QTR-Quadtone RIP

Just out of curiosity.  Can anyone tell me what kind of separation they are getting on any matte papers in the deep shadows (90-100) with K7 and QTR.  I'd especially like to hear from R1800 users if there are any.   Also, are you getting any artifacts as you transition into the darkest ink?  Nothing negative to do with K7, I'm wondering if Jon Cone has a solution I'm missing in my non-Piezography inksets.

Robert,

Here are the L* readings I measured some time ago with HPR+K7 on the R1900
for RGB 0 - 27
It turned out it wasn't a particularily good batch of HPR I chose to measure
with 256 steps.
often I can get down to L* 16.x

    RGB, L* 0 17.75519 3 18.5508 6 19.38313 9 20.26813 12 21.233 15 22.31181
18 23.18398 21 23.84067 24 24.91842 27 25.61255

So as you can see K7 puts out good seperation between low RBG values. In
fact its pretty much linear across RGB 0 - 255 range. How you get from L* 90
- 100 in your on screen image to something on your printer that shows
seperation in those values is a workflow/profiling issue not a K7 issue.

Mike


2009/8/1 robert49brake <robert49brake@...>

>
>
> Just out of curiosity. Can anyone tell me what kind of separation they are
> getting on any matte papers in the deep shadows (90-100) with K7 and QTR.
> I'd especially like to hear from R1800 users if there are any. Also, are you
> getting any artifacts as you transition into the darkest ink? Nothing
> negative to do with K7, I'm wondering if Jon Cone has a solution I'm missing
> in my non-Piezography inksets.
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Of course I should have said how you get from L* 0 - 10 in your on screen
image ...
Robert shadows are low L* values. I am not 100% sure what you mean by "matte
papers in the deep shadows (90-100)"
What does the 90-100 refer to ?

Mike

2009/8/1 Michael King <drmrking@...>

> Robert,
>
> Here are the L* readings I measured some time ago with HPR+K7 on the R1900
> for RGB 0 - 27
> It turned out it wasn't a particularily good batch of HPR I chose to
> measure with 256 steps.
> often I can get down to L* 16.x
>
>     RGB, L* 0 17.75519 3 18.5508 6 19.38313 9 20.26813 12 21.233 15
> 22.31181 18 23.18398 21 23.84067 24 24.91842 27 25.61255
>
> So as you can see K7 puts out good seperation between low RBG values. In
> fact its pretty much linear across RGB 0 - 255 range. How you get from L* 90
> - 100 in your on screen image to something on your printer that shows
> seperation in those values is a workflow/profiling issue not a K7 issue.
>
> Mike
>
>
> 2009/8/1 robert49brake <robert49brake@...>
>
>
>>
>> Just out of curiosity. Can anyone tell me what kind of separation they are
>> getting on any matte papers in the deep shadows (90-100) with K7 and QTR.
>> I'd especially like to hear from R1800 users if there are any. Also, are you
>> getting any artifacts as you transition into the darkest ink? Nothing
>> negative to do with K7, I'm wondering if Jon Cone has a solution I'm missing
>> in my non-Piezography inksets.
>>
>> 
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Of course I should have said how you get from L* 0 - 10 in your on screen
> image ...
> Robert shadows are low L* values. I am not 100% sure what you mean by "matte
> papers in the deep shadows (90-100)"
> What does the 90-100 refer to ?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 2009/8/1 Michael King <drmrking@...>
> 
> > Robert,
> >
> > Here are the L* readings I measured some time ago with HPR+K7 on the R1900
> > for RGB 0 - 27
> > It turned out it wasn't a particularily good batch of HPR I chose to
> > measure with 256 steps.
> > often I can get down to L* 16.x
> >
> >     RGB, L* 0 17.75519 3 18.5508 6 19.38313 9 20.26813 12 21.233 15
> > 22.31181 18 23.18398 21 23.84067 24 24.91842 27 25.61255
> >
> > So as you can see K7 puts out good seperation between low RBG values. In
> > fact its pretty much linear across RGB 0 - 255 range. How you get from L* 90
> > - 100 in your on screen image to something on your printer that shows
> > seperation in those values is a workflow/profiling issue not a K7 issue.

Thanks, Mike.  I should have been more specific (end of a long day:)  I was refering to the 90-100 steps of a 100 step grayscale.  I can see from your readouts that the Piezography profiles/inksets are getting something I cannot duplicate with QTR and a custom inkset I'm playing with.    The inkset is Eboni Matte Black and 6 dilutions of HP Vivera Black plus glop.  The obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with matte and glossy capabilities.  (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to do all the work:)  Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I decided to play with it myself.  

The hang up on this and a previous UT-3D inkset with the 1800 has been separation in the deepest shadows and artifacts at the transition to the MK ink.  When looking at Cone's .quad files he obviously has a different method of profiling (creating the curve files) for QTR.  One obvious aspect is that he is able to overlay his individual ink curves in a way that QTR, in it's native partitioning, does not.   Everything in QTR seems to be contained in the .quad file instructions to the printer, but, how you get there seems a matter of choice.

I'm happy to note that you are using a 1900.  I think it's close enough to an 1800 to eliminate the printer as the source of the artifacts, or at least there IS a method of profiling that printer that can eliminate them.

Robert

I would just go with K7 matte inks for matte and glossy and spray the glossy
prints.
That what I do, its simple and effective. I get great blacks on glossy L* 4
and below.
I profile the sprayed targets to get soft proof profiles and also to use
convert to ICC when it suits the image.

Mike

2009/8/1 robert49brake <robert49brake@...>

>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > Of course I should have said how you get from L* 0 - 10 in your on screen
> > image ...
> > Robert shadows are low L* values. I am not 100% sure what you mean by
> "matte
> > papers in the deep shadows (90-100)"
> > What does the 90-100 refer to ?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > 2009/8/1 Michael King <drmrking@...>
> >
> > > Robert,
> > >
> > > Here are the L* readings I measured some time ago with HPR+K7 on the
> R1900
> > > for RGB 0 - 27
> > > It turned out it wasn't a particularily good batch of HPR I chose to
> > > measure with 256 steps.
> > > often I can get down to L* 16.x
> > >
> > > RGB, L* 0 17.75519 3 18.5508 6 19.38313 9 20.26813 12 21.233 15
> > > 22.31181 18 23.18398 21 23.84067 24 24.91842 27 25.61255
> > >
> > > So as you can see K7 puts out good seperation between low RBG values.
> In
> > > fact its pretty much linear across RGB 0 - 255 range. How you get from
> L* 90
> > > - 100 in your on screen image to something on your printer that shows
> > > seperation in those values is a workflow/profiling issue not a K7
> issue.
>
> Thanks, Mike. I should have been more specific (end of a long day:) I was
> refering to the 90-100 steps of a 100 step grayscale. I can see from your
> readouts that the Piezography profiles/inksets are getting something I
> cannot duplicate with QTR and a custom inkset I'm playing with. The inkset
> is Eboni Matte Black and 6 dilutions of HP Vivera Black plus glop. The
> obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with matte and glossy
> capabilities. (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to do all the work:)
> Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I decided to play with
> it myself.
>
> The hang up on this and a previous UT-3D inkset with the 1800 has been
> separation in the deepest shadows and artifacts at the transition to the MK
> ink. When looking at Cone's .quad files he obviously has a different method
> of profiling (creating the curve files) for QTR. One obvious aspect is that
> he is able to overlay his individual ink curves in a way that QTR, in it's
> native partitioning, does not. Everything in QTR seems to be contained in
> the .quad file instructions to the printer, but, how you get there seems a
> matter of choice.
>
> I'm happy to note that you are using a 1900. I think it's close enough to
> an 1800 to eliminate the printer as the source of the artifacts, or at least
> there IS a method of profiling that printer that can eliminate them.
>
> Robert
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We do offer a matte and glossy Piezography system for the 3800 printer using Selenium or Warm Neutral K7 inks - with GO and both matte and photo blacks. 


regards,

Jon


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> The obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with matte and glossy capabilities.  (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to do all the work:)  Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I decided to play with it myself.

How about for a 4800?

Rich
www.rmassiephotography.com




We do offer a matte and glossy Piezography system for the 3800 printer using 
Selenium or Warm Neutral K7 inks - with GO and both matte and photo blacks. 


regards,

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Cone <jon@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 9, 2009 10:58 pm
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: K7, QTR and shadows



We do offer a matte and glossy Piezography system for the 3800 printer using 
Selenium or Warm Neutral K7 inks - with GO and both matte and photo blacks. 


regards,

Jon


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> The obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with matte and glossy 
capabilities.  (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to do all the work:)  
Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I decided to play with it 
myself.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Rich,

Could probably make you a custom, but only eight slots with that printer is not going to allow you to run best of matte and best of gloss unless you swap out black inks...   The MPS Black is matte compatible, but has about.1 to .15 less dMax than the regular Piezography matte black (shade 1).

Jon



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, CorrPro96@... wrote:

>
> 
> How about for a 4800?
> 
> Rich
> www.rmassiephotography.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We do offer a matte and glossy Piezography system for the 3800 printer using 
> Selenium or Warm Neutral K7 inks - with GO and both matte and photo blacks. 
> 
> 
> regards,
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Cone <jon@...>
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Aug 9, 2009 10:58 pm
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: K7, QTR and shadows
> 
> 
> 
> We do offer a matte and glossy Piezography system for the 3800 printer using 
> Selenium or Warm Neutral K7 inks - with GO and both matte and photo blacks. 
> 
> 
> regards,
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@> wrote:
> >
> > The obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with matte and glossy 
> capabilities.  (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to do all the work:)  
> Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I decided to play with it 
> myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
> I can see from your readouts that the Piezography profiles/inksets are getting something I cannot duplicate with QTR and a custom inkset I'm playing with.    The inkset is Eboni Matte Black and 6 dilutions of HP Vivera Black plus glop.  The obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with matte and glossy capabilities.  (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to do all the work:)  Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I decided to play with it myself.  
> 
> The hang up on this and a previous UT-3D inkset with the 1800 has been separation in the deepest shadows and artifacts at the transition to the MK ink.  When looking at Cone's .quad files he obviously has a different method of profiling (creating the curve files) for QTR.  One obvious aspect is that he is able to overlay his individual ink curves in a way that QTR, in it's native partitioning, does not.   Everything in QTR seems to be contained in the .quad file instructions to the printer, but, how you get there seems a matter of choice.

I'm currently playing around with a R285, also a 1.5pl printer and I'm planning to play with HP Vivera dilutions as well. I've not decided yet to go for a 3K multi-purpose tonable matte-gloss setup or for a 5K or 6K setup like yourself. 

How you profile with QTR? Just straightforward all inks as gray inks? 

I was considering (but have not tried yet) an alternative approach:
- combine K , LLK and LLLLK in a QTR GRAY curve
- combine LK, LLLK (and LLLLLK if present) in a QTR TONER curve
You can easily simulate this in QTRGui. Of course, ink limits have to be reduced.

In this way you get a much larger overlap between the inks: 3 inks in the darkest area, 4 in most of the tonal range and still 2 in the highlights. This should give (much?) smoother transitions between the inks. Many comments about the Piezograhpic inks are actually about their profiles and their large overlap of inks. 

As I've still to make the dilutions so I can't try this yet, so I've no hands-on experience yet.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Joost

in my experience of trying to create one myself, an overlapping ink profile
is very very hard, I gave up.

Jon Cone gives us one for the K7 inks and I "tune" that to my printer/paper
set up using QTR ICC, Jon will also create a custom one for your specific
printer /paper. I am amazed by the linearity of Jon's profiles.

Paul Roark's website is the one to look at if you are home brewing.

Good luck.

Mike



2009/8/12 Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...>

>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
> > I can see from your readouts that the Piezography profiles/inksets are
> getting something I cannot duplicate with QTR and a custom inkset I'm
> playing with. The inkset is Eboni Matte Black and 6 dilutions of HP Vivera
> Black plus glop. The obvious goal is a dedicated b&w 8 head printer with
> matte and glossy capabilities. (I've been patiently waiting for J. Cone to
> do all the work:) Piezography seems to be going in another direction so I
> decided to play with it myself.
> >
> > The hang up on this and a previous UT-3D inkset with the 1800 has been
> separation in the deepest shadows and artifacts at the transition to the MK
> ink. When looking at Cone's .quad files he obviously has a different method
> of profiling (creating the curve files) for QTR. One obvious aspect is that
> he is able to overlay his individual ink curves in a way that QTR, in it's
> native partitioning, does not. Everything in QTR seems to be contained in
> the .quad file instructions to the printer, but, how you get there seems a
> matter of choice.
>
> I'm currently playing around with a R285, also a 1.5pl printer and I'm
> planning to play with HP Vivera dilutions as well. I've not decided yet to
> go for a 3K multi-purpose tonable matte-gloss setup or for a 5K or 6K setup
> like yourself.
>
> How you profile with QTR? Just straightforward all inks as gray inks?
>
> I was considering (but have not tried yet) an alternative approach:
> - combine K , LLK and LLLLK in a QTR GRAY curve
> - combine LK, LLLK (and LLLLLK if present) in a QTR TONER curve
> You can easily simulate this in QTRGui. Of course, ink limits have to be
> reduced.
>
> In this way you get a much larger overlap between the inks: 3 inks in the
> darkest area, 4 in most of the tonal range and still 2 in the highlights.
> This should give (much?) smoother transitions between the inks. Many
> comments about the Piezograhpic inks are actually about their profiles and
> their large overlap of inks.
>
> As I've still to make the dilutions so I can't try this yet, so I've no
> hands-on experience yet.
>
> Any thoughts or experiences?
>
> Joost
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> in my experience of trying to create one myself, an overlapping ink profile
> is very very hard, I gave up.

hmmmm.... Can you elaborate on what you have tried and what you came across?
 
> Paul Roark's website is the one to look at if you are home brewing.

That's where I usually get my inspiration :-)

Joost