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How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-21 by David

I'm wondering if when applying different color inks, even different
black inks, how the printer applies these. Are the colors "mixed" so
that a particular dot of ink can be a mixture of more than one ink
color? And to do this, what would the QTR curve settings (density,
limit) be say if I wanted to lay down only red dots made up of magenta
and yellow inks?   

Or does it lay down the individual colors as separate dots that the
eye sees as a new color--for example, a red color is acutally made up
of separate magenta and yellow dots of ink. 

Best, David.

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-21 by Olivier

> I'm wondering if when applying different color inks, even different
> black inks, how the printer applies these. Are the colors "mixed" so
> that a particular dot of ink can be a mixture of more than one ink
> color? And to do this, what would the QTR curve settings (density,
> limit) be say if I wanted to lay down only red dots made up of magenta
> and yellow inks?   
> 
> Or does it lay down the individual colors as separate dots that the
> eye sees as a new color--for example, a red color is acutally made up
> of separate magenta and yellow dots of ink. 
> 
> Best, David.
>
Both.
Printing in essence is a binary process : a drop or no drop (let's put 
aside dot size for simplicity). On the paper, a color drop alone will 
render that color. If you lay down 2 drops, both will have their 
corresponding primary color.  Now when many drops are laid down some 
will be covering or overlapping each other so an M dot will partly 
cover a Y drop and their will be 4 fractional area coverages : white, 
Y, M and M+Y (R). This process has been well defined by Neugebauer (for 
litterature reference) and a CMJN model delivers 16 different 
fractional area coverages with their own spectral reflectance. Besides, 
light reflection is not just the light hits the surface then is either 
absorbed or reflected, a part is penetrating into the substrate because 
ink is translucid, scaterred and reflected back out of the paper at any 
probabilistic point (can be from where it entered or else), as such you 
have both a substractive and additive color model. The Neugebauer model 
doesn't not take that into account and is being modified by Yule 
Nielsen by an empirical factor (let's call it dot gain correction 
though it's not).
QTR can't do that because many factors are unknown. For instance, you 
can mesure the overall reflectance of a given sample but not the 
individual fractional area coverages to sum them up. However, you don't 
either really need it because QTR curve tool partitions inks based on 
relative density corrected of dot gain. Since many combinations of 
curves will output the targeted levels (BO would also for instance), 
all that is needed is to make the overall output linear. Now add one 
additional variable which is granularity (hope this is the right 
English word, correct me if wrong), and that becomes another game 
because there *is* then a single combination that delivers both best 
achievable linearity and smoothness...but be ready for frustration.

Olivier

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-21 by dlruckus

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
>
 Now add one 
> additional variable which is granularity (hope this is the right 
> English word, correct me if wrong), and that becomes another game 
> because there *is* then a single combination that delivers both best 
> achievable linearity and smoothness...but be ready for frustration.
> 
> Olivier


Hi Olivier. Presumably that is where multiple jets(same tone or
color), varied dot sizes and limits along with fiddling the curves
might come into play - as in some of Paul Rourk's recent work.

Regards
Duane

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-21 by David

Oliver and Duane, thanks for your info. 

Oliver, there is quite a bit that you presented that may be a bit 
technical for me, but I'll re-read and try to understand. 

I'm going to still try using QTR to print in color, and here's what 
I'm thinking: 

For printing Magenta only: 
 * default ink limit: 85
 * black boost: blank

Magenta Ink
 * Density 100
 * Limit: blank 
Otherwise, no changes to gray or toner curves, and no linearization 
(And I might repeat this, only using Cyan). 

For printing with Magenta and Yellow (to get Red), I'd do same 
settings for Magenta and repeat these settings for Yellow. 

I'll print at 1440x1440 super to get the dot structure I need for my 
etching plates. 

I have tried to understand QTR but mostly I'm baffeled by it all, so 
I'm sort of winging it (trying things without knowing what I'm 
doing). 

Any simple advice is appreciated. 


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
> Both.
> Printing in essence is a binary process : a drop or no drop (let's 
put aside dot size for simplicity). On the paper, a color drop alone 
will render that color. If you lay down 2 drops, both will have their 
corresponding primary color.  Now when many drops are laid down some 
will be covering or overlapping each other so an M dot will partly  
cover a Y drop and their will be 4 fractional area coverages: white, 
Y, M and M+Y (R). This process has been well defined by Neugebauer 
(for litterature reference) and a CMJN model delivers 16 different 
> fractional area coverages with their own spectral reflectance. 

Besides, light reflection is not just the light hits the surface then 
is either absorbed or reflected, a part is penetrating into the 
substrate because ink is translucid, scaterred and reflected back out 
of the paper at any probabilistic point (can be from where it entered 
or else), as such you have both a substractive and additive color 
model. 

The Neugebauer model doesn't not take that into account and is being 
modified by Yule Nielsen by an empirical factor (let's call it dot 
gain correction though it's not).

QTR can't do that because many factors are unknown. For instance, you 
can mesure the overall reflectance of a given sample but not the 
individual fractional area coverages to sum them up. However, you 
don't either really need it because QTR curve tool partitions inks 
based on relative density corrected of dot gain. Since many 
combinations of curves will output the targeted levels (BO would also 
for instance), all that is needed is to make the overall output 
linear. Now add one additional variable which is granularity (hope 
this is the right English word, correct me if wrong), and that 
becomes another game because there *is* then a single combination 
that delivers both best achievable linearity and smoothness...but be 
ready for frustration.

> Olivier

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-21 by Olivier

> I'm going to still try using QTR to print in color, and here's what 
> I'm thinking: 
> 
> For printing Magenta only: 
>  * default ink limit: 85
>  * black boost: blank
> 
> Magenta Ink
>  * Density 100
>  * Limit: blank 
> Otherwise, no changes to gray or toner curves, and no linearization 
> (And I might repeat this, only using Cyan). 
> 
> For printing with Magenta and Yellow (to get Red), I'd do same 
> settings for Magenta and repeat these settings for Yellow. 
> 
> I'll print at 1440x1440 super to get the dot structure I need for 
my 
> etching plates. 
> 
> I have tried to understand QTR but mostly I'm baffeled by it all, 
so 
> I'm sort of winging it (trying things without knowing what I'm 
> doing). 
> 
> Any simple advice is appreciated. 


I'm sorry I don't understand what you want to achieve.
Olivier

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-21 by David

Right now I'm printing with matte black ink only at 1440x1440 dpi to 
create digital transparency "positives." I use these in an UV 
exposure unit to create etching plates from UV light sensitive film--
the dots of ink block underlying areas on the plate from being 
exposed and these develop differently than areas that are exposed to 
the UV light. 

My image on the transparency is made up of black dots only, similar 
to a bitmap image, and this creates the "bite" (low spots that hold 
ink) in the etching plate. The problem is that the matte black in 
does not adhere well to the transparency films I'm using and can be 
smudged with my finger. 

I have two solutions: to switch to photo black ink (which is less 
opaque than matte black) or to create the transparency using color 
inks, for example all magenta, or all cyan, or red or green. 

In essence, I'm trying to replace all my black dots of ink with all 
colored dots of ink that I hope will have similar or better UV-light 
blocking capabilities.   

The idea of using colored inks came from someone who uses them for 
digital negatives, and says they give better coverage than black 
inks. 

So I'm trying to find a way (see my settings below) to use color inks 
in place of the black only ink. 

Does that help explain it?  Best, David. 


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm going to still try using QTR to print in color, and here's 
what 
> > I'm thinking: 
> > 
> > For printing Magenta only: 
> >  * default ink limit: 85
> >  * black boost: blank
> > 
> > Magenta Ink
> >  * Density 100
> >  * Limit: blank 

> > Otherwise, no changes to gray or toner curves, and no 
linearization. (And I might repeat this, only using Cyan). 
> > 
> > For printing with Magenta and Yellow (to get Red), I'd do same 
settings for Magenta and repeat these settings for Yellow. 
> > 
> > I'll print at 1440x1440 super to get the dot structure I need for 
my etching plates. 
> > 
> > I have tried to understand QTR but mostly I'm baffeled by it all, 
so I'm sort of winging it (trying things without knowing what I'm 
> > doing).

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-22 by robert49brake

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dkfreed@...> wrote:
" I use these in an UV 
> exposure unit to create etching plates from UV light sensitive film--
> the dots of ink block underlying areas on the plate from being 
> exposed and these develop differently than areas that are exposed to 
> the UV light. 

David, you might find some threads of interest here:

http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/index.php

Look at the Digital Negative section under The Print.

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-22 by joachim oppenheimer

Contact Dan Burkholder for guidance on using color pigment inks.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of David
  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:21 PM
  To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different
color inks


  Right now I'm printing with matte black ink only at 1440x1440 dpi to
  create digital transparency "positives." I use these in an UV
  exposure unit to create etching plates from UV light sensitive film--
  the dots of ink block underlying areas on the plate from being
  exposed and these develop differently than areas that are exposed to
  the UV light.

  My image on the transparency is made up of black dots only, similar
  to a bitmap image, and this creates the "bite" (low spots that hold
  ink) in the etching plate. The problem is that the matte black in
  does not adhere well to the transparency films I'm using and can be
  smudged with my finger.

  I have two solutions: to switch to photo black ink (which is less
  opaque than matte black) or to create the transparency using color
  inks, for example all magenta, or all cyan, or red or green.

  In essence, I'm trying to replace all my black dots of ink with all
  colored dots of ink that I hope will have similar or better UV-light
  blocking capabilities.

  The idea of using colored inks came from someone who uses them for
  digital negatives, and says they give better coverage than black
  inks.

  So I'm trying to find a way (see my settings below) to use color inks
  in place of the black only ink.

  Does that help explain it? Best, David.

  --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
  >
  > > I'm going to still try using QTR to print in color, and here's
  what
  > > I'm thinking:
  > >
  > > For printing Magenta only:
  > > * default ink limit: 85
  > > * black boost: blank
  > >
  > > Magenta Ink
  > > * Density 100
  > > * Limit: blank

  > > Otherwise, no changes to gray or toner curves, and no
  linearization. (And I might repeat this, only using Cyan).
  > >
  > > For printing with Magenta and Yellow (to get Red), I'd do same
  settings for Magenta and repeat these settings for Yellow.
  > >
  > > I'll print at 1440x1440 super to get the dot structure I need for
  my etching plates.
  > >
  > > I have tried to understand QTR but mostly I'm baffeled by it all,
  so I'm sort of winging it (trying things without knowing what I'm
  > > doing).



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-22 by Olivier

> 
> So I'm trying to find a way (see my settings below) to use color inks 
> in place of the black only ink. 
> 
> Does that help explain it?  Best, David. 
> 
I'm not aaware of this but you had some good directions given.
All I can tell you it that you can have QTR laying down any chanel at 
any intensity and at any level you want. Once you know the mix you can 
produce it. 
Olivier

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-22 by David

Thanks Oliver. The problem is I've never found a good explaination of 
the Density and Limit settings for each ink, so I'm sort of making it 
up as I go. I'll try the settings I mentioned and see how it goes, 
though it would be a lot easier if I know what these meant. 

Regards, David. 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
>
> > So I'm trying to find a way (see my settings below) to use color 
inks in place of the black only ink. Does that help explain it?   
> > 
> I'm not aaware of this but you had some good directions given.
> All I can tell you it that you can have QTR laying down any chanel at 
> any intensity and at any level you want. Once you know the mix you 
can 
> produce it. 
> Olivier

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-22 by Olivier

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dkfreed@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Oliver. The problem is I've never found a good explaination of 
> the Density and Limit settings for each ink, so I'm sort of making it 
> up as I go. I'll try the settings I mentioned and see how it goes, 
> though it would be a lot easier if I know what these meant. 
> 
> Regards, David. 
> 
Davidn I'm not sure I totally get the issue.
Now if you problem in setting density and ink limit there's a shortway 
to that. Instead of declaring an ink as a grey ink, go to the "load 
curve", in their you can either use the Point List or the Load Curve 
options. The latter loads a Photoshop acv curve. Basically you draw a 
Photoshop curve that defines your ink usage and you can set anything. 
It's quite convenient.
Olivier

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-22 by David

No, the issue is I have no idea what the density and ink limit settings 
do, and how they would affect two inks, for example, using only yellow 
and cyan to try to make a red. As I said earlier, I'll try just setting 
the ink density of both to 100 and leave the limit blank, and have an 
overall default ink limit of 85. 

David. 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:

> Davidn I'm not sure I totally get the issue.
> Now if you problem in setting density and ink limit there's a 
shortway 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> to that. Instead of declaring an ink as a grey ink, go to the "load 
> curve", in their you can either use the Point List or the Load Curve 
> options. The latter loads a Photoshop acv curve. Basically you draw a 
> Photoshop curve that defines your ink usage and you can set anything. 
> It's quite convenient.
> Olivier
>

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-23 by Eric Neilsen

Dan is a good resource. You might also try looking at the archive of the alt
photo process group. I have avoid some of this type of testing because every
year it seems a new  ink, or printer comes out that completely blows away
the last set up that took days and weeks to develop. I may take that plug
with an ink set I am testing but then again, maybe not..   

 

 

Hours and hours for  one more better set?  Mark Nelson is alos a good source
to look in to for digital neg stuff. 

 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of joachim oppenheimer
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:06 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different
color inks

 

Contact Dan Burkholder for guidance on using color pigment inks.
-----Original Message-----
From: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:21 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different
color inks

Right now I'm printing with matte black ink only at 1440x1440 dpi to
create digital transparency "positives." I use these in an UV
exposure unit to create etching plates from UV light sensitive film--
the dots of ink block underlying areas on the plate from being
exposed and these develop differently than areas that are exposed to
the UV light.

My image on the transparency is made up of black dots only, similar
to a bitmap image, and this creates the "bite" (low spots that hold
ink) in the etching plate. The problem is that the matte black in
does not adhere well to the transparency films I'm using and can be
smudged with my finger.

I have two solutions: to switch to photo black ink (which is less
opaque than matte black) or to create the transparency using color
inks, for example all magenta, or all cyan, or red or green.

In essence, I'm trying to replace all my black dots of ink with all
colored dots of ink that I hope will have similar or better UV-light
blocking capabilities.

The idea of using colored inks came from someone who uses them for
digital negatives, and says they give better coverage than black
inks.

So I'm trying to find a way (see my settings below) to use color inks
in place of the black only ink.

Does that help explain it? Best, David.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
"Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm going to still try using QTR to print in color, and here's
what
> > I'm thinking:
> >
> > For printing Magenta only:
> > * default ink limit: 85
> > * black boost: blank
> >
> > Magenta Ink
> > * Density 100
> > * Limit: blank

> > Otherwise, no changes to gray or toner curves, and no
linearization. (And I might repeat this, only using Cyan).
> >
> > For printing with Magenta and Yellow (to get Red), I'd do same
settings for Magenta and repeat these settings for Yellow.
> >
> > I'll print at 1440x1440 super to get the dot structure I need for
my etching plates.
> >
> > I have tried to understand QTR but mostly I'm baffeled by it all,
so I'm sort of winging it (trying things without knowing what I'm
> > doing).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-23 by dlruckus

>
> No, the issue is I have no idea what the density and ink limit settings 
> do, and how they would affect two inks, for example, using only yellow 
> and cyan to try to make a red. As I said earlier, I'll try just setting 
> the ink density of both to 100 and leave the limit blank, and have an 
> overall default ink limit of 85. 
> 
> David. 
> 
 Hi David.
It might be helpful to just think of the limit as being the quantity
or volume of an ink that is put onto the paper or transparency, with
100% being the maximum you can put down, and the density as being the
maximum darkness of each ink. As you mentioned wanting the grainy or
dotty look since your use requires it, and given that you are Not
making reflective prints but rather an interpositive, I would think
that you would want the maximum limit, ie: 100% for both inks, at
least initially. Density can be ignored as you are trying to mix the
two inks at every point. You want both ink colors to be used over the
entire curve--not partitioned. Just call one color ink the K channel
and use the "duplicate the K curve" option for the other. You wouldn't
have to mess with changing the limit unless there was so much ink
being deposited that it runs or won't dry or something.

I also think it might be best for you, once you find the right color
to use ( not positive but I seem to recall something I read about an
orange shade being best, though one would think a yellow color would
be suitable), to simply mix the shade you need directly from bulk ink
and only use a one channel curve from QTR from that point on. That
would be the same as using the BO curve then. It also would have the
advantage that you would avoid the complications of all the technical
dot mixing that Olivier was talking about.

Regards
Duane

Re: How does the printer / QTR lay down different color inks

2008-02-23 by David

Thanks so much Duane. That's the clearest, most straightforward
explaination of ink limit and density that I've seen, and it goes a
long way to helping me with this project. I've just gotten some sample
transparency sheets from two sources, so I'll try a few different
methods/colors for each.   

Regards, David.  

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote: 
>  Hi David.

> It might be helpful to just think of the limit as being the quantity
or volume of an ink that is put onto the paper or transparency, with
100% being the maximum you can put down, and the density as being the
maximum darkness of each ink. As you mentioned wanting the grainy or
dotty look since your use requires it, and given that you are Not
making reflective prints but . . . I think you want the maximum limit,
ie: 100% for both inks, at least initially. Density can be ignored . .
. at every point. You want both ink colors to be used over the entire
curve--not partitioned. Just call one color ink the K channel and use
the "duplicate the K curve" option for the other. You wouldn't have to
mess with changing the limit unless there was so much ink being
deposited that it runs or won't dry . . . .
> 
> . . . once you find the right color to use (I recall something about
an orange shade being best, though one would think yellow would be
suitable), to simply mix the shade you need directly from bulk ink and
only use a one channel curve from QTR from that point on.
> 
> Regards, Duane

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