
we'll be experimenting with the 1800 and the UT-RC blended inks next to see
how these do when more smoothness is required than is possible than the 100%
Eboni workflow can deliver.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

One more newbie question: I have the Mac OS X version of QTR and the Curve Creator is 
nowhere to be found. Is it a Windows only app or am I just looking in all the wrong spots?

Thanks,

   Giancarlo



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" <daniel@...> wrote:

>
> > I see from your thread below that you received no replies, and was
> wondering whether you 
> > had been able to find a good solution offline yet...
> 
> You can eliminate bronzing and gloss differential by adding a
> cartridge with gloss optimizer (glop).
> 
> I once made some curves for the MIS PRO ultrachrome equivalent color
> inkset with glop in the yellow position. 
> 
> Those curves are still available on my site:
> http://daniel.staver.no/content/download/451/2130/version/3/file/2100-mis-pro.zip
> 
> However, you can easily modify any existing curve to use glop as long
> as it's placed an ink position not used by the curve you're modifying.
> 
> In the Curve Creator, choose 'Load curve' on the ink channel with the
> glop, click 'Curve', click 'Point list', and enter pairs of point
> values starting from white to black. I used 0 60 100 30 Which outputs
> 60% glop in the highlights and 30% in the shadows. You may have to
> experiment with other values to see what works best for your inkset.
> 
> If you go too high you might oversaturate the paper with ink,
> resulting in mottling, ink smears and loss of detail.
>

> One more newbie question: I have the Mac OS X version of QTR and the
Curve Creator is 
> nowhere to be found. Is it a Windows only app or am I just looking
in all the wrong spots?

Sorry, it's a windows only app. You can create curves on mac too, but
the procedure is different. You have to edit a text file and generate
the curve from that. I don't remember the exact details since I don't
have a mac. The two settings you would need to add for glop in the Y
position are:

LIMIT_Y=100
CURVE_Y="0;60 100;30"

The N_OF_ paremeters will also need adjustment to reflect the changed
ink position. Most likely Y would belong to the N_OF_UNUSED category,
so you would reduce this number by 1.

John
I’d first try GO at 3500.  Makes a noticeable improvement in reducing bronzing using K7 NU on Hahn Photo Rag Baryta.
Wayne

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 7:49 AM, jthacker@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I have a K7 printer with over gloss. It also has the lastest HD inks from inkjet mall. I'm using Richard Boutwell's QTP software to make a profile for Harman Gloss Baryta. I am using the over gloss set at 3000. After making the profile (used a curve and linearization) and printing test images with the over gloss, I am seeing bronzing. I have not yet smoothed the profile or used QLin. Are there any remedies to eliminate the bronzing or reduce it?
> Please advise.
> Cheers,
> John
>
>
>
>
>

The problem with using PKHD ink with a traditional K7 set is the Shade 2 through 7 are very not glossy and PKHD is made with the new carbon that we make pro ink out of so it’s super glossy.

So it gets really tricky to perfectly optimize gloss diff (specifically for GO printed photos) with this new inkset when you want the L*.9 to L*1.6 range dMax of PKHD+GO. The PKHD gets very glossy but you can’t shift to under-print in a traditional overlap sense because this does not make nice on a lot of papers in the first 10 (of 256) shadow patches. (the PK will actually get less glossy with GO and shade 2+PK will get more, and then less, and so-forth).

Here’s an example of an optimized curve for the new PKHD ink that evens the gloss throughout the tonal range so that it can be gloss optimized properly. https://piezography.com/hdpk.png <https://piezography.com/hdpk.png> (this is for carbon k7 in with HDPK on gloss baryta surface papers).

Notice how magenta (shade 4) and cyan (shade 2) actually reverse their TIL in the middle of their peaks and shade 2 (cyan) actually mostly just underprints the HDPK. This required some weird twists to get right . . . and I’m still optimizing for some papers by making one curve with one particular post-go gloss differential and another curve with the opposite post-go gloss differential and then blending the two.

Best,
Walker

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 5:43 PM, richard@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> The traditional QTR curves can be smoothed with the smoothing tool to greatly increase the overlap from one ink to the other to minimize the appearance of the ink transitions. Then you can apply the print shield or hah protective spray as needed. One benefit of using the spray is you can go over the areas where it is needed more as you see fit. 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps, 
> Richard Boutwell
> 
> http://www.richardboutwell.com/ <http://www.richardboutwell.com/>
> http://www.bwmastery.com/ <http://www.bwmastery.com/>
> 
> 
>

Yes. Generally different amounts of GO (sometimes second pass GO) + letting prints dry properly will eliminate the bronzing. The new curves actually have a lower TIL (total ink limit or amount) than the old ones. This goes a long way to minimize bronzing post 30000 go. The trick to it then is to eliminate the gloss differentials. In short, I think John will see both some bronzing and gloss differential if the old curves are used with the new HD Photo Black ink. In general we’ve gotten the new masters to work on a wide amount of paper with one pass of GO unlike the required 2-passes of GO for Baryta papers with the older curves and inks. Curve making makes a difference but certainly not all the difference.

Best and cheers,
Walker

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 6:57 PM, brian_downunda@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I doubt that your residual bronzing is caused by or can be cured by changes to your QTR curve.  Different papers need differing amounts of GO.  Jon Cone once posted on the IJM forum a rough guide to GO amounts by commonly used papers.  
> 
> https://community.inkjetmall.com/t/is-gloss-differential-on-custom-profiling-targets-ok/2416/4 <https://community.inkjetmall.com/t/is-gloss-differential-on-custom-profiling-targets-ok/2416/4>
> 
> My experience (not a lot as mostly I print K6 & K7 on matte) is that it can be hard to totally eliminate bronzing from K7.  But then Epson inks are not totally immune from it either.
> 
> 
> 
> ---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>, <jthacker@...> wrote :
> 
> I have a K7 printer with over gloss. It also has the lastest HD inks from inkjet mall. I'm using Richard Boutwell's QTP software to make a profile for Harman Gloss Baryta. I am using the over gloss set at 3000. After making the profile (used a curve and linearization) and printing test images with the over gloss, I am seeing bronzing. I have not yet smoothed the profile or used QLin. Are there any remedies to eliminate the bronzing or reduce it?
> Please advise.
> Cheers,
> John
> 
> 
> 
>

I’m not sure what printer you have but if you have anything other than a 1400/1430/1500W I’ve built new curves for the HDPK ink. I documented this on the other thread in the other forum (which I accidentally posted too not realizing it was that forum). Just use the master curve and linearize with your tools from Richard. That will do well.

Best,
Walker

> On Sep 12, 2017, at 8:59 PM, jthacker@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Walker,
> 
> Thanks for the information. It is a bit too technical for me. I can read what you are saying and understand each sentence, I think, but I can't put it all together into an executable action. 
> At this point, I'll try a second coat of overgloss, or the spray. If that doesn't work, I'll try a different paper or move back to the Epson all gray inks which I use for printing negatives. I'm less inclined to drive into piezographic tools or custom profiling since IJM does not seem to have any experience with my specific paper Harman Gloss Baryta.
> Cheers,
> John 
> 
>

Walker,Thanks, I will give that a try. Cheers, John 

    On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 6:37 PM, "'forums@...' forums@walkerblackwell.com [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

     I’m not sure what printer you have but if you have anything other than a 1400/1430/1500W I’ve built new curves for the HDPK ink. I documented this on the other thread in the other forum (which I accidentally posted too not realizing it was that forum). Just use the master curve and linearize with your tools from Richard. That will do well.
Best,Walker




On Sep 12, 2017, at 8:59 PM, jthacker@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Walker,Thanks for the information. It is a bit too technical for me. I can read what you are saying and understand each sentence, I think, but I can't put it all together into an executable action. At this point, I'll try a second coat of overgloss, or the spray. If that doesn't work, I'll try a different paper or move back to the Epson all gray inks which I use for printing negatives. I'm less inclined to drive into piezographic tools or custom profiling since IJM does not seem to have any experience with my specific paper Harman Gloss Baryta.Cheers,John

Right here: https://piezography.com/downloads/piezography-community-edition <https://piezography.com/downloads/piezography-community-edition>

Best,
Walker

> On Sep 14, 2017, at 2:32 PM, jthacker@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Walker,
> I seem to have loss the connection as to where to find the Master curve for the HDPK. I don't find it in the download from QTR, which are K7-2880-xxxxx or the 3800-3880-MPS-xxxxx quad curves. Can you please let me know how to find the master curve again?
> Sorry about the inconvenience,
> Cheers,
> John
> 
>

The GO did not work. I tried two passes of GO and still had bronzing. Cheers, John 

    On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 3:35 PM, "'forums@walkerblackwell.com' forums@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

     Yes, either HPS or our GO (gloss optimizer) are required for any gloss K7 Piezography print. This process is a 2-step process and was not built for perfect prints in the first pass. Piezography Pro inks (which we released last year) do the same-time gloss optimization.
Best,Walker


On Sep 19, 2017, at 3:04 PM, jthacker@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Also, I should add the I tried the Hahnemuhle protective Spray and it does resolve the issue --- I don't see any bronzing. Problem is the smell is really overpowering and irritating. I would prefer not to use it in our open studio when clients are present. But it is one solution.
Cheers,
John