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Problems creating a profile on Mac...

Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-02 by mjmptpd

Hi folks,

I've used QTR on Windows a good bit, but I am trying to get to understand it on a Mac now, and it's giving me some trouble...

I'm trying to linearize a profile that I am creating, and I am getting the error below:

"invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing"

However, the data is constantly increasing.  It goes from 0,0 to 100,100 without flattening out or going down at any point.  I've tried density data and running it through the linearize program to no avail.  I never had this problem with the old Windows version, except when there actually was a problem.  Any suggestions?

Here's the data:

Creating curve Q4800-UCmk-RR-60PMatte-Warm-Lin
LINEARIZE       = "72.67 71.32 69.33 68.03 66.12 63.64 61.23 59.47 57.75 55.53 54.44 53.36 51.78 49.73 48.24 46.78 44.88 43.49 41.69 39.95 38.68 37.02 35.82 34.25 33.1 31.99 30.54 29.83 28.78 27.43 26.77 25.8 24.84 24.22 23.01 22.12 20.97 20.12 19.57 18.23 17.71 16.69 15.7 15.22 14.51 14.05 13.14 11.83 11.61"
LINEARIZE_CURVE = 0,0 2.21,2.08 5.47,4.17 7.6,6.25 10.73,8.33 14.79,10.42 18.74,12.5 21.62,14.58 24.43,16.67 28.07,18.75 29.86,20.83 31.62,22.92 34.21,25 37.57,27.08 40.01,29.17 42.4,31.25 45.51,33.33 47.79,35.42 50.74,37.5 53.59,39.58 55.67,41.67 58.39,43.75 60.35,45.83 62.92,47.92 64.81,50 66.62,52.08 69,54.17 70.16,56.25 71.88,58.33 74.09,60.42 75.17,62.5 76.76,64.58 78.33,66.67 79.35,68.75 81.33,70.83 82.79,72.92 84.67,75 86.06,77.08 86.96,79.17 89.16,81.25 90.01,83.33 91.68,85.42 93.3,87.5 94.09,89.58 95.25,91.67 96,93.75 97.49,95.83 99.64,97.92 100,100
Invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing
  0     0 
 10  2055 **
 21  4448 ***
 31  5953 *****
 42  7370 ******
 53  9127 *******
 63 11024 ********
 74 12963 **********
 85 15997 ************
 95 17600 *************
106 20044 ***************
116 21832 *****************
127 24189 ******************
138 26284 ********************
148 28468 **********************
159 31092 ************************
170 34157 **************************
180 37306 ****************************
191 40625 *******************************
201 44365 **********************************
212 48083 *************************************
223 52298 ****************************************
233 55830 *******************************************
244 60852 **********************************************
255 65535 **************************************************

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-02 by mjmptpd

Just an additional followup question...

I can't seem to figure out how/where the program places the profile files once they are dropped onto the 'drop-quad-profile' app.  Where are they placed?  I'd like to clean up some of the files, and I don't see any way to do that.  Any suggestions?

---Michael


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "mjmptpd" <michael@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi folks,
> 
> I've used QTR on Windows a good bit, but I am trying to get to understand it on a Mac now, and it's giving me some trouble...
> 
> I'm trying to linearize a profile that I am creating, and I am getting the error below:
> 
> "invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing"
> 
> However, the data is constantly increasing.  It goes from 0,0 to 100,100 without flattening out or going down at any point.  I've tried density data and running it through the linearize program to no avail.  I never had this problem with the old Windows version, except when there actually was a problem.  Any suggestions?
> 
> Here's the data:
> 
> Creating curve Q4800-UCmk-RR-60PMatte-Warm-Lin
> LINEARIZE       = "72.67 71.32 69.33 68.03 66.12 63.64 61.23 59.47 57.75 55.53 54.44 53.36 51.78 49.73 48.24 46.78 44.88 43.49 41.69 39.95 38.68 37.02 35.82 34.25 33.1 31.99 30.54 29.83 28.78 27.43 26.77 25.8 24.84 24.22 23.01 22.12 20.97 20.12 19.57 18.23 17.71 16.69 15.7 15.22 14.51 14.05 13.14 11.83 11.61"
> LINEARIZE_CURVE = 0,0 2.21,2.08 5.47,4.17 7.6,6.25 10.73,8.33 14.79,10.42 18.74,12.5 21.62,14.58 24.43,16.67 28.07,18.75 29.86,20.83 31.62,22.92 34.21,25 37.57,27.08 40.01,29.17 42.4,31.25 45.51,33.33 47.79,35.42 50.74,37.5 53.59,39.58 55.67,41.67 58.39,43.75 60.35,45.83 62.92,47.92 64.81,50 66.62,52.08 69,54.17 70.16,56.25 71.88,58.33 74.09,60.42 75.17,62.5 76.76,64.58 78.33,66.67 79.35,68.75 81.33,70.83 82.79,72.92 84.67,75 86.06,77.08 86.96,79.17 89.16,81.25 90.01,83.33 91.68,85.42 93.3,87.5 94.09,89.58 95.25,91.67 96,93.75 97.49,95.83 99.64,97.92 100,100
> Invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing
>   0     0 
>  10  2055 **
>  21  4448 ***
>  31  5953 *****
>  42  7370 ******
>  53  9127 *******
>  63 11024 ********
>  74 12963 **********
>  85 15997 ************
>  95 17600 *************
> 106 20044 ***************
> 116 21832 *****************
> 127 24189 ******************
> 138 26284 ********************
> 148 28468 **********************
> 159 31092 ************************
> 170 34157 **************************
> 180 37306 ****************************
> 191 40625 *******************************
> 201 44365 **********************************
> 212 48083 *************************************
> 223 52298 ****************************************
> 233 55830 *******************************************
> 244 60852 **********************************************
> 255 65535 **************************************************
>

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-02 by mjmptpd

OK, I answered the second question last night.  It just took a while to find where it was placing the QUAD files...

Still no information on the linearize problem...


---Michael

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-03 by Howard Shaw

I would try using less data points, say 21. I seem to remember reading 
on this board in the past that, even though the readings don't actually 
reverse, if the intervals are not reasonably smooth then this error can 
occur. The chances of this happening are increased the more data points 
you have.

regards
Howard

On 02/11/2010 05:34, mjmptpd wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I've used QTR on Windows a good bit, but I am trying to get to understand it on a Mac now, and it's giving me some trouble...
>
> I'm trying to linearize a profile that I am creating, and I am getting the error below:
>
> "invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing"
>
> However, the data is constantly increasing.  It goes from 0,0 to 100,100 without flattening out or going down at any point.  I've tried density data and running it through the linearize program to no avail.  I never had this problem with the old Windows version, except when there actually was a problem.  Any suggestions?
>
> Here's the data:
>
> Creating curve Q4800-UCmk-RR-60PMatte-Warm-Lin
> LINEARIZE       = "72.67 71.32 69.33 68.03 66.12 63.64 61.23 59.47 57.75 55.53 54.44 53.36 51.78 49.73 48.24 46.78 44.88 43.49 41.69 39.95 38.68 37.02 35.82 34.25 33.1 31.99 30.54 29.83 28.78 27.43 26.77 25.8 24.84 24.22 23.01 22.12 20.97 20.12 19.57 18.23 17.71 16.69 15.7 15.22 14.51 14.05 13.14 11.83 11.61"
> LINEARIZE_CURVE = 0,0 2.21,2.08 5.47,4.17 7.6,6.25 10.73,8.33 14.79,10.42 18.74,12.5 21.62,14.58 24.43,16.67 28.07,18.75 29.86,20.83 31.62,22.92 34.21,25 37.57,27.08 40.01,29.17 42.4,31.25 45.51,33.33 47.79,35.42 50.74,37.5 53.59,39.58 55.67,41.67 58.39,43.75 60.35,45.83 62.92,47.92 64.81,50 66.62,52.08 69,54.17 70.16,56.25 71.88,58.33 74.09,60.42 75.17,62.5 76.76,64.58 78.33,66.67 79.35,68.75 81.33,70.83 82.79,72.92 84.67,75 86.06,77.08 86.96,79.17 89.16,81.25 90.01,83.33 91.68,85.42 93.3,87.5 94.09,89.58 95.25,91.67 96,93.75 97.49,95.83 99.64,97.92 100,100
> Invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing
>    0     0
>   10  2055 **
>   21  4448 ***
>   31  5953 *****
>   42  7370 ******
>   53  9127 *******
>   63 11024 ********
>   74 12963 **********
>   85 15997 ************
>   95 17600 *************
> 106 20044 ***************
> 116 21832 *****************
> 127 24189 ******************
> 138 26284 ********************
> 148 28468 **********************
> 159 31092 ************************
> 170 34157 **************************
> 180 37306 ****************************
> 191 40625 *******************************
> 201 44365 **********************************
> 212 48083 *************************************
> 223 52298 ****************************************
> 233 55830 *******************************************
> 244 60852 **********************************************
> 255 65535 **************************************************
>
>
>
>


-- 
--
Howard Shaw
glassman@...
www.howardshaw.org

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-03 by mjmptpd

Howard,

Thanks for the note... It occurred to me last night that the problem might be bumps in the curve, so I worked it over a bit and managed to get it to work.  It's a little odd that the software doesn't smooth out on it's own, but I guess that's what caused the problem. 

When I used the software on the PC, I would input the data into a spreadsheet to ensure a smooth curve (because the paper and inks are not going to have significant bumps; those are entirely the result of reading errors).


---Michael

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Howard Shaw <glassman@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I would try using less data points, say 21. I seem to remember reading 
> on this board in the past that, even though the readings don't actually 
> reverse, if the intervals are not reasonably smooth then this error can 
> occur. The chances of this happening are increased the more data points 
> you have.
> 
> regards
> Howard
> 
> On 02/11/2010 05:34, mjmptpd wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I've used QTR on Windows a good bit, but I am trying to get to understand it on a Mac now, and it's giving me some trouble...
> >
> > I'm trying to linearize a profile that I am creating, and I am getting the error below:
> >
> > "invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing"
> >
> > However, the data is constantly increasing.  It goes from 0,0 to 100,100 without flattening out or going down at any point.  I've tried density data and running it through the linearize program to no avail.  I never had this problem with the old Windows version, except when there actually was a problem.  Any suggestions?
> >
> > Here's the data:
> >
> > Creating curve Q4800-UCmk-RR-60PMatte-Warm-Lin
> > LINEARIZE       = "72.67 71.32 69.33 68.03 66.12 63.64 61.23 59.47 57.75 55.53 54.44 53.36 51.78 49.73 48.24 46.78 44.88 43.49 41.69 39.95 38.68 37.02 35.82 34.25 33.1 31.99 30.54 29.83 28.78 27.43 26.77 25.8 24.84 24.22 23.01 22.12 20.97 20.12 19.57 18.23 17.71 16.69 15.7 15.22 14.51 14.05 13.14 11.83 11.61"
> > LINEARIZE_CURVE = 0,0 2.21,2.08 5.47,4.17 7.6,6.25 10.73,8.33 14.79,10.42 18.74,12.5 21.62,14.58 24.43,16.67 28.07,18.75 29.86,20.83 31.62,22.92 34.21,25 37.57,27.08 40.01,29.17 42.4,31.25 45.51,33.33 47.79,35.42 50.74,37.5 53.59,39.58 55.67,41.67 58.39,43.75 60.35,45.83 62.92,47.92 64.81,50 66.62,52.08 69,54.17 70.16,56.25 71.88,58.33 74.09,60.42 75.17,62.5 76.76,64.58 78.33,66.67 79.35,68.75 81.33,70.83 82.79,72.92 84.67,75 86.06,77.08 86.96,79.17 89.16,81.25 90.01,83.33 91.68,85.42 93.3,87.5 94.09,89.58 95.25,91.67 96,93.75 97.49,95.83 99.64,97.92 100,100
> > Invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing
> >    0     0
> >   10  2055 **
> >   21  4448 ***
> >   31  5953 *****
> >   42  7370 ******
> >   53  9127 *******
> >   63 11024 ********
> >   74 12963 **********
> >   85 15997 ************
> >   95 17600 *************
> > 106 20044 ***************
> > 116 21832 *****************
> > 127 24189 ******************
> > 138 26284 ********************
> > 148 28468 **********************
> > 159 31092 ************************
> > 170 34157 **************************
> > 180 37306 ****************************
> > 191 40625 *******************************
> > 201 44365 **********************************
> > 212 48083 *************************************
> > 223 52298 ****************************************
> > 233 55830 *******************************************
> > 244 60852 **********************************************
> > 255 65535 **************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> Howard Shaw
> glassman@...
> www.howardshaw.org
>

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-04 by grimmieoldfart

Try decreasing the ink limit one or two steps. I seem to be spending alot of time trying to linerize & profile BFK Rives and I often get teh same error message using the 21 Step grayscale and Black Only ink. Not much room for error. Last night for example, I was using an ink limit of 40 for Cyan only and it wouldnt linerize until I dropped it to 30. 

Phil

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "mjmptpd" <michael@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> OK, I answered the second question last night.  It just took a while to find where it was placing the QUAD files...
> 
> Still no information on the linearize problem...
> 
> 
> ---Michael
>

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-05 by mjmptpd

Phil,

That is a good suggestion, and I have seen that problem in the past, but that wasn't the source this time.  I think I had a little too much bumpiness in the density readings, so even though it was constantly increasing, the algorithym for the linearize program was seeing a flat spot that caused it to reject.

This is effectively what happens when the ink limit is set too high as well, but the levelling happens at the end of the curve.


Thanks,


---Michael



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "grimmieoldfart" <grimmieoldfart@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Try decreasing the ink limit one or two steps. I seem to be spending alot of time trying to linerize & profile BFK Rives and I often get teh same error message using the 21 Step grayscale and Black Only ink. Not much room for error. Last night for example, I was using an ink limit of 40 for Cyan only and it wouldnt linerize until I dropped it to 30. 
> 
> Phil
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "mjmptpd" <michael@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > OK, I answered the second question last night.  It just took a while to find where it was placing the QUAD files...
> > 
> > Still no information on the linearize problem...
> > 
> > 
> > ---Michael
> >
>

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-09 by grimmieoldfart

Michael,

when you say "smoothed" out the bumps, what exactly do you mean? I have been working on Canson BFK Rives and on the warm inks, it will curve to about 50% and the 55% will dip but return to normal at 60%, Ex., 50% Lab B = 3, 55% Lab = 2.5, 60% Lab B = 3. Even though the Lab L curve is smooth with no real flat spots, it seems the Lab B curve has influence over the linearization process as well.

Phil

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "mjmptpd" <michael@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Howard,
> 
> Thanks for the note... It occurred to me last night that the problem might be bumps in the curve, so I worked it over a bit and managed to get it to work.  It's a little odd that the software doesn't smooth out on it's own, but I guess that's what caused the problem. 
> 
> When I used the software on the PC, I would input the data into a spreadsheet to ensure a smooth curve (because the paper and inks are not going to have significant bumps; those are entirely the result of reading errors).
> 
> 
> ---Michael
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Howard Shaw <glassman@> wrote:
> >
> > I would try using less data points, say 21. I seem to remember reading 
> > on this board in the past that, even though the readings don't actually 
> > reverse, if the intervals are not reasonably smooth then this error can 
> > occur. The chances of this happening are increased the more data points 
> > you have.
> > 
> > regards
> > Howard
> > 
> > On 02/11/2010 05:34, mjmptpd wrote:
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > I've used QTR on Windows a good bit, but I am trying to get to understand it on a Mac now, and it's giving me some trouble...
> > >
> > > I'm trying to linearize a profile that I am creating, and I am getting the error below:
> > >
> > > "invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing"
> > >
> > > However, the data is constantly increasing.  It goes from 0,0 to 100,100 without flattening out or going down at any point.  I've tried density data and running it through the linearize program to no avail.  I never had this problem with the old Windows version, except when there actually was a problem.  Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Here's the data:
> > >
> > > Creating curve Q4800-UCmk-RR-60PMatte-Warm-Lin
> > > LINEARIZE       = "72.67 71.32 69.33 68.03 66.12 63.64 61.23 59.47 57.75 55.53 54.44 53.36 51.78 49.73 48.24 46.78 44.88 43.49 41.69 39.95 38.68 37.02 35.82 34.25 33.1 31.99 30.54 29.83 28.78 27.43 26.77 25.8 24.84 24.22 23.01 22.12 20.97 20.12 19.57 18.23 17.71 16.69 15.7 15.22 14.51 14.05 13.14 11.83 11.61"
> > > LINEARIZE_CURVE = 0,0 2.21,2.08 5.47,4.17 7.6,6.25 10.73,8.33 14.79,10.42 18.74,12.5 21.62,14.58 24.43,16.67 28.07,18.75 29.86,20.83 31.62,22.92 34.21,25 37.57,27.08 40.01,29.17 42.4,31.25 45.51,33.33 47.79,35.42 50.74,37.5 53.59,39.58 55.67,41.67 58.39,43.75 60.35,45.83 62.92,47.92 64.81,50 66.62,52.08 69,54.17 70.16,56.25 71.88,58.33 74.09,60.42 75.17,62.5 76.76,64.58 78.33,66.67 79.35,68.75 81.33,70.83 82.79,72.92 84.67,75 86.06,77.08 86.96,79.17 89.16,81.25 90.01,83.33 91.68,85.42 93.3,87.5 94.09,89.58 95.25,91.67 96,93.75 97.49,95.83 99.64,97.92 100,100
> > > Invalid linearize curve -- not constantly increasing
> > >    0     0
> > >   10  2055 **
> > >   21  4448 ***
> > >   31  5953 *****
> > >   42  7370 ******
> > >   53  9127 *******
> > >   63 11024 ********
> > >   74 12963 **********
> > >   85 15997 ************
> > >   95 17600 *************
> > > 106 20044 ***************
> > > 116 21832 *****************
> > > 127 24189 ******************
> > > 138 26284 ********************
> > > 148 28468 **********************
> > > 159 31092 ************************
> > > 170 34157 **************************
> > > 180 37306 ****************************
> > > 191 40625 *******************************
> > > 201 44365 **********************************
> > > 212 48083 *************************************
> > > 223 52298 ****************************************
> > > 233 55830 *******************************************
> > > 244 60852 **********************************************
> > > 255 65535 **************************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > --
> > Howard Shaw
> > glassman@
> > www.howardshaw.org
> >
>

Re: Problems creating a profile on Mac...

2010-11-11 by mjmptpd

Phil,

If you are talking about the response curve that an individual ink has, it will not have bunps in the curve (or should not), because inks generally are not going to have a discontinuous response curve on the paper.  They may shoulder off or otherwise not be linear or in an ever-increasing slope curve, but it is unlikely for inks to show a real discontinuity.

So when you make a profile using straight inks (without supplying a specific ink curve of your own), the inks are not going to produce a real erratic behaviour in general, unless something went wrong along the way.

When you take density readings the range of readings may go from about .15 or so for the paper (higher with non-optically brightened paper) up to around 1.8 or so (up to 2.4 or so for the best gloss papers).  That doesn't give a lot of range for the readings to fall if you take the readings out to 1/100 units of density.

Because of this, the readings can have considerable problems with the error resulting in a greater difference than the actual density difference between readings is supposed to be.

When I put the readings into Excel, it is to identify the likely locations of these error readings and nudget the likely high readins down, and up for the likely low readings to ensure that the program does not see a high then low error reading pair as a flat spot which violates the 'constantly increasing' requirement.

Normally, I adjust the readings by no more than 1/2 of the minimum step of the densitometer (1/100) to avoid these problems.  That is consistant with what the max. error should be for the densitometer.

That's a long way of saying that I smooth the curve a little, and it makes the process go more smoothly.

All bets are off if you are using a custom curve for any of the inks that hasn't been very carefully done, though.

---Michael


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "grimmieoldfart" <grimmieoldfart@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Michael,
> 
> when you say "smoothed" out the bumps, what exactly do you mean? I have been working on Canson BFK Rives and on the warm inks, it will curve to about 50% and the 55% will dip but return to normal at 60%, Ex., 50% Lab B = 3, 55% Lab = 2.5, 60% Lab B = 3. Even though the Lab L curve is smooth with no real flat spots, it seems the Lab B curve has influence over the linearization process as well.
> 
> Phil
>

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