QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hello,

I've been evaluating he ICC profile creation tools of QuadToneRIP and
trying to understand my results with it. My interested is specifically
in the profiling tools, so I wanted to try it before buying.

I was able to successfully profile my Epson 3800 using ABW mode and
Canson Infinity Baryta 310g/m2 paper, but the resulting profile seems to
be almost neutral. Soft proofing with it gives me no tonal changes, only
paper / ink color simulation, and prints of the 21 step target show
roughly the same values as before profiling.

I've done a fair bit of homework before coming here and the only
explanation I've come with is that my printer was pretty linear by
default. I've used the Gray gamma 2.2 target provided by Paul Roark,
since most of my images are in AdobeRGB colorspace and I print a lot
from Lightroom. Using the original untagged target from the Eye-One
folder gives me the same results (almost no change by applying profile),
but a totally different gamma curve, as expected.

In an attempt to troubleshoot it, I've profiled a HP black and white
laser printer. This device was highly unlinear to begin with and, this
time, I was able to see a big change on the curves after outputting with
the ICC profile.

Could anyone help me to assess these results and try to understand what
is going on? Why don't I see any change on the profiled prints?

Listed below are all my settings, measurements and results.

Measurement device: SPyder3Print. Direct export in QTR ICC profiling
format.

Epson 3800, ABW mode, Canson Baryta 310g paper
Original 21 step target bundled with QTR
Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/rHd7Yvue
<http://pastebin.com/rHd7Yvue>
After profile http://pastebin.com/hSpZaF5m
<http://pastebin.com/hSpZaF5m>
Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
http://i.imgur.com/FC2Ar.png <http://i.imgur.com/FC2Ar.png>

Epson 3800, ABW mode, Canson Baryta 310g paper
Paul Roark Gray gamma 2.2 target
Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/cj6dcDdg
<http://pastebin.com/cj6dcDdg>
After profile http://pastebin.com/UrEL5qV9
<http://pastebin.com/UrEL5qV9>
Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
http://i.imgur.com/NBVPk.png <http://i.imgur.com/NBVPk.png>

Epson 3800, black only mode, lesser grade photo paper
Paul Roark Gray gamma 2.2 target
Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/Z4ZTkgr3
<http://pastebin.com/Z4ZTkgr3>
After profile http://pastebin.com/4iqzpENB
<http://pastebin.com/4iqzpENB>
Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
http://i.imgur.com/UfaWv.png <http://i.imgur.com/UfaWv.png>

Hp 2025dn, grayscale mode, plain paper
Paul Roark Gray gamma 2.2 target
Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/XfwmaVJy
<http://pastebin.com/XfwmaVJy>
After profile http://pastebin.com/1y5HgrBu
<http://pastebin.com/1y5HgrBu>
Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
http://i.imgur.com/zJUSc.png <http://i.imgur.com/zJUSc.png>

Thank you for your help,

Fabio Pili




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Fabio,

What platform are you on (PC or Mac) and which application including version
number are you printing from?

Txs,

Mike

On 21 July 2011 19:39, HalfCameraGeek <fabio@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been evaluating he ICC profile creation tools of QuadToneRIP and
> trying to understand my results with it. My interested is specifically
> in the profiling tools, so I wanted to try it before buying.
>
> I was able to successfully profile my Epson 3800 using ABW mode and
> Canson Infinity Baryta 310g/m2 paper, but the resulting profile seems to
> be almost neutral. Soft proofing with it gives me no tonal changes, only
> paper / ink color simulation, and prints of the 21 step target show
> roughly the same values as before profiling.
>
> I've done a fair bit of homework before coming here and the only
> explanation I've come with is that my printer was pretty linear by
> default. I've used the Gray gamma 2.2 target provided by Paul Roark,
> since most of my images are in AdobeRGB colorspace and I print a lot
> from Lightroom. Using the original untagged target from the Eye-One
> folder gives me the same results (almost no change by applying profile),
> but a totally different gamma curve, as expected.
>
> In an attempt to troubleshoot it, I've profiled a HP black and white
> laser printer. This device was highly unlinear to begin with and, this
> time, I was able to see a big change on the curves after outputting with
> the ICC profile.
>
> Could anyone help me to assess these results and try to understand what
> is going on? Why don't I see any change on the profiled prints?
>
> Listed below are all my settings, measurements and results.
>
> Measurement device: SPyder3Print. Direct export in QTR ICC profiling
> format.
>
> Epson 3800, ABW mode, Canson Baryta 310g paper
> Original 21 step target bundled with QTR
> Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/rHd7Yvue
> <http://pastebin.com/rHd7Yvue>
> After profile http://pastebin.com/hSpZaF5m
> <http://pastebin.com/hSpZaF5m>
> Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
> http://i.imgur.com/FC2Ar.png <http://i.imgur.com/FC2Ar.png>
>
> Epson 3800, ABW mode, Canson Baryta 310g paper
> Paul Roark Gray gamma 2.2 target
> Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/cj6dcDdg
> <http://pastebin.com/cj6dcDdg>
> After profile http://pastebin.com/UrEL5qV9
> <http://pastebin.com/UrEL5qV9>
> Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
> http://i.imgur.com/NBVPk.png <http://i.imgur.com/NBVPk.png>
>
> Epson 3800, black only mode, lesser grade photo paper
> Paul Roark Gray gamma 2.2 target
> Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/Z4ZTkgr3
> <http://pastebin.com/Z4ZTkgr3>
> After profile http://pastebin.com/4iqzpENB
> <http://pastebin.com/4iqzpENB>
> Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
> http://i.imgur.com/UfaWv.png <http://i.imgur.com/UfaWv.png>
>
> Hp 2025dn, grayscale mode, plain paper
> Paul Roark Gray gamma 2.2 target
> Measurements used to profile http://pastebin.com/XfwmaVJy
> <http://pastebin.com/XfwmaVJy>
> After profile http://pastebin.com/1y5HgrBu
> <http://pastebin.com/1y5HgrBu>
> Visual comparison of the two tonal responses
> http://i.imgur.com/zJUSc.png <http://i.imgur.com/zJUSc.png>
>
> Thank you for your help,
>
> Fabio Pili
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Mike.

I'm printing from a Mac running 10.6.8 and printing from Photoshop CS5 12.0.4. Since the Adobe utility for printing targets does not support monochrome files, I'm using that trick of creating a null profile conversion during output to ensure no color transformation is affecting the target.

Those are my settings during printing:

Target
File in Gray gamma 2.2 colorspace
Photoshop manages colors
Printer profile: Gray gamma 2.2
Rendering intent: Relative colorimetric
Black point compensation off


Test print
File in Gray gamma 2.2 colorspace
Photoshop manages colors
Printer profile: My ICC profile generated with QTR
Rendering intent: Perceptual
Black point compensation on

Thank you,

Fabio Pili

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Fabio,
> 
> What platform are you on (PC or Mac) and which application including version
> number are you printing from?
> 
> Txs,
> 
> Mike
>

Fabio,

I am using a PC so not that familiar with Mac printing issues - but to
simplify the problem why not keep the images and targets in RGB since it
looks like your images are in RGB to start with, that way you could use the
Adobe Utility to double check your target printing. ABW driver works fine
with RGB files. Personally I never bother with grayscale images and always
leave my B&W images in RGB mode.

Hopefully someone else can help you with the Mac printing.

Mike


On 21 July 2011 21:57, HalfCameraGeek <fabio@pili.com.br> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi, Mike.
>
> I'm printing from a Mac running 10.6.8 and printing from Photoshop CS5
> 12.0.4. Since the Adobe utility for printing targets does not support
> monochrome files, I'm using that trick of creating a null profile conversion
> during output to ensure no color transformation is affecting the target.
>
> Those are my settings during printing:
>
> Target
> File in Gray gamma 2.2 colorspace
> Photoshop manages colors
> Printer profile: Gray gamma 2.2
> Rendering intent: Relative colorimetric
> Black point compensation off
>
> Test print
> File in Gray gamma 2.2 colorspace
> Photoshop manages colors
> Printer profile: My ICC profile generated with QTR
> Rendering intent: Perceptual
> Black point compensation on
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fabio Pili
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Fabio,
> >
> > What platform are you on (PC or Mac) and which application including
> version
> > number are you printing from?
> >
> > Txs,
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for your reply, Mike. 

I think the targets are not being altered during printing, because of the lab values I'm getting when I measure them. But I'll try printing from the Adobe Color Utility tomorrow, to check if the results are different.

Regarding the resulting curves, is that behavior normal? I'd like to have input from you and the others if those measurement values and resulting curves I posted are normal. I'm puzzled that the resulting profile doesn't seem to alter output in any way.

Thank you,

Fabio Pili


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> Fabio,
> 
> I am using a PC so not that familiar with Mac printing issues - but to
> simplify the problem why not keep the images and targets in RGB since it
> looks like your images are in RGB to start with, that way you could use the
> Adobe Utility to double check your target printing. ABW driver works fine
> with RGB files. Personally I never bother with grayscale images and always
> leave my B&W images in RGB mode.
> 
> Hopefully someone else can help you with the Mac printing.
> 
> Mike
>

Fabio,

The one from the laser printer is more what I would expect, where it takes a
curve and linearizes it.

Note that everything I read about this profile issue, says that "null
profile" only works reliably when using AdobeRGB profile.

Mike



On 21 July 2011 23:07, pili <fabio@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thank you for your reply, Mike.
>
> I think the targets are not being altered during printing, because of the
> lab values I'm getting when I measure them. But I'll try printing from the
> Adobe Color Utility tomorrow, to check if the results are different.
>
> Regarding the resulting curves, is that behavior normal? I'd like to have
> input from you and the others if those measurement values and resulting
> curves I posted are normal. I'm puzzled that the resulting profile doesn't
> seem to alter output in any way.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fabio Pili
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > Fabio,
> >
> > I am using a PC so not that familiar with Mac printing issues - but to
> > simplify the problem why not keep the images and targets in RGB since it
> > looks like your images are in RGB to start with, that way you could use
> the
> > Adobe Utility to double check your target printing. ABW driver works fine
> > with RGB files. Personally I never bother with grayscale images and
> always
> > leave my B&W images in RGB mode.
> >
> > Hopefully someone else can help you with the Mac printing.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Fabio.

I suggest you read through a great article that Keith Cooper wrote called
"Better black and white with the ColorMunki". Don't let the title fool you.
The article is all about using the QTR icc profile tool to linearize your
ABW black & white prints. Simply adjust the process as appropriate for
Spider3Print.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/bw_print_colorm
unki.html

While I normally do my b/w printing using QTR itself and dedicated
monochrome inks, I have used this approach to successfully linearize Epson
ABW output as well as Canon's equivalent on the 8300.

BTW, if you have a spreadsheet you can use it to check your final output and
make sure it's linear. Make a step-wedge print using a profile you created
and then read the values. Graph these values in your spreadsheet, taking
care to set Dmax and Dmin as "0" and "100". You should get a straight line
with no bumps or curves.

I'm not sure I fully understand your comment about seeing "no color
changes". If you mean in your output, all that Create-ICC will do is to make
your print linear. It will not change the tone. You will have to use ABW to
do that. If you're talking about soft-proofing, drop your profile text file
onto "QTR-Create-ICC-RGB". This version of Create-ICC will use all three Lab
values and it will create a profile you can use to soft-proof the "tone" or
"color" of your b/w print. QTR-Create-ICC will create a profile that will
only show you luminosity values (i.e. no representation of paper or ink
color).

Best,

Terry.

On 11-07-21 12:39 PM, "HalfCameraGeek" <fabio@...> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I've been evaluating he ICC profile creation tools of QuadToneRIP and
> trying to understand my results with it. My interested is specifically
> in the profiling tools, so I wanted to try it before buying.
> 
> I was able to successfully profile my Epson 3800 using ABW mode and
> Canson Infinity Baryta 310g/m2 paper, but the resulting profile seems to
> be almost neutral. Soft proofing with it gives me no tonal changes, only
> paper / ink color simulation, and prints of the 21 step target show
> roughly the same values as before profiling.
> 
> I've done a fair bit of homework before coming here and the only
> explanation I've come with is that my printer was pretty linear by
> default. I've used the Gray gamma 2.2 target provided by Paul Roark,
> since most of my images are in AdobeRGB colorspace and I print a lot
> from Lightroom. Using the original untagged target from the Eye-One
> folder gives me the same results (almost no change by applying profile),
> but a totally different gamma curve, as expected.

Hello, Terry. Thank you for you reply.

I've read that article and also checked other sources, including the
list archive, before posting here.

When I said "no color changes", I should have said "no shade changes". I
mean, my 50% gray is the same when I apply the profile during output or
when I print with no color management.

This is what is puzzling me. The HP laser printer profile works and
shows a distinct change, but all the profiles I've tried for the Epson
3800 make absolutely no changes no the printed image. The before and
after curves, generated with a spreadsheet, like you suggested, overlap.
For example: http://i.imgur.com/NBVPk.png <http://i.imgur.com/NBVPk.png>

The only reason I can think of is that this printer was already pretty
much linear before profiling. Does that make any sense? Am I overlooking
anything obvious?

Best,

Fabio Pili

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Fabio.
>
> I suggest you read through a great article that Keith Cooper wrote
called
> "Better black and white with the ColorMunki". Don't let the title fool
you.
> The article is all about using the QTR icc profile tool to linearize
your
> ABW black & white prints. Simply adjust the process as appropriate for
> Spider3Print.
>
>
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/bw_print_co\
lorm
> unki.html
>
> While I normally do my b/w printing using QTR itself and dedicated
> monochrome inks, I have used this approach to successfully linearize
Epson
> ABW output as well as Canon's equivalent on the 8300.
>
> BTW, if you have a spreadsheet you can use it to check your final
output and
> make sure it's linear. Make a step-wedge print using a profile you
created
> and then read the values. Graph these values in your spreadsheet,
taking
> care to set Dmax and Dmin as "0" and "100". You should get a straight
line
> with no bumps or curves.
>
> I'm not sure I fully understand your comment about seeing "no color
> changes". If you mean in your output, all that Create-ICC will do is
to make
> your print linear. It will not change the tone. You will have to use
ABW to
> do that. If you're talking about soft-proofing, drop your profile text
file
> onto "QTR-Create-ICC-RGB". This version of Create-ICC will use all
three Lab
> values and it will create a profile you can use to soft-proof the
"tone" or
> "color" of your b/w print. QTR-Create-ICC will create a profile that
will
> only show you luminosity values (i.e. no representation of paper or
ink
> color).
>
> Best,
>
> Terry.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've done a few further tests and, so far, I could not measure any change on my prints when applying the QTR generated profile during output. This should be some kind of bug. I have generated and used my own color ICC profiles for years and never had any problem like this.

Target output is not the culprit. I was able to compare my original procedure with the Adobe Print Utility and also to the output from Photoshop in RGB format, and the results are identical.

I've tested in the Light mode of the Epson ABW driver, which produces the least linear output of all modes. At this time, the resulting curve was very unlinear. After generating a profile with QTR-Create-ICC-RGB and printing with it, the results are indistinguishable from the original chart. The profile is doing nothing and I also can't see any changes when soft proofing with it.

You can see my results here: http://imgur.com/crgqS Those are the L values comparing output with and without the ICC profile.
Any ideas?

Thank you,

Fabio Pili

I have tracked down the problem to some incompatibility during printing. For same reason, either in Photoshop CS5 or in Lightroom, the ICC profile generated by QTR-Create-ICC-RGB doesn't do any color transformation if applied during printing.

I was able to circumvent this issue by doing a profile transformation in Photoshop: Open image, convert to QTR ICC profile, assign working space profile (gray gamma 2.2) and print without color management.

To print without color management from Photoshop CS5, do a null transformation. On the print window, select Photoshop manages color, same profile of the file (gray gamma 2.2), relative colorimetric, black point compensation off.

Here is my before and after calibration comparison: http://i.imgur.com/SJobQ.png

Hope this information is useful for someone that stumbles on this same situation.

Fabio Pili

Hi Fabio,

Sorry to deliver the bad news but that still doesn't look like the right
result. QTR should linearize to a straight line. There should not be that
curve at the bottom once you apply the profile.

Can you share the xxxxxx-out.txt file that QTR generates when you produce a
Create ICC profile. That file shows a rough visualization of L* which should
be a straight line.

This profile printing complexity that was introduced with CS4/5 is a real
pain in the ass for getting profiling right.

Cheers,

Mike



On 22 July 2011 18:41, pili <fabio@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I have tracked down the problem to some incompatibility during printing.
> For same reason, either in Photoshop CS5 or in Lightroom, the ICC profile
> generated by QTR-Create-ICC-RGB doesn't do any color transformation if
> applied during printing.
>
> I was able to circumvent this issue by doing a profile transformation in
> Photoshop: Open image, convert to QTR ICC profile, assign working space
> profile (gray gamma 2.2) and print without color management.
>
> To print without color management from Photoshop CS5, do a null
> transformation. On the print window, select Photoshop manages color, same
> profile of the file (gray gamma 2.2), relative colorimetric, black point
> compensation off.
>
> Here is my before and after calibration comparison:
> http://i.imgur.com/SJobQ.png
>
> Hope this information is useful for someone that stumbles on this same
> situation.
>
> Fabio Pili
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike,

This (http://pastebin.com/xj2TzYDj) is the output file and this (http://pastebin.com/3Nqzj7sS) is the data that originated it. Here (http://pastebin.com/m79ZxEqU) are my measurements after applying the profile.

I'm using the Epson ABW driver for all this.

There's a dent near the 95% tones, indeed. 

Thank you,

Fabio Pili

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Fabio,
> 
> Sorry to deliver the bad news but that still doesn't look like the right
> result. QTR should linearize to a straight line. There should not be that
> curve at the bottom once you apply the profile.
> 
> Can you share the xxxxxx-out.txt file that QTR generates when you produce a
> Create ICC profile. That file shows a rough visualization of L* which should
> be a straight line.
> 
> This profile printing complexity that was introduced with CS4/5 is a real
> pain in the ass for getting profiling right.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike
>

Fabio, what paper are you using?
L=  93,29 is very low for paper white. Mike

On 22 July 2011 19:47, pili <fabio@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Mike,
>
> This (http://pastebin.com/xj2TzYDj) is the output file and this (
> http://pastebin.com/3Nqzj7sS) is the data that originated it. Here (
> http://pastebin.com/m79ZxEqU) are my measurements after applying the
> profile.
>
> I'm using the Epson ABW driver for all this.
>
> There's a dent near the 95% tones, indeed.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fabio Pili
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Fabio,
> >
> > Sorry to deliver the bad news but that still doesn't look like the right
> > result. QTR should linearize to a straight line. There should not be that
> > curve at the bottom once you apply the profile.
> >
> > Can you share the xxxxxx-out.txt file that QTR generates when you produce
> a
> > Create ICC profile. That file shows a rough visualization of L* which
> should
> > be a straight line.
> >
> > This profile printing complexity that was introduced with CS4/5 is a real
> > pain in the ass for getting profiling right.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

These run was done on a cheap photo paper. Canson Infinity Baryta 310g was giving me better L values, around 97.5. I'm using a Datacolor Spyder3Print device to measure.

Thank you for your help,

Fabio Pili

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> Fabio, what paper are you using?
> L=  93,29 is very low for paper white. Mike
>

Mike,

That cheap photo paper might be the cause of the flat curve near 95% tones. Look at this (http://imgur.com/vF1l5) comparison between it and Canson Baryta Photographique 310g, both uncalibrated. Darker tones are better preserved on the Canson paper.

Fabio Pili

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> Fabio, what paper are you using?
> L=  93,29 is very low for paper white. Mike
>

And here (http://i.imgur.com/fOhV0.png) is a comparison for the Canson Baryta Photographique 310g, before and after profiling. The 95% tones could be a little lighter, but the shadows are considerably better than on the cheaper paper.

Fabio Pili

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "pili" <fabio@...> wrote:

>
> Mike,
> 
> That cheap photo paper might be the cause of the flat curve near 95% tones. Look at this (http://imgur.com/vF1l5) comparison between it and Canson Baryta Photographique 310g, both uncalibrated. Darker tones are better preserved on the Canson paper.
> 
> Fabio Pili
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@> wrote:
> >
> > Fabio, what paper are you using?
> > L=  93,29 is very low for paper white. Mike
> >
>

Hi Fabio, I am just repeating here what we discussed off-line - for the
benefit of those following this thread (If any :)

Ok I realised what the issue is. Of course you are printing a gamma 2.2
target for the final print. So when you have linearized your printer - and
you print a target in gamma 2.2 of course you get a gamma 2.2 curve !!.  not
a linear one.

I work with L* which is a linear profile space. Because as you can see from
your curve with gamma 2.2 the shadows are very closed - I hate that.

I repeated what you had done with ABW on my 7900. When I print using QTR ICC
with gamma 2.2 target I get same result as you.
When I print with LStar  target I get a straight line - as you would expect.

LStar info is here if you want to try it out
http://homepage.mac.com/hanspeterharpf/LStar-RGB/FileSharing36.html
Google will translate the German docs :)

QTR also has an icc folder that has profiles that does the same thing for
grayscale only, but I prefer working in RGB for my b&w.

IMHO gamma 2.2 sucks.... because of the closed shadow problems. Here is a
chart of gamma 2.2 vs LStar
http://homepage.mac.com/hanspeterharpf/LStar-RGB/LStar_against_RGB.jpg

Happy printing.

Mike


On 22 July 2011 20:49, pili <fabio@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> And here (http://i.imgur.com/fOhV0.png) is a comparison for the Canson
> Baryta Photographique 310g, before and after profiling. The 95% tones could
> be a little lighter, but the shadows are considerably better than on the
> cheaper paper.
>
> Fabio Pili
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "pili" <fabio@...> wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > That cheap photo paper might be the cause of the flat curve near 95%
> tones. Look at this (http://imgur.com/vF1l5) comparison between it and
> Canson Baryta Photographique 310g, both uncalibrated. Darker tones are
> better preserved on the Canson paper.
> >
> > Fabio Pili
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Fabio, what paper are you using?
> > > L= 93,29 is very low for paper white. Mike
> > >
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm a little (maybe a lot) late to this discussion.  You can see the L* curves for the 3800 here:  http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070123 but you need to scroll down to about the middle of the page.  I'm on a Win7 machine and just went through making profiles using ArgyllCMS to generate and read the patches (i1 Pro to read them).  It all worked fine and I could see the difference in the patch set by reading the unprofiled patch set and the profiled patch set.  You can see the shift in Excel quite easily.  I found the shift to be in the middle of the contrast range and that shadow values were relatively unaffected.

X-Rite ColorPort can also be used to create and read test targets. 

Philippe



Le 23 juil. 2011 � 17:20, agoldhammer a �crit :

I'm a little (maybe a lot) late to this discussion. You can see the L* curves for the 3800 here: http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070123 but you need to scroll down to about the middle of the page. I'm on a Win7 machine and just went through making profiles using ArgyllCMS to generate and read the patches (i1 Pro to read them). It all worked fine and I could see the difference in the patch set by reading the unprofiled patch set and the profiled patch set. You can see the shift in Excel quite easily. I found the shift to be in the middle of the contrast range and that shadow values were relatively unaffected.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is there a source file for the 21 and 51 step wedges?  The ColorPort download only has color targets available.  I did a Google search and cannot find any B/W patch data sets that are compatible with ColorPort; there was an old link posted by Ernst Dinkla from several years ago that is no longer active.  Are you aware of the two data sets?  I don't see any in the QTR download.  Before I start to create one, I thought I would ask.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Bachelier <philippe.bachelier@...> wrote:

>
> X-Rite ColorPort can also be used to create and read test targets. 
> 
> Philippe
> 
> 
> 
> Le 23 juil. 2011 à 17:20, agoldhammer a écrit :
> 
> I'm a little (maybe a lot) late to this discussion. You can see the L* curves for the 3800 here: http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070123 but you need to scroll down to about the middle of the page. I'm on a Win7 machine and just went through making profiles using ArgyllCMS to generate and read the patches (i1 Pro to read them). It all worked fine and I could see the difference in the patch set by reading the unprofiled patch set and the profiled patch set. You can see the shift in Excel quite easily. I found the shift to be in the middle of the contrast range and that shadow values were relatively unaffected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

QTR eye-one folder....

On 24 July 2011 18:27, agoldhammer <agoldhammer@verizon.net> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Is there a source file for the 21 and 51 step wedges? The ColorPort
> download only has color targets available. I did a Google search and cannot
> find any B/W patch data sets that are compatible with ColorPort; there was
> an old link posted by Ernst Dinkla from several years ago that is no longer
> active. Are you aware of the two data sets? I don't see any in the QTR
> download. Before I start to create one, I thought I would ask.
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Bachelier
> <philippe.bachelier@...> wrote:
> >
> > X-Rite ColorPort can also be used to create and read test targets.
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 23 juil. 2011 � 17:20, agoldhammer a �crit :
> >
> > I'm a little (maybe a lot) late to this discussion. You can see the L*
> curves for the 3800 here:
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070123 but
> you need to scroll down to about the middle of the page. I'm on a Win7
> machine and just went through making profiles using ArgyllCMS to generate
> and read the patches (i1 Pro to read them). It all worked fine and I could
> see the difference in the patch set by reading the unprofiled patch set and
> the profiled patch set. You can see the shift in Excel quite easily. I found
> the shift to be in the middle of the contrast range and that shadow values
> were relatively unaffected.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I saw those files but they don't import into ColorPort.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> QTR eye-one folder....
> 
> On 24 July 2011 18:27, agoldhammer <agoldhammer@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > Is there a source file for the 21 and 51 step wedges? The ColorPort
> > download only has color targets available. I did a Google search and cannot
> > find any B/W patch data sets that are compatible with ColorPort; there was
> > an old link posted by Ernst Dinkla from several years ago that is no longer
> > active. Are you aware of the two data sets? I don't see any in the QTR
> > download. Before I start to create one, I thought I would ask.
> >
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Bachelier
> > <philippe.bachelier@> wrote:
> > >
> > > X-Rite ColorPort can also be used to create and read test targets.
> > >
> > > Philippe
> > >
> > >

Create your own .txt file with the same values for RGB, like this 21 steps :

0,0,0
13,13,13
26,26,26
38,38,38
51,51,51
64,64,64
77,77,77
89,89,89
102,102,102
115,115,115
128,128,128
140,140,140
153,153,153
166,166,166
179,179,179
191,191,191
204,204,204
217,217,217
230,230,230
242,242,242
255,255,255

Read your target starting from the darkest patch. Save the file with CGATS format. Then open the file with ICC-CREATE-RGB.

Philippe



Le 24 juil. 2011 � 19:27, agoldhammer a �crit :

Is there a source file for the 21 and 51 step wedges? The ColorPort download only has color targets available. I did a Google search and cannot find any B/W patch data sets that are compatible with ColorPort; there was an old link posted by Ernst Dinkla from several years ago that is no longer active. Are you aware of the two data sets? I don't see any in the QTR download. Before I start to create one, I thought I would ask.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Bachelier <philippe.bachelier@...> wrote:
>
> X-Rite ColorPort can also be used to create and read test targets. 
> 
> Philippe
> 
> 
> 
> Le 23 juil. 2011 � 17:20, agoldhammer a �crit :
> 
> I'm a little (maybe a lot) late to this discussion. You can see the L* curves for the 3800 here: http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070123 but you need to scroll down to about the middle of the page. I'm on a Win7 machine and just went through making profiles using ArgyllCMS to generate and read the patches (i1 Pro to read them). It all worked fine and I could see the difference in the patch set by reading the unprofiled patch set and the profiled patch set. You can see the shift in Excel quite easily. I found the shift to be in the middle of the contrast range and that shadow values were relatively unaffected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for confirming what I thought about doing!

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Bachelier <philippe.bachelier@...> wrote:

>
> Create your own .txt file with the same values for RGB, like this 21 steps :
> 
> 0,0,0
> 13,13,13
> 26,26,26
> 38,38,38
> 51,51,51
> 64,64,64
> 77,77,77
> 89,89,89
> 102,102,102
> 115,115,115
> 128,128,128
> 140,140,140
> 153,153,153
> 166,166,166
> 179,179,179
> 191,191,191
> 204,204,204
> 217,217,217
> 230,230,230
> 242,242,242
> 255,255,255
> 
> Read your target starting from the darkest patch. Save the file with CGATS format. Then open the file with ICC-CREATE-RGB.
> 
> Philippe
> 
>

Hello to all,

I'd like to thank Mike for his suggestions. It was spot on. I've just finished testing a new set of profiles with a L* gamma target. The results are much more linear. The darkest tones around 95% density are now better and less blocked. Screen matching is also much improved.

Here's a before and after comparison: http://i.imgur.com/JY4E3.png

It was also interesting to see that the Epson ABW is very linear using the Dark tone setting (default is Darker).

Thank you all for your help,

Fabio Pili

Hi Fabio,

Glad it all worked out in the end.

> I'd like to thank Mike for his suggestions. It was spot on. I've just
> finished testing a new set of profiles with a L* gamma target. The results
> are much more linear. The darkest tones around 95% density are now better
> and less blocked. Screen matching is also much improved
>
Welcome to the world of L* profiling. Much better than Gamma 2.2 which sucks
big time for b&w.

> Here's a before and after comparison: http://i.imgur.com/JY4E3.png
>
> It was also interesting to see that the Epson ABW is very linear using the
> Dark tone setting (default is Darker).
>
Yes normal or Dark is the best choice for L* while darker is closer to Gamma
2.2 and hence is Epson's recommendation.

Its so sad but not unexpected that Epson recommend what easiest rather than
what's best.

Mike



> Thank you all for your help,
>
> Fabio Pili
>
>  
>


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