QTR-Quadtone RIP

What are some of the ways to get a neutral black or close to a neutral black?  What are the steps to go about it?

I want to use the standard Epson ink set for the R800 / R1800 which only has one Photo Blk (PK) and one Matte Blk (MK).  I want to use the QTR Curve Creator available for the PC and come up with one curve that is somewhat neutral (not the blending approach of cool, sepia, black, etc ...although I have obtained visually a pretty neutral looking black blend).

I have a scanner and X-Rite 810 densitometer that reads VIS (BW) and R, G, B values.  Also, I'm pretty familiar with using QTR Curve Creator.

I assume the process would apply to any printer / paper combination.

Thanks, Terry

Terry, I assume you have used the 3MK curves where you have 3 cartridges filled with MIS (image specialists) matte black?  That is definitely a warm black.

I have played with what I call 1MK, and 1PK.  I have tried just using one cartridge with a custom curve, and that works pretty well.  I have not noticed any significant banding (which is the rationale for the 3 cartridges simultaneously).  You might like the look of the straight PK color balance.

Otherwise, you could literally do some custom blending.  You could add a little blue/cyan or red color to the black to create your own custom ink mix.  You could mix small batches of black ink with a few different percentages of color.  You might be able to judge the color balance using a swab of the ink on your paper.

When you get the balance you like, then fill a cartridge (or 3) with that mix and use the standard single color curve (e.g. 3mk).

-Tony

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "firstlight2001" <TerryGls@...> wrote:

>
> What are some of the ways to get a neutral black or close to a neutral black?  What are the steps to go about it?
> 
> I want to use the standard Epson ink set for the R800 / R1800 which only has one Photo Blk (PK) and one Matte Blk (MK).  I want to use the QTR Curve Creator available for the PC and come up with one curve that is somewhat neutral (not the blending approach of cool, sepia, black, etc ...although I have obtained visually a pretty neutral looking black blend).
> 
> I have a scanner and X-Rite 810 densitometer that reads VIS (BW) and R, G, B values.  Also, I'm pretty familiar with using QTR Curve Creator.
> 
> I assume the process would apply to any printer / paper combination.
> 
> Thanks, Terry
>

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the suggestions.  I may pursue the third party ink options in the future.  I'll have to try the Epson PK & MK in QTR Curve Creator for the Epson Ultra Prm Luster paper I'm focusing on at this time.

I have made some progress starting with the PK only ink (has green cast on the Luster paper).  I've added some Magenta & Yellow  and ended up with a nice warm tone brown along the lines of LensWorks magazine tone.

Also, bronzing is a big issue and I created a curve in Photoshop for the Gloss (GL) that puts 90% across the entire range dropping off to 5% at 100% black.  I've also printed some with Harman Gloss FB AL paper and noticed bronzing is a lot less.

Do you have any third party ink suggestions for a good Photo Black for the Luster & Glossy papers?

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "arhodes19044" <spamiam@...> wrote:

>
> Terry, I assume you have used the 3MK curves where you have 3 cartridges filled with MIS (image specialists) matte black?  That is definitely a warm black.
> 
> I have played with what I call 1MK, and 1PK.  I have tried just using one cartridge with a custom curve, and that works pretty well.  I have not noticed any significant banding (which is the rationale for the 3 cartridges simultaneously).  You might like the look of the straight PK color balance.
> 
> Otherwise, you could literally do some custom blending.  You could add a little blue/cyan or red color to the black to create your own custom ink mix.  You could mix small batches of black ink with a few different percentages of color.  You might be able to judge the color balance using a swab of the ink on your paper.
> 
> When you get the balance you like, then fill a cartridge (or 3) with that mix and use the standard single color curve (e.g. 3mk).
> 
> -Tony
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "firstlight2001" <TerryGls@> wrote:
> >
> > What are some of the ways to get a neutral black or close to a neutral black?  What are the steps to go about it?
> > 
> > I want to use the standard Epson ink set for the R800 / R1800 which only has one Photo Blk (PK) and one Matte Blk (MK).  I want to use the QTR Curve Creator available for the PC and come up with one curve that is somewhat neutral (not the blending approach of cool, sepia, black, etc ...although I have obtained visually a pretty neutral looking black blend).
> > 
> > I have a scanner and X-Rite 810 densitometer that reads VIS (BW) and R, G, B values.  Also, I'm pretty familiar with using QTR Curve Creator.
> > 
> > I assume the process would apply to any printer / paper combination.
> > 
> > Thanks, Terry
> >
>

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the suggestions.  I may pursue the third party ink options in the future.  I'll have to try the Epson PK & MK in QTR Curve Creator for the Epson Ultra Prm Luster paper I'm focusing on at this time.

I have made some progress starting with the PK only ink (has green cast on the Luster paper).  I've added some Magenta & Yellow  and ended up with a nice warm tone brown along the lines of LensWorks magazine tone.

Also, bronzing is a big issue and I created a curve in Photoshop for the Gloss (GL) that puts 90% across the entire range dropping off to 5% at 100% black.  I've also printed some with Harman Gloss FB AL paper and noticed bronzing is a lot less.

Do you have any third party ink suggestions for a good Photo Black for the Luster & Glossy papers?

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "arhodes19044" <spamiam@...> wrote:

>
> Terry, I assume you have used the 3MK curves where you have 3 cartridges filled with MIS (image specialists) matte black?  That is definitely a warm black.
> 
> I have played with what I call 1MK, and 1PK.  I have tried just using one cartridge with a custom curve, and that works pretty well.  I have not noticed any significant banding (which is the rationale for the 3 cartridges simultaneously).  You might like the look of the straight PK color balance.
> 
> Otherwise, you could literally do some custom blending.  You could add a little blue/cyan or red color to the black to create your own custom ink mix.  You could mix small batches of black ink with a few different percentages of color.  You might be able to judge the color balance using a swab of the ink on your paper.
> 
> When you get the balance you like, then fill a cartridge (or 3) with that mix and use the standard single color curve (e.g. 3mk).
> 
> -Tony
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "firstlight2001" <TerryGls@> wrote:
> >
> > What are some of the ways to get a neutral black or close to a neutral black?  What are the steps to go about it?
> > 
> > I want to use the standard Epson ink set for the R800 / R1800 which only has one Photo Blk (PK) and one Matte Blk (MK).  I want to use the QTR Curve Creator available for the PC and come up with one curve that is somewhat neutral (not the blending approach of cool, sepia, black, etc ...although I have obtained visually a pretty neutral looking black blend).
> > 
> > I have a scanner and X-Rite 810 densitometer that reads VIS (BW) and R, G, B values.  Also, I'm pretty familiar with using QTR Curve Creator.
> > 
> > I assume the process would apply to any printer / paper combination.
> > 
> > Thanks, Terry
> >
>

Use the HP Z3100 Vivera PK black that Paul Roark used in his C6. 
      He said it is as black as Eboni and the same price--or less.  You
      would have to buy the HP cart and extract the ink.  Then, load it
      into an 1800 cart.



      ====================================


      Posted by: "Terry" TerryGls@...
      <mailto:TerryGls@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Neutral%20Black%20R800%20%2F%20R1800>
        firstlight2001 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/firstlight2001>


        Sun Oct 4, 2009 4:39 am (PDT)


Hi Tony,

Thanks for the suggestions. I may pursue the third party ink options in 
the future. I'll have to try the Epson PK & MK in QTR Curve Creator for 
the Epson Ultra Prm Luster paper I'm focusing on at this time.

I have made some progress starting with the PK only ink (has green cast 
on the Luster paper). I've added some Magenta & Yellow and ended up with 
a nice warm tone brown along the lines of LensWorks magazine tone.

Also, bronzing is a big issue and I created a curve in Photoshop for the 
Gloss (GL) that puts 90% across the entire range dropping off to 5% at 
100% black. I've also printed some with Harman Gloss FB AL paper and 
noticed bronzing is a lot less.

Do you have any third party ink suggestions for a good Photo Black for 
the Luster & Glossy papers?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth Rossman <seth@...> wrote:

> Use the HP Z3100 Vivera PK black that Paul Roark used in his C6. 
> He said it is as black as Eboni ...

HP PK is not as dark as Eboni on matte paper.  It makes a good dark, neutral grey with Eboni as the black for matte paper.  I use HP PK in a 1400 in black only mode for my glossy brochures.

When HP PK is diluted with the C6 base (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf) the dilute inkset is very cheap.  It does bronze, however.  HP PK by itself is, of course, considerably more expensive than Eboni bulk.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Seth & Paul ...

Paul,

I've read the 3-4 PDFs and related links to using PK ink for the R800 / R1800 (ESCR800-4-PK) and other various combinations.

If I wanted to keep things simple, since I think I can work my warm LensWork type brown QTR curves to a more neutral black, and only use your PK ink in place of the Epson PK ink, use refillable cartiages, and print on Epson Ultra Prm Luster (I also been printing on Harman Gloss FB Al & a few sheets of Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk, both of which could use less Gloss than I use for the Epson Prm Luster profiles).

What other items would I need to purchase to accomplish?  Would cleaning only the PK position be required?  What if I wanted to return to using the Epson PK cartiage?

As I understand the Dmax would be greater than 2.5 on Epson Luster and even higher on the other two papers?  I'm getting 2.2+ now measured on my X-Rite 810.

BTW - I'm printing at 2880, uni-directional, and adaptive hybird and getting very smooth results.

Thanks to you both for your response.

Terry Glass

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

>
>  Seth Rossman <seth@> wrote:
> 
> > Use the HP Z3100 Vivera PK black that Paul Roark used in his C6. 
> > He said it is as black as Eboni ...
> 
> HP PK is not as dark as Eboni on matte paper.  It makes a good dark, neutral grey with Eboni as the black for matte paper.  I use HP PK in a 1400 in black only mode for my glossy brochures.
> 
> When HP PK is diluted with the C6 base (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf) the dilute inkset is very cheap.  It does bronze, however.  HP PK by itself is, of course, considerably more expensive than Eboni bulk.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"Terry" <TerryGls@...> wrote:

> Paul,
> 
> I've read the 3-4 PDFs and related links to using PK ink for the R800 / R1800 (ESCR800-4-PK) and other various combinations.
> 
> If I wanted to keep things simple,...

Once you leave an established inkset and workflow, you're no longer keeping things simple.

> since I think I can work my warm LensWork type brown QTR curves to a more neutral black, 

> and only use your PK ink in place of the Epson PK ink, 

I don't have a PK.  I have used a lot of MIS PK (warm carbon), I've designed neutralized PKNs that MIS has picked up, and I now use HP PK for brochures.  That's about it.

I write up experiments and have made inkset designs that MIS has commercialized, but I only actually use and am able to offer continuing support to a few.

> use refillable cartiages, 

Yes, they are very handy.  I definitely am a fan of user-filling carts and CIS/CFS units.  

> and print on Epson Ultra Prm Luster ...

Aside from my brochures, I mostly print on matte papers.  Glossy papers have too many side issues for my type of printing.  So, I'm currently a big fan of HP PK black only in a 1400, but aside from that, I don't print much glossy.

I might add that with the HP PK in the 1400 and a QTR BO workflow, I have less bronzing than an inkset that uses dilute inks, but it's still there.  I don't care about it, frankly.  I don't mess with glop.  The HP PK BO approach in the 1400 has no pizza wheel marks, in part, perhaps, because the HP PK, by itself, with excess water in dilute inks and no glop, dries faster -- by the time it reaches the pizza wheels it's not longer tacky.  The HP PK is also microbanding free in my unit and in its current cyan position, unlike the last MIS PKN I tried BO in the 1400.  Again, I use HP PK.  With BO the mileage I get from the Z3100 cart is so good I just don't worry about the cost of that cart from Altex.

> What other items would I need to purchase to accomplish?  Would cleaning only the PK position be required?

Probably that's all you'd need to clean.  Even that may be unnecessary -- but a good idea.  I like to clean if the ink types are different.

With some chips from third parties there is a conflict with the Epson OEM chips.  So, save the Epson carts.  If there is a conflict, it's easy to put the Epson chip on a cart (or the other way around).  Chips can be reset and used for a long time.

>  What if I wanted to return to using the Epson PK cartiage?

No real difference.  Most of this stuff is plug and play -- see what happens.  The third party ink companies have tried to make their products compatible. 

> As I understand the Dmax would be greater than 2.5 on Epson Luster and even higher on the other two papers?

It all depends of paper and ink.  I'm not sure what ink you're looking at. 

>  I'm getting 2.2+ now measured on my X-Rite 810.

The coated PKs keep a higher dmax than the uncoated.  The MIS uncoated will start high, but the glossy comes from a glop that is in the base.  As it dries, the dmax is reduced due to lower gloss.  Some like this lower gloss, and above 2.2, there is very little real world visual difference.

One thing to reiterate, I used a 3-MK workflow in my 1800 because a single channel microbanded.  I'm skeptical that a single PK in an 1800 or 800 will be free from microbanding, but maybe my 1800 is just a bad one.

Good luck with the project.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thanks for all the helpful information.

I see the HP PK Black cart from Atlex (about $95 double pack) and demos on the internet using refillable carts and the chip issues.

I may give this HP PK ink a try.

Thanks,
Terry

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

>
> "Terry" <TerryGls@> wrote:
> 
> > Paul,
> > 
> > I've read the 3-4 PDFs and related links to using PK ink for the R800 / R1800 (ESCR800-4-PK) and other various combinations.
> > 
> > If I wanted to keep things simple,...
> 
> Once you leave an established inkset and workflow, you're no longer keeping things simple.
> 
> > since I think I can work my warm LensWork type brown QTR curves to a more neutral black, 
> 
> > and only use your PK ink in place of the Epson PK ink, 
> 
> I don't have a PK.  I have used a lot of MIS PK (warm carbon), I've designed neutralized PKNs that MIS has picked up, and I now use HP PK for brochures.  That's about it.
> 
> I write up experiments and have made inkset designs that MIS has commercialized, but I only actually use and am able to offer continuing support to a few.
> 
> > use refillable cartiages, 
> 
> Yes, they are very handy.  I definitely am a fan of user-filling carts and CIS/CFS units.  
> 
> > and print on Epson Ultra Prm Luster ...
> 
> Aside from my brochures, I mostly print on matte papers.  Glossy papers have too many side issues for my type of printing.  So, I'm currently a big fan of HP PK black only in a 1400, but aside from that, I don't print much glossy.
> 
> I might add that with the HP PK in the 1400 and a QTR BO workflow, I have less bronzing than an inkset that uses dilute inks, but it's still there.  I don't care about it, frankly.  I don't mess with glop.  The HP PK BO approach in the 1400 has no pizza wheel marks, in part, perhaps, because the HP PK, by itself, with excess water in dilute inks and no glop, dries faster -- by the time it reaches the pizza wheels it's not longer tacky.  The HP PK is also microbanding free in my unit and in its current cyan position, unlike the last MIS PKN I tried BO in the 1400.  Again, I use HP PK.  With BO the mileage I get from the Z3100 cart is so good I just don't worry about the cost of that cart from Altex.
> 
> > What other items would I need to purchase to accomplish?  Would cleaning only the PK position be required?
> 
> Probably that's all you'd need to clean.  Even that may be unnecessary -- but a good idea.  I like to clean if the ink types are different.
> 
> With some chips from third parties there is a conflict with the Epson OEM chips.  So, save the Epson carts.  If there is a conflict, it's easy to put the Epson chip on a cart (or the other way around).  Chips can be reset and used for a long time.
> 
> >  What if I wanted to return to using the Epson PK cartiage?
> 
> No real difference.  Most of this stuff is plug and play -- see what happens.  The third party ink companies have tried to make their products compatible. 
> 
> > As I understand the Dmax would be greater than 2.5 on Epson Luster and even higher on the other two papers?
> 
> It all depends of paper and ink.  I'm not sure what ink you're looking at. 
> 
> >  I'm getting 2.2+ now measured on my X-Rite 810.
> 
> The coated PKs keep a higher dmax than the uncoated.  The MIS uncoated will start high, but the glossy comes from a glop that is in the base.  As it dries, the dmax is reduced due to lower gloss.  Some like this lower gloss, and above 2.2, there is very little real world visual difference.
> 
> One thing to reiterate, I used a 3-MK workflow in my 1800 because a single channel microbanded.  I'm skeptical that a single PK in an 1800 or 800 will be free from microbanding, but maybe my 1800 is just a bad one.
> 
> Good luck with the project.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>