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Metamerism with QTR

Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by silverhound905

I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by Ernst Dinkla

On 06/04/2011 02:16 AM, silverhound905 wrote:
> I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
> For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
> I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.

Both prints compared to the same light source and one person checking 
the prints? If yours is too green then mix in some magenta ink to get 
the match. Compare again. When right you have a metameric match. Now go 
outside in daylight and compare again, if they are no longer alike you 
got a metameric failure. If one of the prints shows more (unexpected) 
color shifts than the other in changing light then you can say that 
print has less color constancy to changing light (which often is called 
wrongly "metamerism"). That character of a print usually is related to 
1/ FBA content of the paper so fluorescent behavior (fluorescence 
happens in inks too but not that often), 2/ dyes or pigments that are 
color inconstant 3/ the way inks are laid down: black/grey generation 
instead of composite greys (CMY mixes for grey). 4/ some lesser known 
issues.

So get your ink mixing right, get your paper right.
QTR is most likely not the cause of the color mismatch you see.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by tboleyyh

several things may apply, the first obvious question is whether or not the two prints were indeed the same paper, and if the two prints under a standard viewing system really do match in hue.
More probable though is ink build of the two systems. If paper and general hue are the same, then the ink rebuild in the QTR curves used have higher color ink component to black ink ratio, and the ImagePrint ink build uses more of the 3 k inks, and as little color ink as possible. THat would be my best guess and I've demonstrated the result many times myself working on monochromatic ink builds from OEM color with RIPS. Even how much LK and LK2 are used may give a slightly different metamerism failure result.
One way or another, the two ink builds are slightly different even if they result in similar hue, there are many ways to get there.
There is no doubt QTR could yield the same performance as ImagePrint in this regard, it's the same ink and paper. But you may have to learn how to tweak the curves yourself to maximize that particular issue. Usually it's not a problem, even though slight improvement is probably possible.
Tyler


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silverhound905" <digitalfineart@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
> For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
> I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.
>

Re: Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by silverhound905

Thanks, Tyler, yes both images were printed on Epson Velvet Fine Art. Both images were printed using an Epson 3800 Pro, but one printed through QTR the other through IP. I've only used one curve ( Curve 1 UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm) with no curve blending as my understanding is that Curve Blending is only used for custom created curves (is this correct?) Advanced adjustments at default settings. 

One thing: Some of my ink levels were low and I'm wondering if this may have contributed to the colour shifting. Could this be the problem? 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> several things may apply, the first obvious question is whether or not the two prints were indeed the same paper, and if the two prints under a standard viewing system really do match in hue.
> More probable though is ink build of the two systems. If paper and general hue are the same, then the ink rebuild in the QTR curves used have higher color ink component to black ink ratio, and the ImagePrint ink build uses more of the 3 k inks, and as little color ink as possible. THat would be my best guess and I've demonstrated the result many times myself working on monochromatic ink builds from OEM color with RIPS. Even how much LK and LK2 are used may give a slightly different metamerism failure result.
> One way or another, the two ink builds are slightly different even if they result in similar hue, there are many ways to get there.
> There is no doubt QTR could yield the same performance as ImagePrint in this regard, it's the same ink and paper. But you may have to learn how to tweak the curves yourself to maximize that particular issue. Usually it's not a problem, even though slight improvement is probably possible.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silverhound905" <digitalfineart@> wrote:
> >
> > I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
> > For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
> > I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.
> >
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by Roy Harrington

What you are seeing is not really metamerism.  Its just different color casts.
By using two different print drivers -- QTR and IP -- you are just
getting different
amounts of different inks being used in the prints.   I don't know
exactly what IP does
but in QTR the "warm" curves are just the black inks -- K, LK and LLK.    So the
greenish/yellow tinge you see is just the color of the Epson black inks.  The
idea in QTR is to blend different curves so you get the ink mix that
you personally
like.   There is no need to make custom curves.  Use the ones that are already
there.  Since I'm guessing you want a warmish print use the neutral, warm, and
sepia curves.   The sepia curves are a bit more reddish warm rather
than the warm
curves which are more yellowish warm.  Experiment to see what you like.
You might start with warm and then add in sepia to shift away from the greenish.
If it gets too warm for you substitute more neutral instead of warm.
Trying several small prints is really worth it.  Try extremes and then
narrow down
to what you like.

Roy

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, silverhound905
<digitalfineart@...> wrote:
> Thanks, Tyler, yes both images were printed on Epson Velvet Fine Art. Both images were printed using an Epson 3800 Pro, but one printed through QTR the other through IP. I've only used one curve ( Curve 1 UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm) with no curve blending as my understanding is that Curve Blending is only used for custom created curves (is this correct?) Advanced adjustments at default settings.
>
> One thing: Some of my ink levels were low and I'm wondering if this may have contributed to the colour shifting. Could this be the problem?
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
>>
>> several things may apply, the first obvious question is whether or not the two prints were indeed the same paper, and if the two prints under a standard viewing system really do match in hue.
>> More probable though is ink build of the two systems. If paper and general hue are the same, then the ink rebuild in the QTR curves used have higher color ink component to black ink ratio, and the ImagePrint ink build uses more of the 3 k inks, and as little color ink as possible. THat would be my best guess and I've demonstrated the result many times myself working on monochromatic ink builds from OEM color with RIPS. Even how much LK and LK2 are used may give a slightly different metamerism failure result.
>> One way or another, the two ink builds are slightly different even if they result in similar hue, there are many ways to get there.
>> There is no doubt QTR could yield the same performance as ImagePrint in this regard, it's the same ink and paper. But you may have to learn how to tweak the curves yourself to maximize that particular issue. Usually it's not a problem, even though slight improvement is probably possible.
>> Tyler
>>
>>
>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silverhound905" <digitalfineart@> wrote:
>> >
>> > I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
>> > For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
>> > I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



-- 
Roy Harrington
roy@...
www.harrington.com

Re: Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by tboleyyh

sorry, I misled then.. I assumed since metamerism was the topic, it was in play and the OP was talking about seeing the tinge under a different light source.. ignore what I wrote.. believe these guys <G>.
Indeed the norm is K, LK, and LK2 for the warm curve and there really should be little metamerism, but indeed a yellowish warmth easily dealt with as Roy advises.
Tyler

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Roy Harrington <roy@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> What you are seeing is not really metamerism.  Its just different color casts.
> By using two different print drivers -- QTR and IP -- you are just
> getting different
> amounts of different inks being used in the prints.   I don't know
> exactly what IP does
> but in QTR the "warm" curves are just the black inks -- K, LK and LLK.    So the
> greenish/yellow tinge you see is just the color of the Epson black inks.  The
> idea in QTR is to blend different curves so you get the ink mix that
> you personally
> like.   There is no need to make custom curves.  Use the ones that are already
> there.  Since I'm guessing you want a warmish print use the neutral, warm, and
> sepia curves.   The sepia curves are a bit more reddish warm rather
> than the warm
> curves which are more yellowish warm.  Experiment to see what you like.
> You might start with warm and then add in sepia to shift away from the greenish.
> If it gets too warm for you substitute more neutral instead of warm.
> Trying several small prints is really worth it.  Try extremes and then
> narrow down
> to what you like.
> 
> Roy
> 
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, silverhound905
> <digitalfineart@...> wrote:
> > Thanks, Tyler, yes both images were printed on Epson Velvet Fine Art. Both images were printed using an Epson 3800 Pro, but one printed through QTR the other through IP. I've only used one curve ( Curve 1 UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm) with no curve blending as my understanding is that Curve Blending is only used for custom created curves (is this correct?) Advanced adjustments at default settings.
> >
> > One thing: Some of my ink levels were low and I'm wondering if this may have contributed to the colour shifting. Could this be the problem?
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >>
> >> several things may apply, the first obvious question is whether or not the two prints were indeed the same paper, and if the two prints under a standard viewing system really do match in hue.
> >> More probable though is ink build of the two systems. If paper and general hue are the same, then the ink rebuild in the QTR curves used have higher color ink component to black ink ratio, and the ImagePrint ink build uses more of the 3 k inks, and as little color ink as possible. THat would be my best guess and I've demonstrated the result many times myself working on monochromatic ink builds from OEM color with RIPS. Even how much LK and LK2 are used may give a slightly different metamerism failure result.
> >> One way or another, the two ink builds are slightly different even if they result in similar hue, there are many ways to get there.
> >> There is no doubt QTR could yield the same performance as ImagePrint in this regard, it's the same ink and paper. But you may have to learn how to tweak the curves yourself to maximize that particular issue. Usually it's not a problem, even though slight improvement is probably possible.
> >> Tyler
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silverhound905" <digitalfineart@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
> >> > For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
> >> > I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Roy Harrington
> roy@...
> www.harrington.com
>

Re: Metamerism with QTR

2011-06-04 by silverhound905

Thanks, Roy, I've been experimenting curve percentages with 7 x 5 reductions of an image on one sheet of 17 x 22 VFA paper, I can get 6-up on one sheet. I can now see that using only one curve 'warm' gives that undesirable yellowish tinge, but when I blend curve 1 -warm with a 2nd curve-sepia and 3rd curve-sepia in various percentages, good things start to happen as the final result is becoming more and more what I've been looking forward, and now comparable to ImagePrint. The lighting isn't very good here today, the yellowish cast using one curve was more noticeable in bright natural light. I'd like to compare today's 7x5 prints under the same natural iight conditions.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> sorry, I misled then.. I assumed since metamerism was the topic, it was in play and the OP was talking about seeing the tinge under a different light source.. ignore what I wrote.. believe these guys <G>.
> Indeed the norm is K, LK, and LK2 for the warm curve and there really should be little metamerism, but indeed a yellowish warmth easily dealt with as Roy advises.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Roy Harrington <roy@> wrote:
> >
> > What you are seeing is not really metamerism.  Its just different color casts.
> > By using two different print drivers -- QTR and IP -- you are just
> > getting different
> > amounts of different inks being used in the prints.   I don't know
> > exactly what IP does
> > but in QTR the "warm" curves are just the black inks -- K, LK and LLK.    So the
> > greenish/yellow tinge you see is just the color of the Epson black inks.  The
> > idea in QTR is to blend different curves so you get the ink mix that
> > you personally
> > like.   There is no need to make custom curves.  Use the ones that are already
> > there.  Since I'm guessing you want a warmish print use the neutral, warm, and
> > sepia curves.   The sepia curves are a bit more reddish warm rather
> > than the warm
> > curves which are more yellowish warm.  Experiment to see what you like.
> > You might start with warm and then add in sepia to shift away from the greenish.
> > If it gets too warm for you substitute more neutral instead of warm.
> > Trying several small prints is really worth it.  Try extremes and then
> > narrow down
> > to what you like.
> > 
> > Roy
> > 
> > On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, silverhound905
> > <digitalfineart@> wrote:
> > > Thanks, Tyler, yes both images were printed on Epson Velvet Fine Art. Both images were printed using an Epson 3800 Pro, but one printed through QTR the other through IP. I've only used one curve ( Curve 1 UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm) with no curve blending as my understanding is that Curve Blending is only used for custom created curves (is this correct?) Advanced adjustments at default settings.
> > >
> > > One thing: Some of my ink levels were low and I'm wondering if this may have contributed to the colour shifting. Could this be the problem?
> > >
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> several things may apply, the first obvious question is whether or not the two prints were indeed the same paper, and if the two prints under a standard viewing system really do match in hue.
> > >> More probable though is ink build of the two systems. If paper and general hue are the same, then the ink rebuild in the QTR curves used have higher color ink component to black ink ratio, and the ImagePrint ink build uses more of the 3 k inks, and as little color ink as possible. THat would be my best guess and I've demonstrated the result many times myself working on monochromatic ink builds from OEM color with RIPS. Even how much LK and LK2 are used may give a slightly different metamerism failure result.
> > >> One way or another, the two ink builds are slightly different even if they result in similar hue, there are many ways to get there.
> > >> There is no doubt QTR could yield the same performance as ImagePrint in this regard, it's the same ink and paper. But you may have to learn how to tweak the curves yourself to maximize that particular issue. Usually it's not a problem, even though slight improvement is probably possible.
> > >> Tyler
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "silverhound905" <digitalfineart@> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > I've recently started using QTR for printing monochrome prints and I'm finding that my prints suffer from a slight greenish/yellowish tinge when using the UCmk-EVelvetFineArt-warm curve. I'm using an Epson 3800.
> > >> > For the sake of comparison, I had a friend print the same images using ImagePrint and the prints did not show any noticeable color shifting.
> > >> > I'm not advanced enough yet to start creating my own curves, but I was wondering if there was anyway to minimize the metamerism using the QTR canned profiles.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Roy Harrington
> > roy@
> > www.harrington.com
> >
>

Re: Custom Paper Sizes

2011-06-08 by Alan Vlach

How do I create custom paper sizes for QTR? I have 17" wide paper and would like to print 17 wide by 11 high.

Thanks

Alan

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