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'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-17 by frankg_photo

I am looking for the best possible Black & White quality attainable
from a 2200 (or I'll consider an upgrade). 

Currently I use the epson uc inkset and have been trying out the QTR
rip & a few papers but primarily Moab Entrada Bright (as opposed to
Natural for the extra bit of punch I seem to get from a whiter base). 

I must say that without having other inksets to compare to, I think
the quality is really good, but as an experienced old-time darkroom
printer, I know it could be still better. 

I originally opted for the UC & QTR because I wanted to be able to use
the same printer for both col and B&W. And I wanted a low hassle solution.

Now I am interested in the more recently introduced baryta papers like
Ilford Gold Fibre Silk which are more reminiscent of the old darkroom
fibre papers, but because the paper has a 'semi gloss' surface sheen,
with my current UC/2200 setup I am getting 'gloss differential' or
'bronzing' or whatever that 'solarised' appearance is called when you
angle the print to the light (particularly a top/back light). 

With the help of some ddg group members I have just tried some Premier
PrintShield and it helps a great deal, but it's a bit of a pain to
spray (especially indoors in these cold northern climes).
I don't know if a different inkset would be all I need?

I am willing to dedicate the 2200 (or upgrade) to get the "ultimate"
B&W quality. So many people have their favourite brands that they are
loyal to, that it's hard to find a definitive review - MIS, Cone,
Epson, HP,....

Thank you for any input,
Frank

Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-22 by Randy Rancier

Frank you may want to also post your question on the Digital Black and White forum at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/?yguid=186091679

Also read Clayton Jones excellent articles, especially the one titled "Technical Issues" at:
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton discusses the Printers that use the Epson UltraChrome K3 inks and there superior 
performance in B&W if you want to have one printer for both color and B&W.

Hope this helps,
Randy

--- In QuadtoneRIP@...m, "frankg_photo" <frankgross@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am looking for the best possible Black & White quality attainable
> from a 2200 (or I'll consider an upgrade). 
> 
> Currently I use the epson uc inkset and have been trying out the QTR
> rip & a few papers but primarily Moab Entrada Bright (as opposed to
> Natural for the extra bit of punch I seem to get from a whiter base). 
> 
> I must say that without having other inksets to compare to, I think
> the quality is really good, but as an experienced old-time darkroom
> printer, I know it could be still better. 
> 
> I originally opted for the UC & QTR because I wanted to be able to use
> the same printer for both col and B&W. And I wanted a low hassle solution.
> 
> Now I am interested in the more recently introduced baryta papers like
> Ilford Gold Fibre Silk which are more reminiscent of the old darkroom
> fibre papers, but because the paper has a 'semi gloss' surface sheen,
> with my current UC/2200 setup I am getting 'gloss differential' or
> 'bronzing' or whatever that 'solarised' appearance is called when you
> angle the print to the light (particularly a top/back light). 
> 
> With the help of some ddg group members I have just tried some Premier
> PrintShield and it helps a great deal, but it's a bit of a pain to
> spray (especially indoors in these cold northern climes).
> I don't know if a different inkset would be all I need?
> 
> I am willing to dedicate the 2200 (or upgrade) to get the "ultimate"
> B&W quality. So many people have their favourite brands that they are
> loyal to, that it's hard to find a definitive review - MIS, Cone,
> Epson, HP,....
> 
> Thank you for any input,
> Frank
>

Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-22 by frankg_photo

Thanks

> Frank you may want to also post your question on the Digital Black
and White forum at:
>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/?yguid=186091679
> 
> Also read Clayton Jones excellent articles, especially the one
titled "Technical Issues" at:
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> Clayton discusses the Printers that use the Epson UltraChrome K3
inks and there superior 
> performance in B&W if you want to have one printer for both color
and B&W.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Randy
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" <frankgross@> wrote:
> >
> > I am looking for the best possible Black & White quality attainable
> > from a 2200 (or I'll consider an upgrade). 
> > 
> > Currently I use the epson uc inkset and have been trying out the QTR
> > rip & a few papers but primarily Moab Entrada Bright (as opposed to
> > Natural for the extra bit of punch I seem to get from a whiter base). 
> > 
> > I must say that without having other inksets to compare to, I think
> > the quality is really good, but as an experienced old-time darkroom
> > printer, I know it could be still better. 
> > 
> > I originally opted for the UC & QTR because I wanted to be able to use
> > the same printer for both col and B&W. And I wanted a low hassle
solution.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > Now I am interested in the more recently introduced baryta papers like
> > Ilford Gold Fibre Silk which are more reminiscent of the old darkroom
> > fibre papers, but because the paper has a 'semi gloss' surface sheen,
> > with my current UC/2200 setup I am getting 'gloss differential' or
> > 'bronzing' or whatever that 'solarised' appearance is called when you
> > angle the print to the light (particularly a top/back light). 
> > 
> > With the help of some ddg group members I have just tried some Premier
> > PrintShield and it helps a great deal, but it's a bit of a pain to
> > spray (especially indoors in these cold northern climes).
> > I don't know if a different inkset would be all I need?
> > 
> > I am willing to dedicate the 2200 (or upgrade) to get the "ultimate"
> > B&W quality. So many people have their favourite brands that they are
> > loyal to, that it's hard to find a definitive review - MIS, Cone,
> > Epson, HP,....
> > 
> > Thank you for any input,
> > Frank
> >
>

Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-24 by Randy Rancier

Frank, there have also been a lot of discussions on the digital B&W forum concerning the superiority of the HP Vivera pigment inks (not the dye based ones) over Epson and Canon; so 
you may want to consider the HP9180. "The HP pigments have done significantly better than 
Epson pigments in Wilhelm Research fade tests. See:
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/Z3100.html
In fact, HP claims to have the "best photo permanence on the market.  See:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/gap_content.jsp?zn=gap&cp=1-315-
374-392%5E27752_4000_100__ "

I have the 9180 and have been very pleased with the color prints I get from it, and I am 
currently experimenting using it for B&W; in the past I have got some beautiful B&W prints 
from it.  I believe HP makes another less expensive 13" model that uses the same inks.

Randy

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-25 by Dileepa Wijesundera

On the inkseparation.psd print when the densities are measured is it  
possible to get a higher density for 100%LM patch compared to K.?
The order I get on Epson Prem Gloss/UT14 inkset on a 1400 printer is
LM,C,M,LM,K
Is this possible or am I doing something wrong?
dileepa
On 24-Feb-09, at 5:54 PM, Randy Rancier wrote:

> Frank, there have also been a lot of discussions on the digital B&W  
> forum concerning the superiority of the HP Vivera pigment inks (not  
> the dye based ones) over Epson and Canon; so
> you may want to consider the HP9180. "The HP pigments have done  
> significantly better than
> Epson pigments in Wilhelm Research fade tests. See:
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/Z3100.html
> In fact, HP claims to have the "best photo permanence on the market.  
> See:
> http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/gap_content.jsp?zn=gap&cp=1-315-
> 374-392%5E27752_4000_100__ "
>
> I have the 9180 and have been very pleased with the color prints I  
> get from it, and I am
> currently experimenting using it for B&W; in the past I have got  
> some beautiful B&W prints
> from it. I believe HP makes another less expensive 13" model that  
> uses the same inks.
>
> Randy
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-26 by Dileepa Wijesundera

Hi Randy
Is this something you experienced or is it just my system,
On the inkseparation.psd print when the densities are measured is it
possible to get a higher density for 100%LM patch compared to K.?
The order I get on Epson Prem Gloss/UT14 inkset on a 1400 printer is
LM,C,M,LM,K
Is this possible or am I doing something wrong? Many thanks
dileepa
On 24-Feb-09, at 5:54 PM, Randy Rancier wrote:

> Frank, there have also been a lot of discussions on the digital B&W  
> forum concerning the superiority of the HP Vivera pigment inks (not  
> the dye based ones) over Epson and Canon; so
> you may want to consider the HP9180. "The HP pigments have done  
> significantly better than
> Epson pigments in Wilhelm Research fade tests. See:
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/Z3100.html
> In fact, HP claims to have the "best photo permanence on the market.  
> See:
> http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/gap_content.jsp?zn=gap&cp=1-315-
> 374-392%5E27752_4000_100__ "
>
> I have the 9180 and have been very pleased with the color prints I  
> get from it, and I am
> currently experimenting using it for B&W; in the past I have got  
> some beautiful B&W prints
> from it. I believe HP makes another less expensive 13" model that  
> uses the same inks.
>
> Randy
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-26 by Randy Rancier

Hey Dileepa, I've found that with glossy paper (my only experience so far is with ILFord 
Gold Fibre Silk IGFS) that I did get higher dmax with the LM and LC inks than the M and C 
inks on the glossy; dmax of over 2.30 with the LM.  The Eboni M ink shouldn't be used 
with glossy unless you are trying for a 100% carbon print on glossy that is somewhat more 
neutral than the warm inks in the M and LM positions; and only with a generous dose of 
glop and then a couple coats of Premier Print Shied after it dries overnight; you got my 
profile for that.

Be sure to take readings for less than the 100% patch as many of the inks once it reaches 
it's dmax at a particular ink limit starts to decline with a heavier ink load.  Also you will 
notice that many of the inks will have a significantly higher dmax after a spray of the print 
shield; see by taking a reading before the spray and then after; doesn't seem to effect 
tones much other than the very dark ones, which is good.

By the way the print that has impressed me the most so far has been on the IGFS 100% 
Carbon with the Eboni and glop and the Print Shield.  I know it's warmer than I'd like and 
grainy looking and I hate having to spray, but this has produced what I consider the 
"richest" looking print yet with the system, achieving a dmax of over 2.50 on IGFS, 
primarily due to the spray of Print Shield.  Also, the shadows have much better separation 
and more detail.

Next week or so I'm going to be experimenting with replacing the cool PK and LK in the C 
and LC positions with HP PK in the C position and a dilute of HP PK with glop in the LC 
positions; see post on the Digital B&W forum, subject: HP PK BO.  i'm going to be testing 
using Cranes Mueso Silver Rag, as Paul Roark has reported geting a dmax in the 2.60's 
and close to 2.70 using with the HP PK and Silver Rag.  I haven't been impressed with the 
shadows using the cool PK inks from the UT-14 on glossy and hoping this change will be 
a positive one.  

If the HP PK doesn't work I will probably go back to the profile using the Eboni and glop 
and spray; I would probably experiment with using a more dilute Eboni for the midtones 
and highlights to try to reduce the graininess and smooth out the tones a bit.

God, I'm tired of all of this experimenting and am looking forward to settling on a 
workflow soon and getting back to the more serious work of working on my portfolio.

Hope this helps,
Randy

Dileepa Wijesundera <dileepa@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Randy
> Is this something you experienced or is it just my system,
> On the inkseparation.psd print when the densities are measured is it
> possible to get a higher density for 100%LM patch compared to K.?
> The order I get on Epson Prem Gloss/UT14 inkset on a 1400 printer is
> LM,C,M,LM,K
> Is this possible or am I doing something wrong? Many thanks
> dileepa

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-26 by Dileepa Wijesundera

Hi Randy
Thank you once again for the valuable information. I did use the 2  
profiles you sent on Ep Gloss and both the warm and cool prints came  
out really well. I need to now go back and develop the curves by using  
the test strips on the epson paper, hence my previous question. Randy  
how do you measure the DMax directly, I use the eye-one pro and the  
measuring software gives the Lab value which i believe is directly  
proportional to the density. Is there a quick and dirty way of ding  
this? Unfortunately I cannot buy the spray where I live and I believe  
most courier companies dont carry this stuff by air. So I am stuck  
with gloss differential or use glop throughout. Thanks again
dileepa
On 26-Feb-09, at 7:33 AM, Randy Rancier wrote:

> Hey Dileepa, I've found that with glossy paper (my only experience  
> so far is with ILFord
> Gold Fibre Silk IGFS) that I did get higher dmax with the LM and LC  
> inks than the M and C
> inks on the glossy; dmax of over 2.30 with the LM. The Eboni M ink  
> shouldn't be used
> with glossy unless you are trying for a 100% carbon print on glossy  
> that is somewhat more
> neutral than the warm inks in the M and LM positions; and only with  
> a generous dose of
> glop and then a couple coats of Premier Print Shied after it dries  
> overnight; you got my
> profile for that.
>
> Be sure to take readings for less than the 100% patch as many of the  
> inks once it reaches
> it's dmax at a particular ink limit starts to decline with a heavier  
> ink load. Also you will
> notice that many of the inks will have a significantly higher dmax  
> after a spray of the print
> shield; see by taking a reading before the spray and then after;  
> doesn't seem to effect
> tones much other than the very dark ones, which is good.
>
> By the way the print that has impressed me the most so far has been  
> on the IGFS 100%
> Carbon with the Eboni and glop and the Print Shield. I know it's  
> warmer than I'd like and
> grainy looking and I hate having to spray, but this has produced  
> what I consider the
> "richest" looking print yet with the system, achieving a dmax of  
> over 2.50 on IGFS,
> primarily due to the spray of Print Shield. Also, the shadows have  
> much better separation
> and more detail.
>
> Next week or so I'm going to be experimenting with replacing the  
> cool PK and LK in the C
> and LC positions with HP PK in the C position and a dilute of HP PK  
> with glop in the LC
> positions; see post on the Digital B&W forum, subject: HP PK BO. i'm  
> going to be testing
> using Cranes Mueso Silver Rag, as Paul Roark has reported geting a  
> dmax in the 2.60's
> and close to 2.70 using with the HP PK and Silver Rag. I haven't  
> been impressed with the
> shadows using the cool PK inks from the UT-14 on glossy and hoping  
> this change will be
> a positive one.
>
> If the HP PK doesn't work I will probably go back to the profile  
> using the Eboni and glop
> and spray; I would probably experiment with using a more dilute  
> Eboni for the midtones
> and highlights to try to reduce the graininess and smooth out the  
> tones a bit.
>
> God, I'm tired of all of this experimenting and am looking forward  
> to settling on a
> workflow soon and getting back to the more serious work of working  
> on my portfolio.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Randy
>
> Dileepa Wijesundera <dileepa@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Randy
> > Is this something you experienced or is it just my system,
> > On the inkseparation.psd print when the densities are measured is it
> > possible to get a higher density for 100%LM patch compared to K.?
> > The order I get on Epson Prem Gloss/UT14 inkset on a 1400 printer is
> > LM,C,M,LM,K
> > Is this possible or am I doing something wrong? Many thanks
> > dileepa
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-02-26 by Randy Rancier

> I use the eye-one pro and the  
> measuring software gives the Lab value which i believe is directly  
> proportional to the density. Is there a quick and dirty way of ding  
> this? 

I'm not sure how to read the density values with the Eye-One, but all it is is the density 
reading sometimes referred to as d=.  And you are right, that the L values is equivalent to 
the density readings, but I'm not sure how they correlate.  Perhaps some of the people out 
there that have an Eye-One can answer how to get the density readings with it.  With the 
Spyder 3 it gives the Lab values as well as the density reading when taking a 
measurement.

> Unfortunately I cannot buy the spray where I live and I believe  
> most courier companies dont carry this stuff by air. So I am stuck  
> with gloss differential or use glop throughout. 

I'm not sure where you live but I haven't had any trouble getting the Premier Print Shield 
shipped to me.  I ordered mine from MIS.  You don't want to make prints using the Eboni 
(M) ink on glossy or satin type papers without spraying them with some kind of protection 
spray, because it will smear, even after extending drying times.  The glop helps but 
doesn't prevent the Eboni from smearing.  Also, the darker density values change a lot 
after spraying, especially the darker tones from the ink in the LM position.  I've noticed 
that without the spray there is some solarization in the darker tones as well as gloss differential and bronzing.  Also the spray appears to change the dmax of this this 
particular profile from about a 2.30 to about a 2.50.  Be sure you are using the right 
profiles or curves as the warm and cool curves I sent you don't use the Eboni ink and don't 
need the spray.  The only one I sent using the Eboni along with glop and the warm light PK 
ink in the LM position requiring the spray was the Eb-IlfordGold-Spray-RR-3-3g63-
5L.txt; there is no warm or cool version of using the Eboni on the Ilford Gold since the 
goal is a more neutral print using 100% carbon inks (with no pigments) than is possible 
with only the warm PK inks which are also 100% carbon.  The cool PK inks have pigments 
added to cool them down.

Randy

Re: 'state of the art' B&W print inkset/printer?

2009-03-02 by mdabrosca

Hi Frank:

I have tested quite a few papers lately and I must say that Harman Gloss (warmtone or bright) 
on my 3800 with Ultrachrome inks is producing some spectacular prints. Compared to Silver 
Rag, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Hahnemuhle and other baryta papers, the images have a most 
wonderful presence. The Harman papers are more affordable than most of the others, and 
they even come in that 'magic' 17x25-inch size. 

I'm just now delving into QTR and making profiles, etc, so I expect to be making even more 
spectacular prints with this beautiful paper very soon.

Good luck!

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