QTR-Quadtone RIP

Just downloaded and will start using QTR. The selection of available
pre-made curves seems to be many less than Tom Moore hinted at in his
manual. (This is for Epson R2400, using Windows). There are no
cool-selenium curves for example, and I thought there might be curves
for Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and/or Innova papers, which I want to start
using. Seems to be some other Ilford curves, Epson curves, Hanamuele
curves, and just a few others. Are there other curves that are
equivalent to Ilford GFS or Innova semi-matte? Is there some special
secret place where you can download more curves?

Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP, but
there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems like
QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
Epson driver, do you think?

Many thanks!

I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my R2400.
The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation paper,
was noticeably better.
Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test print² at
www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.

Harry


On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...> wrote:

>  
>  
> SNIP
> 
> 
> Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP, but
> there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
> it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems like
> QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
> likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
> Epson driver, do you think?
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> 
-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry,

Did you use any sort of profile for ABW?

Mike

2008/6/1 Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...>:

> I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my R2400.
> The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation paper,
> was noticeably better.
> Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test print² at
> www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.
>
> Harry
>
> On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>>
>> Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP, but
>> there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
>> it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems like
>> QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
>> likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
>> Epson driver, do you think?
>>
>> Many thanks!
>>
>>
> --
>
> Harry F. Lockwood
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Only the built-in profile.

Print setting: Enhanced matte paper
Color: ABW
Advanced color settings
    Color toning: neutral
    Tone: light
Paper configuration
    Color density: -5%

All courtesy of Clayton Jones who gives a simple and effective prescription
for printing with the R2400.

Harry


On 6/1/08 4:08 PM, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:

>  
>  
> 
> Harry,
> 
> Did you use any sort of profile for ABW?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 2008/6/1 Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...
> <mailto:hflockwood%40verizon.net> >:
>> > I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my R2400.
>> > The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation
>> paper,
>> > was noticeably better.
>> > Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test print² at
>> > www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.
>> >
>> > Harry
>> >
>> > On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...
>> <mailto:kennrabin%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> SNIP
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP, but
>>> >> there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
>>> >> it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems like
>>> >> QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
>>> >> likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
>>> >> Epson driver, do you think?
>>> >>
>>> >> Many thanks!
>>> >>
>>> >>
>> > --
>> >
>> > Harry F. Lockwood
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> > 
>  
>     


-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So without at least doing a Create ICC profile, your comparison of ABW
and QTR is not valid other than to say that with the settings you
chose QTR was better.

Its unfortunate that Epson doesn't do a better job of promoting ABW.
Personally I find with solid profiling its a spectacular solution. I
am yet to see any other B&W solution outperform a properly profiled
ABW, even Cone's K7.

Without profiling QTR preprepared profiles may be a more realiable approach.

Mike



2008/6/1 Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...>:

> Only the built-in profile.
>
> Print setting: Enhanced matte paper
> Color: ABW
> Advanced color settings
> Color toning: neutral
> Tone: light
> Paper configuration
> Color density: -5%
>
> All courtesy of Clayton Jones who gives a simple and effective prescription
> for printing with the R2400.
>
> Harry
>
> On 6/1/08 4:08 PM, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Harry,
>>
>> Did you use any sort of profile for ABW?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> 2008/6/1 Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...
>> <mailto:hflockwood%40verizon.net> >:
>>> > I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my
>>> > R2400.
>>> > The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation
>>> paper,
>>> > was noticeably better.
>>> > Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test print²
>>> > at
>>> > www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.
>>> >
>>> > Harry
>>> >
>>> > On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...
>>> <mailto:kennrabin%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> SNIP
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP,
>>>> >> but
>>>> >> there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
>>>> >> it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems
>>>> >> like
>>>> >> QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
>>>> >> likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
>>>> >> Epson driver, do you think?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Many thanks!
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> > Harry F. Lockwood
>>> >
>>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Harry F. Lockwood
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Michael,

See my interspersed remarks.


On 6/1/08 6:08 PM, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:

        ³So without at least doing a Create ICC profile, your comparison of
ABW
> and QTR is not valid other than to say that with the settings you
> chose QTR was better.²
> 
> You could put it that way, I suppose.  More accurately, the settings were
> those recommended.
> But the test was valid insofar as I defined its limitations.  I wasn¹t trying
> to make a more global assertion.
> 
> ³Its unfortunate that Epson doesn't do a better job of promoting ABW.
> Personally I find with solid profiling its a spectacular solution. I
> am yet to see any other B&W solution outperform a properly profiled
> ABW, even Cone's K7.²
> 
> Have you actually made that comparison?  My experience with K7 (neutral) inks,
> with the supplied profiles, is that the final prints on, say, Han PhotoRag,
> are spectacular (to use a scientific term.)  And how about longevity of K7 vs
> Epson UC?  How does that enter into your thinking?
> 
> Would you be willing to share your ABW profiles so that others could run
> comparisons?
> 
> ³Without profiling QTR preprepared profiles may be a more realiable approach.²
> 
> That was the limit of my claim.  And I am now waiting anxiously for supplies
> from inkjetmall to get back to the K7 inks.
> 
> Harry
> 
> 
> 
> 2008/6/1 Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...
> <mailto:hflockwood%40verizon.net> >:
>> > Only the built-in profile.
>> >
>> > Print setting: Enhanced matte paper
>> > Color: ABW
>> > Advanced color settings
>> > Color toning: neutral
>> > Tone: light
>> > Paper configuration
>> > Color density: -5%
>> >
>> > All courtesy of Clayton Jones who gives a simple and effective prescription
>> > for printing with the R2400.
>> >
>> > Harry
>> >
>> > On 6/1/08 4:08 PM, "Michael King" <drmrking@...
>> <mailto:drmrking%40gmail.com> > wrote:
>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Harry,
>>> >>
>>> >> Did you use any sort of profile for ABW?
>>> >>
>>> >> Mike
>>> >>
>>> >> 2008/6/1 Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...
>>> <mailto:hflockwood%40verizon.net>
>>> >> <mailto:hflockwood%40verizon.net> >:
>>>>> >>> > I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my
>>>>> >>> > R2400.
>>>>> >>> > The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium
>>>>> Presentation
>>>> >>> paper,
>>>>> >>> > was noticeably better.
>>>>> >>> > Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test
>>>>> print²
>>>>> >>> > at
>>>>> >>> > www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Harry
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...
>>>>> <mailto:kennrabin%40yahoo.com>
>>>> >>> <mailto:kennrabin%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>> >> SNIP
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>> >> Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone
RIP,
>>>>>>> >>>> >> but
>>>>>>> >>>> >> there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver,
because
>>>>>>> >>>> >> it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true?
Seems
>>>>>>> >>>> >> like
>>>>>>> >>>> >> QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte,
am I
>>>>>>> >>>> >> likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with
the
>>>>>>> >>>> >> Epson driver, do you think?
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>> >> Many thanks!
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>>> >>
>>>>> >>> > --
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Harry F. Lockwood
-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry,

>> ³Its unfortunate that Epson doesn't do a better job of promoting ABW.
>> Personally I find with solid profiling its a spectacular solution. I
>> am yet to see any other B&W solution outperform a properly profiled
>> ABW, even Cone's K7.²

>Have you actually made that comparison? My experience with K7 (neutral)
>inks, with the supplied profiles, is that the final prints on, say, Han
>PhotoRag, are spectacular (to use a scientific term.)

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't be making the claim :)
I have taken Tyler's K7 print on Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk and
reproduced it with ABW on 7880 to the extent that in blind tests
people can't tell the difference between the prints and nor can I even
on close inspection. I even duplicated the GO overprint (using a QTR
curve on my old 4800).

I will say that the x880 ABW is better than ABW I got from my 4800.
Specifically it has better dithering and that removes some rainbow
color effects when toning.
I am making this claim about the x880 not the x800.

>And how about longevity of K7 vs
> Epson UC? How does that enter into your thinking?

Wilhem gives ABW 100+ years, more than enough for me.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
page 3 of his report rates ABW prints as follows, depending on the paper:

Framed under normal glass: 110 to >205 years
Framed under UV glass: 110 to >300 years
In dark album storage: > 200 years

> Would you be willing to share your ABW profiles so that others could run
> comparisons?

Sure they are QTR Create ICC produced ABW profiles should be good for
7880 and 9880.
I'll post a set of them into the files section in the next day or so.
But if you have a spectro they are really easy to produce for your machine.

Mike

Thanks for the detailed feedback, Mike.  (Just to be clear, though, my
remarks were limited to the R2400.)

Harry


On 6/2/08 9:48 AM, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:
> Harry,
> 
>>> >> ³Its unfortunate that Epson doesn't do a better job of promoting ABW.
>>> >> Personally I find with solid profiling its a spectacular solution. I
>>> >> am yet to see any other B&W solution outperform a properly profiled
>>> >> ABW, even Cone's K7.²
> 
>> >Have you actually made that comparison? My experience with K7 (neutral)
>> >inks, with the supplied profiles, is that the final prints on, say, Han
>> >PhotoRag, are spectacular (to use a scientific term.)
> 
> Yes, otherwise I wouldn't be making the claim :)
> I have taken Tyler's K7 print on Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk and
> reproduced it with ABW on 7880 to the extent that in blind tests
> people can't tell the difference between the prints and nor can I even
> on close inspection. I even duplicated the GO overprint (using a QTR
> curve on my old 4800).
> 
> I will say that the x880 ABW is better than ABW I got from my 4800.
> Specifically it has better dithering and that removes some rainbow
> color effects when toning.
> I am making this claim about the x880 not the x800.
> 
>> >And how about longevity of K7 vs
>> > Epson UC? How does that enter into your thinking?
> 
> Wilhem gives ABW 100+ years, more than enough for me.
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
> page 3 of his report rates ABW prints as follows, depending on the paper:
> 
> Framed under normal glass: 110 to >205 years
> Framed under UV glass: 110 to >300 years
> In dark album storage: > 200 years
> 
>> > Would you be willing to share your ABW profiles so that others could run
>> > comparisons?
> 
> Sure they are QTR Create ICC produced ABW profiles should be good for
> 7880 and 9880.
> I'll post a set of them into the files section in the next day or so.
> But if you have a spectro they are really easy to produce for your machine.
> 
> Mike

-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Thanks for the detailed feedback, Mike. (Just to be clear, though, my
> remarks were limited to the R2400.)

and its my hypothesis that properly profiled ABW on the 2400 will be
as good as QTR.
Though I have not tested this.

Mike

> reproduced it with ABW on 7880 to the
> extent that in blind tests
> people can't tell the difference between the prints

Thank you for your comments Mike!

Unfortunately, I just sold my 7880.  

I am using the Carbon 6 matte black inks in my 7600 right now. I am 
looking for a glossy B&W ink set for the 7600, or for a 2200 that I 
have.

I was thinking of using the Epson K3 inks - K, LK, and LLK - as the 
basis of the inks. With QTR I can select the appropriate channels.  I 
can buy the Epson inks just as cheaply a I can get 3rd party inks.

Any ideas on further dilutions, or just leave it with the 3 inks?  

I may also add a GLOP channel, though I am not sure whose GLOP to 
use. I have heard that the Epson GLOP is still the best, but hard to 
come by enough to fill a 220ml cart, hacking all of those R1800 
carts. ;>)

Whose GLOP are you using? I may just spray for the near term.

Thanks!

Best,
Michael

Michael,


> Unfortunately, I just sold my 7880.

You planning on getting a 7900 /9900?

> I was thinking of using the Epson K3 inks - K, LK, and LLK - as the
> basis of the inks. With QTR I can select the appropriate channels. I
> can buy the Epson inks just as cheaply a I can get 3rd party inks.
>
> Any ideas on further dilutions, or just leave it with the 3 inks?

So certainly with the 7880 it looks like 3 dilutions is enough.

> Whose GLOP are you using? I may just spray for the near term.

I am using Inkjetmall's with one of their empty 4800 carts that I
chipped for the LLK channel.
I am using the 4800 for a 2nd pass GLOP. It works great once I got the
cart working (valve was stuck closed)
and had flushed it through enough to get rid of the ink.

Finally I can print on semigloss without differential.

Mike
>

> You planning on getting a 7900 /9900?
> 

Yes, a 9900.  

I am off work right now.  I have to have shoulder surgery this 
summer, then I have about 6 months of rehabilitation after that. So I 
will not be working and the 7880 would just sit anyway.  

Good timing for me - for once. Early next year is soon enough, I hope 
to have almost 1 more year off of working (at photography), for money 
at least, until I haved to go back.

I also have two 7600's and a 9600. I'll play with those for a while.  
I am working on old images from the last 10 years, a lot of scanning 
and proofing. Nothing for sale, or for clients right now anyway. 


> > Whose GLOP are you using? I may just spray for the near term.
> 
> I am using Inkjetmall's with one of their empty 4800 carts that I
> chipped for the LLK channel.
> I am using the 4800 for a 2nd pass GLOP. It works great
> once I got the cart working (valve was stuck closed)
> and had flushed it through enough to get rid of the ink.
> 
> Finally I can print on semigloss without differential.
> 

Thanks!  I will probably follow the same route.   

I am looking forward to going to almost all "photo black" printing, 
for both color and B&W. I have Premium Semi-Matte, Premium Luster, 
and Premium Semi-Gloss for proofing.  

Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Harman Glossy FB 
Ai, and Innova Glossy Warmtone for final output.  Add a couple of 
canvas' and I should be all set.

I just bought a CIS for the 2200. I think I'll set up the K3 plus 
GLOP inks and test there, then migrate the ink set to the 7600.  I'll 
probably keep the Carbon 6 ink set, but downgrade that to the 2200. 
It is matte only.

I have run about 7 ink sets so far this year in the various machines, 
plus  afew variants.  Having fun. ;>)  

Best,
Michael

> on close inspection. I even duplicated the GO overprint
> (using a QTR curve on my old 4800).
> 

Mike,

How badly does the GLOP mess up the 4800? Are you doing full bleed, or 
a smaller covering that doesn't go to the borders?

Would you be willing to put GLOP in your 7880? (if that were an option)

I am debating whether to install the GLOP in one of my 7600's. Guess I 
will probably test in my 2200 first to see how messy it gets. I have 
heard stories from others.  

The 7600's are so clean, I hate to trash them. Now the 9600 is already 
messy enough, no problem there ... ;>)

Best,
Michael

Michael,

> How badly does the GLOP mess up the 4800? Are you doing full bleed, or
> a smaller covering that doesn't go to the borders?

The latter, but still early days. I am over printing slightly bigger
than the image at the moment. But I am pretty pleased with the
alignment and so I might try actually lining up the GLOP with the
image exactly.

Biggest issue is printing out the colour from the GLOP channel.
I wanted to use the magenta channel so I could still use the 4800 for
matte black white.
But I chickened out as it looked like it was going to be hell to get
rid of the ink tint. So I switched over the LLK and still it took a
while to flush it through.
Good use of some old A2 paper :)  I don't find it too messy.

> Would you be willing to put GLOP in your 7880? (if that were an option)

Yes but I need all my 7880 channels :)
My dream is an Epson  printer with 10 channels incl GLOP and Matte Black.
Maybe Epson will offer a 7900 in that configuration? I can dream.

Mike

> > Would you be willing to put GLOP in your
> 7880? (if that were an option)
> 
> Yes but I need all my 7880 channels :)

Thanks!  I guess I will go ahead and install it in the 7600 then. It 
is an old beast anyway. ;>)


> My dream is an Epson  printer with 10 channels
> incl GLOP and Matte Black. Maybe Epson will
> offer a 7900 in that configuration? I can dream.
> 

Yeah, the question is how long you use it "as designed", and when you 
start to hack it.  

I always need one straight-up, Epson ink, color machine that I can 
trust absolutely for longevity, for prints for clients, etc. So it 
will be a while before the 9900 falls into the "second tier" category 
and I can play with it.

We can probably do without the Orange or Green - depending on subject 
matter - and put the GLOP in.  I don't really need Matte Black, maybe 
if we are still doing 2 passes I will put GLOP there.

I think we are going to have to create our own drivers/RIP pretty 
soon though and run the whole machine!  I wonder what is available as 
open source? 

But then I will have to run Linux/Unix again, blah ... I'd rather 
just make images!!  ;>)

Best,
Michael

Thanks! Good to know. If you have any experience printing to Ilford
Fibre Gold with QTR let me know. Also any of the innova papers.

Kenn

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>
> I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my
R2400.
> The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium
Presentation paper,
> was noticeably better.
> Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test
print² at

> www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.
> 
> Harry
> 
> 
> On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...> wrote:
> 
> >  
> >  
> > SNIP
> > 
> > 
> > Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP, but
> > there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
> > it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems like
> > QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
> > likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
> > Epson driver, do you think?
> > 
> > Many thanks!
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> 
> Harry F. Lockwood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I have found in the past that the Epson paper is a good measure of what to
expect of Han Photo Rag, but, sorry, no experience with other papers.

Harry


On 6/6/08 3:08 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...> wrote:

>  
>  
> 
> Thanks! Good to know. If you have any experience printing to Ilford
> Fibre Gold with QTR let me know. Also any of the innova papers.
> 
> Kenn
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > I did a comparison recently between QTR and the Epson ABW mode on my
> R2400.
>> > The tonal range of the QTR print, on Epson Ultra Premium
> Presentation paper,
>> > was noticeably better.
>> > Run the test yourself with Keith Cooper¹s ³Black and White test
> print² at
>> > www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html.
>> > 
>> > Harry
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 6/1/08 12:30 PM, "kennrabin" <kennrabin@...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > >  
>>> > >  
>>> > > SNIP
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Also -- some photographers I admire have raved about Quadtone RIP, but
>>> > > there was a hint in another post that the Epson R2400 driver, because
>>> > > it had the b/w module, was virtually as good. Is this true? Seems like
>>> > > QTR has more flexibility. If I print on, say, Epson exhib matte, am I
>>> > > likely to get better results "out of the box" with QTR than with the
>>> > > Epson driver, do you think?
>>> > > 
>>> > > Many thanks!
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>> > -- 
>> > 
>> > Harry F. Lockwood
>> > 

-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]