QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hello,

Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 

Thanks,

-Ted

Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 

Hope this helps

Alan


On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is possible to produce a QTR curve that lays down ink in a linear fashion, then you can use pdn or something similar to produce a grey curve to apply in QTR. I use 50% photo black, 26% Yellow and 25% Cyan for a total ink limit of 101%. The step wedge may print with pizza wheel marks or banding because printers dont like to lay ink down that way, but once you have applied a grey curve the ugliness goes away. You apply the same curve to all the colours used to maintain the 50,26,25 ink ratio. If you want less density you can cut the PK % down and increase the others, say 33% each, if you need less again cut the total ink limit and proportional limits. Vivid magenta prints with less grain than cyan, in the above recipe but produces less density. Do a manual head align before you start.

David



________________________________

 From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 27 December 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
 
Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 

Hope this helps

Alan


On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Making negatives is like making a custom coating for your platinum palladium
mix; it's yours. It is really quite easy. I use a "pyro' look to my negs.
The negs work great for graded paper too as well as MG papers if you want to
use them to make SG prints.  It's not rocket science but it help to know
what your doing. It makes your guesses have some value. ; )   
 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  

From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of 228044881 228044881
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 6:16 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
 
  
It is possible to produce a QTR curve that lays down ink in a linear
fashion, then you can use pdn or something similar to produce a grey curve
to apply in QTR. I use 50% photo black, 26% Yellow and 25% Cyan for a total
ink limit of 101%. The step wedge may print with pizza wheel marks or
banding because printers dont like to lay ink down that way, but once you
have applied a grey curve the ugliness goes away. You apply the same curve
to all the colours used to maintain the 50,26,25 ink ratio. If you want less
density you can cut the PK % down and increase the others, say 33% each, if
you need less again cut the total ink limit and proportional limits. Vivid
magenta prints with less grain than cyan, in the above recipe but produces
less density. Do a manual head align before you start.

David

________________________________
From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@... <mailto:alanvlach%40gmail.com> >
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com>  
Sent: Tuesday, 27 December 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR

Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with
QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the
steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and
no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have
used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is
patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to
university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) ,
and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using
QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I
feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very
stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is
a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when
mixing all the inks. 

Hope this helps

Alan

On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative
system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks a lot Alan, et al.
So can you use Curve Calculator without using the PDN or the PDN manual? 

I see he's selling CC2 separately for slightly cheaper, might be nice to save a little cash. 


I've been working on developing curves with the Reeder composite method, but i'm having a heck of time getting smooth curves, and having nagging issues with the highlights blowing out in my prints.

-Ted



________________________________

 From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
 
Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 

Hope this helps

Alan


On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes you can use CCII without PDN although it helps to know the PDN process. The nice thing about using CCII is that you can create a family of curves with varying contrasts as well as hybrid curves.

It's just a guess, but if you are having trouble separating the highlights your ink mix might be too dense. You might also experiment with the shadow value and the gamma value to provide some separation.

Alan

On Dec 27, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Ted wrote:

> Thanks a lot Alan, et al.
> So can you use Curve Calculator without using the PDN or the PDN manual? 
> 
> I see he's selling CC2 separately for slightly cheaper, might be nice to save a little cash. 
> 
> I've been working on developing curves with the Reeder composite method, but i'm having a heck of time getting smooth curves, and having nagging issues with the highlights blowing out in my prints.
> 
> -Ted
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> 
> Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > -Ted
> > 
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, i'm using the method in which C, Y, and M curves are ganged to the gray curve. I'm working now with an overall ink limit of 13 and a gamma of 1.2, which all seems a little extreme to me. 

Even so, i'm having a hard time getting good tonal separation through the highlights and lighter midtones. I'm getting ok negatives, but still not satisfied with it.

-Ted



________________________________

 From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
 
Yes you can use CCII without PDN although it helps to know the PDN process. The nice thing about using CCII is that you can create a family of curves with varying contrasts as well as hybrid curves.

It's just a guess, but if you are having trouble separating the highlights your ink mix might be too dense. You might also experiment with the shadow value and the gamma value to provide some separation.

Alan

On Dec 27, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Ted wrote:

> Thanks a lot Alan, et al.
> So can you use Curve Calculator without using the PDN or the PDN manual? 
> 
> I see he's selling CC2 separately for slightly cheaper, might be nice to save a little cash. 
> 
> I've been working on developing curves with the Reeder composite method, but i'm having a heck of time getting smooth curves, and having nagging issues with the highlights blowing out in my prints.
> 
> -Ted
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> 
> Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > -Ted
> > 
> > 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As mentioned earlier, make sure you have just enough ink to get a paper white on your print, and then use black boost to tweak your highlight contrast. Also, you are probably going the wrong way on your gamma. Lower your gamma to the 0.5 range and that will pour more ink into the lower and mid tones and require less of a curve correction. Ron Reeder and I have communicated about this for some time, and it is possible to get a profile that requires very little in the way of curve correction by lowering the gamma and increasing the black boost. The gamma thing seems counterintuitive at first, until you realize that when you lower the gamma on an image in photoshop, it goes very 'gray' and dark in the mid and lower tones. This is exactly what you want on a negative, since it lays down more ink and makes your shadows print lighter. 

I have a ~20 page pdf of my QTR negative workflow here if you want to look through it:

http://www.clayharmon.com/download/downloads/QTR.pdf

Hope this helps.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ted <mysteriousmirage@...> wrote:

>
> Yeah, i'm using the method in which C, Y, and M curves are ganged to the gray curve. I'm working now with an overall ink limit of 13 and a gamma of 1.2, which all seems a little extreme to me. 
> 
> Even so, i'm having a hard time getting good tonal separation through the highlights and lighter midtones. I'm getting ok negatives, but still not satisfied with it.
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
>  
> Yes you can use CCII without PDN although it helps to know the PDN process. The nice thing about using CCII is that you can create a family of curves with varying contrasts as well as hybrid curves.
> 
> It's just a guess, but if you are having trouble separating the highlights your ink mix might be too dense. You might also experiment with the shadow value and the gamma value to provide some separation.
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Dec 27, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Ted wrote:
> 
> > Thanks a lot Alan, et al.
> > So can you use Curve Calculator without using the PDN or the PDN manual? 
> > 
> > I see he's selling CC2 separately for slightly cheaper, might be nice to save a little cash. 
> > 
> > I've been working on developing curves with the Reeder composite method, but i'm having a heck of time getting smooth curves, and having nagging issues with the highlights blowing out in my prints.
> > 
> > -Ted
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 4:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> > 
> > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > 
> > Hope this helps
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > -Ted
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks Clay, this is a really useful document! 


Wow, a gamma of 0.5? I'll have try that.


Unfortunately i can't use PS curve script because i'm using PS2, which is one reason i'd consider using the Curve Calculator program from PDN. I've been using the good old pad-of-paper method, and having a hard time visualizing what it is i'm actually doing with the curve data. 

I noticed at the end of your guide you mention you might do a guide for the 1400, do you have this? As it happens i'm using a 1400. I've never had any problems with density in my negatives though, if anything i've had the opposite problem.

-Ted



________________________________

 From: clayharmon47 <clay@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:50 AM
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: PDN system and QTR
 

  
As mentioned earlier, make sure you have just enough ink to get a paper white on your print, and then use black boost to tweak your highlight contrast. Also, you are probably going the wrong way on your gamma. Lower your gamma to the 0.5 range and that will pour more ink into the lower and mid tones and require less of a curve correction. Ron Reeder and I have communicated about this for some time, and it is possible to get a profile that requires very little in the way of curve correction by lowering the gamma and increasing the black boost. The gamma thing seems counterintuitive at first, until you realize that when you lower the gamma on an image in photoshop, it goes very 'gray' and dark in the mid and lower tones. This is exactly what you want on a negative, since it lays down more ink and makes your shadows print lighter. 

I have a ~20 page pdf of my QTR negative workflow here if you want to look through it:

http://www.clayharmon.com/download/downloads/QTR.pdf

Hope this helps.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ted <mysteriousmirage@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, i'm using the method in which C, Y, and M curves are ganged to the gray curve. I'm working now with an overall ink limit of 13 and a gamma of 1.2, which all seems a little extreme to me. 
> 
> Even so, i'm having a hard time getting good tonal separation through the highlights and lighter midtones. I'm getting ok negatives, but still not satisfied with it.
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
> To: QuadtoneRIP@...m 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> 
> Yes you can use CCII without PDN although it helps to know the PDN process. The nice thing about using CCII is that you can create a family of curves with varying contrasts as well as hybrid curves.
> 
> It's just a guess, but if you are having trouble separating the highlights your ink mix might be too dense. You might also experiment with the shadow value and the gamma value to provide some separation.
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Dec 27, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Ted wrote:
> 
> > Thanks a lot Alan, et al.
> > So can you use Curve Calculator without using the PDN or the PDN manual? 
> > 
> > I see he's selling CC2 separately for slightly cheaper, might be nice to save a little cash. 
> > 
> > I've been working on developing curves with the Reeder composite method, but i'm having a heck of time getting smooth curves, and having nagging issues with the highlights blowing out in my prints.
> > 
> > -Ted
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 4:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> > 
> > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > 
> > Hope this helps
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > -Ted
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll post my ink profiles for the 1400 for pt/pd and KM73 polymer gravure positives. Please note that the pt/pd profiles work for my fluorescent light box and my Amergraph unit, but may require tweaking the gray curve if you use a different light source.

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ted <mysteriousmirage@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Clay, this is a really useful document! 
> 
> 
> Wow, a gamma of 0.5? I'll have try that.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately i can't use PS curve script because i'm using PS2, which is one reason i'd consider using the Curve Calculator program from PDN. I've been using the good old pad-of-paper method, and having a hard time visualizing what it is i'm actually doing with the curve data. 
> 
> I noticed at the end of your guide you mention you might do a guide for the 1400, do you have this? As it happens i'm using a 1400. I've never had any problems with density in my negatives though, if anything i've had the opposite problem.
> 
> -Ted
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: clayharmon47 <clay@...>
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:50 AM
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: PDN system and QTR
>  
> 
> Â  
> As mentioned earlier, make sure you have just enough ink to get a paper white on your print, and then use black boost to tweak your highlight contrast. Also, you are probably going the wrong way on your gamma. Lower your gamma to the 0.5 range and that will pour more ink into the lower and mid tones and require less of a curve correction. Ron Reeder and I have communicated about this for some time, and it is possible to get a profile that requires very little in the way of curve correction by lowering the gamma and increasing the black boost. The gamma thing seems counterintuitive at first, until you realize that when you lower the gamma on an image in photoshop, it goes very 'gray' and dark in the mid and lower tones. This is exactly what you want on a negative, since it lays down more ink and makes your shadows print lighter. 
> 
> I have a ~20 page pdf of my QTR negative workflow here if you want to look through it:
> 
> http://www.clayharmon.com/download/downloads/QTR.pdf
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Ted <mysteriousmirage@> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, i'm using the method in which C, Y, and M curves are ganged to the gray curve. I'm working now with an overall ink limit of 13 and a gamma of 1.2, which all seems a little extreme to me. 
> > 
> > Even so, i'm having a hard time getting good tonal separation through the highlights and lighter midtones. I'm getting ok negatives, but still not satisfied with it.
> > 
> > -Ted
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@>
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> > 
> > Yes you can use CCII without PDN although it helps to know the PDN process. The nice thing about using CCII is that you can create a family of curves with varying contrasts as well as hybrid curves.
> > 
> > It's just a guess, but if you are having trouble separating the highlights your ink mix might be too dense. You might also experiment with the shadow value and the gamma value to provide some separation.
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > On Dec 27, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Ted wrote:
> > 
> > > Thanks a lot Alan, et al.
> > > So can you use Curve Calculator without using the PDN or the PDN manual? 
> > > 
> > > I see he's selling CC2 separately for slightly cheaper, might be nice to save a little cash. 
> > > 
> > > I've been working on developing curves with the Reeder composite method, but i'm having a heck of time getting smooth curves, and having nagging issues with the highlights blowing out in my prints.
> > > 
> > > -Ted
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@>
> > > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 4:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] PDN system and QTR
> > > 
> > > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps
> > > 
> > > Alan
> > > 
> > > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hello,
> > > > 
> > > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > -Ted
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > 
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
>  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Alan,

Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.

I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!

While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:

>
> Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > -Ted
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I want to be clear that I like and respect Mark Nelson. He put a lot of work into developing his system (more than two years) and feels he should be compensated for that. It is unique in concept and works like a charm. It was absolutely the best system when printers only had one black ink in the inkset.

Ron Reeder is extremely approachable and helpful. I think his method is as good as PDN given where printer technology is today. But it is much more trial and error during calibration. It takes me about twice as long to do a calibration using his QTR method versus PDN.

You should also check out Jon Cone's blog. He has done a lot of work with Piezography and digital negatives. Problem is there is a large initial investment in his inks and delivery system as well as a dedicated printer for negs as he used different inks for negs than for b&w printing on digital papers. 

Alan


On Jan 17, 2012, at 1:46 AM, stormbytes wrote:

> Alan,
> 
> Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!
> 
> While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:
> >
> > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > 
> > Hope this helps
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > 
> > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > -Ted
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All-


I don't often post, and much appreciate the community on this list, but must take issue with any notion that Mark Nelson's reasonable licensing plan for PDN is greedy. It is not.



We spend tens of thousands of dollars purchasing and licensing software for our university digital labs every year. It is not only a legal requirement, but the right thing to do. We teach our undergraduates this schema and actively discourage unlicensed "sharing" or pirated software. How can photographers expect their copyright to respected if we do not, in turn, respect the copyright of others?



I also own K2 Press, Inc., in Austin, Tx. (www.k2press.com); and we gladly pay a licensing fee to use PDN to produce digital negatives for our clients. In turn, we have received remarkable customer support from Mark Nelson.



PDN is a brilliant solution for digital negatives and worth every penny. The individual licensing fee should be higher, in my opinion, but I appreciate Mark's generosity. FYI, Jon Cone's adaptation of PDN for his system is excellent and very well thought out. If you have the inks, or purchase them, I strongly recommend checking it out.


Bill Kennedy
Professor of Photocommunications
Area Coordinator
St. Edward's University
Austin, Texas USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jan 17, 2012 2:47 am
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: PDN system and QTR


I want to be clear that I like and respect Mark Nelson. He put a lot of work 
into developing his system (more than two years) and feels he should be 
compensated for that. It is unique in concept and works like a charm. It was 
absolutely the best system when printers only had one black ink in the inkset.

Ron Reeder is extremely approachable and helpful. I think his method is as good 
as PDN given where printer technology is today. But it is much more trial and 
error during calibration. It takes me about twice as long to do a calibration 
using his QTR method versus PDN.

You should also check out Jon Cone's blog. He has done a lot of work with 
Piezography and digital negatives. Problem is there is a large initial 
investment in his inks and delivery system as well as a dedicated printer for 
negs as he used different inks for negs than for b&w printing on digital papers. 


Alan


On Jan 17, 2012, at 1:46 AM, stormbytes wrote:

> Alan,
> 
> Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with 
Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick 
your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital 
negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for 
silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. 
He's a great guy!
> 
> While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come 
across enough material to be optimistic. 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:
> >
> > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with 
QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps 
and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black 
inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it 
extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( 
you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university 
professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I 
teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's 
method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as 
good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward 
during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork 
to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > 
> > Hope this helps
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > 
> > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative 
system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > -Ted
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark's PDN system is perhaps the only comprehensive 'turnkey' solution to making digital negatives. All the others have some DIY aspects to them. 

I've been doing digital negatives since 2001. I first started out with Dan Burkholder's approach using imagesetter negatives and later used his colorized inkjet negatives. I even created my own colorized negative approach that you can find on www.alternativephotography.com ( although I now think QTR is a vastly superior approach).

When Mark first came out with PDN around 2006, I bit the bullet and paid for a license, even with the restrictions involved, thinking I could at least use it for my own work. I had just purchased a new 7800 printer and thought it would be straightforward to create a digital negative workflow. It was straightforward, but I ran headlong into a few problems that I think are under-appreciated. 

First and foremost, the approach depends on using the out-of-the-box printer drivers for printing. The thing is, Epson (and others) write driver software to create their smooth tonal transitions based on visual density from reflective substrates. Digital negatives depend on transmission densities through transmissive substrates, and UV light sensitive printing processes can 'see' transitions and discontinuities that may be invisible to the naked eye. 

I ran into this problem immediately with PDN. I was trying to create a palladium printing profile using the PDN approach, and the by-the-book PDN workflow determined a green color to be the best UV blocking color for this printing process. However, when I moved onto the next step,  I found that the Epson driver had discontinuities when I printed a density step wedge. The 80% color blocked more UV light than the 100% color! And neither allowed me to print in palladium without the use of restrainers, which has a deleterious effect on print quality.

Plus the green color gave me grainy highlights, since it dithered with a mix of a high UV blocking ink (yellow) and a low UV blocking ink (cyan).

That is when I ran across Ron Reeder's book and bit the bullet and started creating negatives with QTR. The learning curve is certainly steeper, and this is primarily because there is no 'one right way'. It is entirely possible for two people using the same printers to come up with entirely different ink profiles that both work fine. 

But this flexibility is QTR's key advantage. It allows you to do silly things like create profiles with 130% ink loads to get maximum UV light blockage for high DR processes like salt or albumen. It allows you to look at the relative blocking ability of different inks and avoid creating profiles that put dots of low UV blocking inks right next to dots of high UV blocking inks. QTR allows you to pump ink into the highlight areas of photogravure positives so that you get beautifully smooth highlight tones in this printing process (hint: LLK limit 100 at density of 1% gray).

In short, Roy's QTR driver and Ron's adaptation of the driver for digital negatives allows you complete control over the process and the ability to wring every bit of digital negative 'performance' from your Epson printer. But it comes with the cost of having to learn and understand both how QTR works and how it interacts with your printing method.

If you are interested in using QTR for making negatives, send Roy your money and buy Ron's book. Read the tutorial on my website outlining how I use QTR. Scour the web and forums for information. It is truly worth your time.

That said, if you don't want to, or can't invest the time, and are looking for the slickest approach to creating digital negatives with the least amount of hassle and are willing to accept some of the limitations (legal and technical), PDN is certainly a fine approach. Mark has put a great deal of thought and time into creating this system.

Clay

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "stormbytes" <stormbytes@...> wrote:

>
> Alan,
> 
> Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!
> 
> While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@> wrote:
> >
> > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > 
> > Hope this helps
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > 
> > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > -Ted
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Clay,

This is becoming a very interesting and informative discussion. I've used PDN and Ron Reeder's QTR method and am sold on QTR as it as good or better and is not patented. I'm curious about your thoughts via Ron's method. He mixes equal parts black, cyan, magenta and yellow in his profile with a black boost. He does this to smooth out continuous tones. But according to your analysis this would have the opposite effect because it mixes high UV blocking (black and yellow) with low UV blocking (cyan and magenta). I know in a previous post you indicated that you had many conversations with Ron about QTR. I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. 

Thanks

Alan

On Jan 18, 2012, at 9:22 AM, clayharmon47 wrote:

> Mark's PDN system is perhaps the only comprehensive 'turnkey' solution to making digital negatives. All the others have some DIY aspects to them. 
> 
> I've been doing digital negatives since 2001. I first started out with Dan Burkholder's approach using imagesetter negatives and later used his colorized inkjet negatives. I even created my own colorized negative approach that you can find on www.alternativephotography.com ( although I now think QTR is a vastly superior approach).
> 
> When Mark first came out with PDN around 2006, I bit the bullet and paid for a license, even with the restrictions involved, thinking I could at least use it for my own work. I had just purchased a new 7800 printer and thought it would be straightforward to create a digital negative workflow. It was straightforward, but I ran headlong into a few problems that I think are under-appreciated. 
> 
> First and foremost, the approach depends on using the out-of-the-box printer drivers for printing. The thing is, Epson (and others) write driver software to create their smooth tonal transitions based on visual density from reflective substrates. Digital negatives depend on transmission densities through transmissive substrates, and UV light sensitive printing processes can 'see' transitions and discontinuities that may be invisible to the naked eye. 
> 
> I ran into this problem immediately with PDN. I was trying to create a palladium printing profile using the PDN approach, and the by-the-book PDN workflow determined a green color to be the best UV blocking color for this printing process. However, when I moved onto the next step, I found that the Epson driver had discontinuities when I printed a density step wedge. The 80% color blocked more UV light than the 100% color! And neither allowed me to print in palladium without the use of restrainers, which has a deleterious effect on print quality.
> 
> Plus the green color gave me grainy highlights, since it dithered with a mix of a high UV blocking ink (yellow) and a low UV blocking ink (cyan).
> 
> That is when I ran across Ron Reeder's book and bit the bullet and started creating negatives with QTR. The learning curve is certainly steeper, and this is primarily because there is no 'one right way'. It is entirely possible for two people using the same printers to come up with entirely different ink profiles that both work fine. 
> 
> But this flexibility is QTR's key advantage. It allows you to do silly things like create profiles with 130% ink loads to get maximum UV light blockage for high DR processes like salt or albumen. It allows you to look at the relative blocking ability of different inks and avoid creating profiles that put dots of low UV blocking inks right next to dots of high UV blocking inks. QTR allows you to pump ink into the highlight areas of photogravure positives so that you get beautifully smooth highlight tones in this printing process (hint: LLK limit 100 at density of 1% gray).
> 
> In short, Roy's QTR driver and Ron's adaptation of the driver for digital negatives allows you complete control over the process and the ability to wring every bit of digital negative 'performance' from your Epson printer. But it comes with the cost of having to learn and understand both how QTR works and how it interacts with your printing method.
> 
> If you are interested in using QTR for making negatives, send Roy your money and buy Ron's book. Read the tutorial on my website outlining how I use QTR. Scour the web and forums for information. It is truly worth your time.
> 
> That said, if you don't want to, or can't invest the time, and are looking for the slickest approach to creating digital negatives with the least amount of hassle and are willing to accept some of the limitations (legal and technical), PDN is certainly a fine approach. Mark has put a great deal of thought and time into creating this system.
> 
> Clay
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "stormbytes" <stormbytes@...> wrote:
> >
> > Alan,
> > 
> > Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> > 
> > I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!
> > 
> > While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps
> > > 
> > > Alan
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hello,
> > > > 
> > > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > -Ted
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron and I had an email discussion about this issue a while back. The short answer is that neither of us  (at least then) had done enough testing to be sure if there was anything to be gained from only using inks with similar UV blocking characteristics. I think in the small percentages he has in his profiles, the answer is that it probably doesn't matter. Since I was making my own profiles from scratch, I figured it couldn't hurt to assume that there might be something to gain from trying to minimize these differences. 

The reason I was getting grainy highlights in PDN was because there were only two color inks being mixed together, and the percentages were something like 60% Y and 40% C . With only two colors with such radically different UV blocking characteristics being dithered in the same pixel, there was bound to be some graininess. On the contrary, Ron's profiles use primarily K ink and the other inks represent a much smaller proportion of the total ink load. And you can't argue with his results. He gets some very fine prints using his profiles. 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:

>
> Clay,
> 
> This is becoming a very interesting and informative discussion. I've used PDN and Ron Reeder's QTR method and am sold on QTR as it as good or better and is not patented. I'm curious about your thoughts via Ron's method. He mixes equal parts black, cyan, magenta and yellow in his profile with a black boost. He does this to smooth out continuous tones. But according to your analysis this would have the opposite effect because it mixes high UV blocking (black and yellow) with low UV blocking (cyan and magenta). I know in a previous post you indicated that you had many conversations with Ron about QTR. I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Jan 18, 2012, at 9:22 AM, clayharmon47 wrote:
> 
> > Mark's PDN system is perhaps the only comprehensive 'turnkey' solution to making digital negatives. All the others have some DIY aspects to them. 
> > 
> > I've been doing digital negatives since 2001. I first started out with Dan Burkholder's approach using imagesetter negatives and later used his colorized inkjet negatives. I even created my own colorized negative approach that you can find on www.alternativephotography.com ( although I now think QTR is a vastly superior approach).
> > 
> > When Mark first came out with PDN around 2006, I bit the bullet and paid for a license, even with the restrictions involved, thinking I could at least use it for my own work. I had just purchased a new 7800 printer and thought it would be straightforward to create a digital negative workflow. It was straightforward, but I ran headlong into a few problems that I think are under-appreciated. 
> > 
> > First and foremost, the approach depends on using the out-of-the-box printer drivers for printing. The thing is, Epson (and others) write driver software to create their smooth tonal transitions based on visual density from reflective substrates. Digital negatives depend on transmission densities through transmissive substrates, and UV light sensitive printing processes can 'see' transitions and discontinuities that may be invisible to the naked eye. 
> > 
> > I ran into this problem immediately with PDN. I was trying to create a palladium printing profile using the PDN approach, and the by-the-book PDN workflow determined a green color to be the best UV blocking color for this printing process. However, when I moved onto the next step, I found that the Epson driver had discontinuities when I printed a density step wedge. The 80% color blocked more UV light than the 100% color! And neither allowed me to print in palladium without the use of restrainers, which has a deleterious effect on print quality.
> > 
> > Plus the green color gave me grainy highlights, since it dithered with a mix of a high UV blocking ink (yellow) and a low UV blocking ink (cyan).
> > 
> > That is when I ran across Ron Reeder's book and bit the bullet and started creating negatives with QTR. The learning curve is certainly steeper, and this is primarily because there is no 'one right way'. It is entirely possible for two people using the same printers to come up with entirely different ink profiles that both work fine. 
> > 
> > But this flexibility is QTR's key advantage. It allows you to do silly things like create profiles with 130% ink loads to get maximum UV light blockage for high DR processes like salt or albumen. It allows you to look at the relative blocking ability of different inks and avoid creating profiles that put dots of low UV blocking inks right next to dots of high UV blocking inks. QTR allows you to pump ink into the highlight areas of photogravure positives so that you get beautifully smooth highlight tones in this printing process (hint: LLK limit 100 at density of 1% gray).
> > 
> > In short, Roy's QTR driver and Ron's adaptation of the driver for digital negatives allows you complete control over the process and the ability to wring every bit of digital negative 'performance' from your Epson printer. But it comes with the cost of having to learn and understand both how QTR works and how it interacts with your printing method.
> > 
> > If you are interested in using QTR for making negatives, send Roy your money and buy Ron's book. Read the tutorial on my website outlining how I use QTR. Scour the web and forums for information. It is truly worth your time.
> > 
> > That said, if you don't want to, or can't invest the time, and are looking for the slickest approach to creating digital negatives with the least amount of hassle and are willing to accept some of the limitations (legal and technical), PDN is certainly a fine approach. Mark has put a great deal of thought and time into creating this system.
> > 
> > Clay
> > 
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "stormbytes" <stormbytes@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Alan,
> > > 
> > > Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> > > 
> > > I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!
> > > 
> > > While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps
> > > > 
> > > > Alan
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > 
> > > > > -Ted
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks Clay,

But Ron's profiles actually use equal amounts of black, yellow, cyan and magenta with a black boost of about 50% of the K value. For example, his palladium profile uses 18% for each of those inks for the highlights and about 35% each light black, light cyan and light light black for the shadows. 

The profile is attached.



Alan

On Jan 18, 2012, at 11:11 AM, clayharmon47 wrote:

> Ron and I had an email discussion about this issue a while back. The short answer is that neither of us (at least then) had done enough testing to be sure if there was anything to be gained from only using inks with similar UV blocking characteristics. I think in the small percentages he has in his profiles, the answer is that it probably doesn't matter. Since I was making my own profiles from scratch, I figured it couldn't hurt to assume that there might be something to gain from trying to minimize these differences. 
> 
> The reason I was getting grainy highlights in PDN was because there were only two color inks being mixed together, and the percentages were something like 60% Y and 40% C . With only two colors with such radically different UV blocking characteristics being dithered in the same pixel, there was bound to be some graininess. On the contrary, Ron's profiles use primarily K ink and the other inks represent a much smaller proportion of the total ink load. And you can't argue with his results. He gets some very fine prints using his profiles. 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:
> >
> > Clay,
> > 
> > This is becoming a very interesting and informative discussion. I've used PDN and Ron Reeder's QTR method and am sold on QTR as it as good or better and is not patented. I'm curious about your thoughts via Ron's method. He mixes equal parts black, cyan, magenta and yellow in his profile with a black boost. He does this to smooth out continuous tones. But according to your analysis this would have the opposite effect because it mixes high UV blocking (black and yellow) with low UV blocking (cyan and magenta). I know in a previous post you indicated that you had many conversations with Ron about QTR. I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > On Jan 18, 2012, at 9:22 AM, clayharmon47 wrote:
> > 
> > > Mark's PDN system is perhaps the only comprehensive 'turnkey' solution to making digital negatives. All the others have some DIY aspects to them. 
> > > 
> > > I've been doing digital negatives since 2001. I first started out with Dan Burkholder's approach using imagesetter negatives and later used his colorized inkjet negatives. I even created my own colorized negative approach that you can find on www.alternativephotography.com ( although I now think QTR is a vastly superior approach).
> > > 
> > > When Mark first came out with PDN around 2006, I bit the bullet and paid for a license, even with the restrictions involved, thinking I could at least use it for my own work. I had just purchased a new 7800 printer and thought it would be straightforward to create a digital negative workflow. It was straightforward, but I ran headlong into a few problems that I think are under-appreciated. 
> > > 
> > > First and foremost, the approach depends on using the out-of-the-box printer drivers for printing. The thing is, Epson (and others) write driver software to create their smooth tonal transitions based on visual density from reflective substrates. Digital negatives depend on transmission densities through transmissive substrates, and UV light sensitive printing processes can 'see' transitions and discontinuities that may be invisible to the naked eye. 
> > > 
> > > I ran into this problem immediately with PDN. I was trying to create a palladium printing profile using the PDN approach, and the by-the-book PDN workflow determined a green color to be the best UV blocking color for this printing process. However, when I moved onto the next step, I found that the Epson driver had discontinuities when I printed a density step wedge. The 80% color blocked more UV light than the 100% color! And neither allowed me to print in palladium without the use of restrainers, which has a deleterious effect on print quality.
> > > 
> > > Plus the green color gave me grainy highlights, since it dithered with a mix of a high UV blocking ink (yellow) and a low UV blocking ink (cyan).
> > > 
> > > That is when I ran across Ron Reeder's book and bit the bullet and started creating negatives with QTR. The learning curve is certainly steeper, and this is primarily because there is no 'one right way'. It is entirely possible for two people using the same printers to come up with entirely different ink profiles that both work fine. 
> > > 
> > > But this flexibility is QTR's key advantage. It allows you to do silly things like create profiles with 130% ink loads to get maximum UV light blockage for high DR processes like salt or albumen. It allows you to look at the relative blocking ability of different inks and avoid creating profiles that put dots of low UV blocking inks right next to dots of high UV blocking inks. QTR allows you to pump ink into the highlight areas of photogravure positives so that you get beautifully smooth highlight tones in this printing process (hint: LLK limit 100 at density of 1% gray).
> > > 
> > > In short, Roy's QTR driver and Ron's adaptation of the driver for digital negatives allows you complete control over the process and the ability to wring every bit of digital negative 'performance' from your Epson printer. But it comes with the cost of having to learn and understand both how QTR works and how it interacts with your printing method.
> > > 
> > > If you are interested in using QTR for making negatives, send Roy your money and buy Ron's book. Read the tutorial on my website outlining how I use QTR. Scour the web and forums for information. It is truly worth your time.
> > > 
> > > That said, if you don't want to, or can't invest the time, and are looking for the slickest approach to creating digital negatives with the least amount of hassle and are willing to accept some of the limitations (legal and technical), PDN is certainly a fine approach. Mark has put a great deal of thought and time into creating this system.
> > > 
> > > Clay
> > > 
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "stormbytes" <stormbytes@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Alan,
> > > > 
> > > > Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!
> > > > 
> > > > While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hope this helps
> > > > > 
> > > > > Alan
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -Ted
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Also, 

Where can I get a copy of the torture test?

Thanks

Alan

On Jan 18, 2012, at 11:11 AM, clayharmon47 wrote:

> Ron and I had an email discussion about this issue a while back. The short answer is that neither of us (at least then) had done enough testing to be sure if there was anything to be gained from only using inks with similar UV blocking characteristics. I think in the small percentages he has in his profiles, the answer is that it probably doesn't matter. Since I was making my own profiles from scratch, I figured it couldn't hurt to assume that there might be something to gain from trying to minimize these differences. 
> 
> The reason I was getting grainy highlights in PDN was because there were only two color inks being mixed together, and the percentages were something like 60% Y and 40% C . With only two colors with such radically different UV blocking characteristics being dithered in the same pixel, there was bound to be some graininess. On the contrary, Ron's profiles use primarily K ink and the other inks represent a much smaller proportion of the total ink load. And you can't argue with his results. He gets some very fine prints using his profiles. 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:
> >
> > Clay,
> > 
> > This is becoming a very interesting and informative discussion. I've used PDN and Ron Reeder's QTR method and am sold on QTR as it as good or better and is not patented. I'm curious about your thoughts via Ron's method. He mixes equal parts black, cyan, magenta and yellow in his profile with a black boost. He does this to smooth out continuous tones. But according to your analysis this would have the opposite effect because it mixes high UV blocking (black and yellow) with low UV blocking (cyan and magenta). I know in a previous post you indicated that you had many conversations with Ron about QTR. I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > On Jan 18, 2012, at 9:22 AM, clayharmon47 wrote:
> > 
> > > Mark's PDN system is perhaps the only comprehensive 'turnkey' solution to making digital negatives. All the others have some DIY aspects to them. 
> > > 
> > > I've been doing digital negatives since 2001. I first started out with Dan Burkholder's approach using imagesetter negatives and later used his colorized inkjet negatives. I even created my own colorized negative approach that you can find on www.alternativephotography.com ( although I now think QTR is a vastly superior approach).
> > > 
> > > When Mark first came out with PDN around 2006, I bit the bullet and paid for a license, even with the restrictions involved, thinking I could at least use it for my own work. I had just purchased a new 7800 printer and thought it would be straightforward to create a digital negative workflow. It was straightforward, but I ran headlong into a few problems that I think are under-appreciated. 
> > > 
> > > First and foremost, the approach depends on using the out-of-the-box printer drivers for printing. The thing is, Epson (and others) write driver software to create their smooth tonal transitions based on visual density from reflective substrates. Digital negatives depend on transmission densities through transmissive substrates, and UV light sensitive printing processes can 'see' transitions and discontinuities that may be invisible to the naked eye. 
> > > 
> > > I ran into this problem immediately with PDN. I was trying to create a palladium printing profile using the PDN approach, and the by-the-book PDN workflow determined a green color to be the best UV blocking color for this printing process. However, when I moved onto the next step, I found that the Epson driver had discontinuities when I printed a density step wedge. The 80% color blocked more UV light than the 100% color! And neither allowed me to print in palladium without the use of restrainers, which has a deleterious effect on print quality.
> > > 
> > > Plus the green color gave me grainy highlights, since it dithered with a mix of a high UV blocking ink (yellow) and a low UV blocking ink (cyan).
> > > 
> > > That is when I ran across Ron Reeder's book and bit the bullet and started creating negatives with QTR. The learning curve is certainly steeper, and this is primarily because there is no 'one right way'. It is entirely possible for two people using the same printers to come up with entirely different ink profiles that both work fine. 
> > > 
> > > But this flexibility is QTR's key advantage. It allows you to do silly things like create profiles with 130% ink loads to get maximum UV light blockage for high DR processes like salt or albumen. It allows you to look at the relative blocking ability of different inks and avoid creating profiles that put dots of low UV blocking inks right next to dots of high UV blocking inks. QTR allows you to pump ink into the highlight areas of photogravure positives so that you get beautifully smooth highlight tones in this printing process (hint: LLK limit 100 at density of 1% gray).
> > > 
> > > In short, Roy's QTR driver and Ron's adaptation of the driver for digital negatives allows you complete control over the process and the ability to wring every bit of digital negative 'performance' from your Epson printer. But it comes with the cost of having to learn and understand both how QTR works and how it interacts with your printing method.
> > > 
> > > If you are interested in using QTR for making negatives, send Roy your money and buy Ron's book. Read the tutorial on my website outlining how I use QTR. Scour the web and forums for information. It is truly worth your time.
> > > 
> > > That said, if you don't want to, or can't invest the time, and are looking for the slickest approach to creating digital negatives with the least amount of hassle and are willing to accept some of the limitations (legal and technical), PDN is certainly a fine approach. Mark has put a great deal of thought and time into creating this system.
> > > 
> > > Clay
> > > 
> > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "stormbytes" <stormbytes@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Alan,
> > > > 
> > > > Interesting that you point it out. I guess I'm not the only one annoyed with Mark Nelson's extensive (and fairly greedy) patent scheme. No one else (pick your author) seems to place such hurdles in the way of teaching creativity.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm a big fan of Ron Reeder. I've purchased his recent book on making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing (which he noted would work well for silver gelatin too!) and emailed him with questions on a number of occasions. He's a great guy!
> > > > 
> > > > While I'm just starting out experimenting with QTR and Ron's method, I've come across enough material to be optimistic. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Check out Ron Reeder's site. He has a procedure for making negatives with QTR. I use QTR and Mark Nelson's Curve Calculator software to execute the steps and calculate the curves. PDN itself is based on the use of color (and no black inks) to create smooth tonalities in the digital negative. I have used it extensively and it is an excellent method to make negatives, but is patented ( you can't teach it without permission which he only gives to university professors or use it for profit without paying a commission) , and, since I teach workshops in making negatives I have switched to using QTR. Ron Reeder's method mixes all the inks when making a negative and I feel the results are as good as PDN. The only downside is that PDN is very stepwise and straightforward during the calibration process whereas there is a lot of testing and guesswork to determine the right ink mix using QTR when mixing all the inks. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hope this helps
> > > > > 
> > > > > Alan
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:22 PM, mysteriousmirage wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Has anyone had expereince using the Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negative system with QTR? If so, what has been your expereince? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -Ted
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have used both PDN and QTR to calibrate digital negative. I prefer the work flow of QTR and if I have a lot of time to work on my profile it is what I would use. On the other hand, if I find myself in a situation where I need to make some good prints quickly, say with a new printer, process or workshop, I use PDN.

In my own experience in calibrating digital negatives with QTR and the Epson pigment ink sets printers (2200, 3800, 7600)I have gotten smoother results when equalizing UV blocking density of the K, C and Y inks. For example, if the QTR calibration print shows UV blocking density of log 1.2 at K = 15%, C = 15% and Y = 20% I adjust the profile with that proportion of both dark and light inks. The actual value may need to increase but smoothness seems best if the ration is kept the same. So in practice the inks might be K=9, C=9 and Y=12, so other value of equal proportion as required to produce the desired blocking density.

QTR is a powerful method of making digital negatives, but if you use it be prepared to spend a lot of time experimenting in order to get the best results. 

Sandy King

Sandy,

Thank you for this follow up. I've used PDN extensively and have started using QTR in the last year. I have found that there is a lot more experimentation with QTR. Do you use a single grey ink profile?

Thanks

Alan

On Jan 20, 2012, at 3:37 PM, SandyK wrote:

> I have used both PDN and QTR to calibrate digital negative. I prefer the work flow of QTR and if I have a lot of time to work on my profile it is what I would use. On the other hand, if I find myself in a situation where I need to make some good prints quickly, say with a new printer, process or workshop, I use PDN.
> 
> In my own experience in calibrating digital negatives with QTR and the Epson pigment ink sets printers (2200, 3800, 7600)I have gotten smoother results when equalizing UV blocking density of the K, C and Y inks. For example, if the QTR calibration print shows UV blocking density of log 1.2 at K = 15%, C = 15% and Y = 20% I adjust the profile with that proportion of both dark and light inks. The actual value may need to increase but smoothness seems best if the ration is kept the same. So in practice the inks might be K=9, C=9 and Y=12, so other value of equal proportion as required to produce the desired blocking density.
> 
> QTR is a powerful method of making digital negatives, but if you use it be prepared to spend a lot of time experimenting in order to get the best results. 
> 
> Sandy King 
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have experimented with an all grey ink set with an Epson printer but in practice was not able to make better digital negatives with the all grey set than with the Epson color ink sets. As good, but not better.

Sandy


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:

>
> Sandy,
> 
> Thank you for this follow up. I've used PDN extensively and have started using QTR in the last year. I have found that there is a lot more experimentation with QTR. Do you use a single grey ink profile?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Jan 20, 2012, at 3:37 PM, SandyK wrote:
> 
> > I have used both PDN and QTR to calibrate digital negative. I prefer the work flow of QTR and if I have a lot of time to work on my profile it is what I would use. On the other hand, if I find myself in a situation where I need to make some good prints quickly, say with a new printer, process or workshop, I use PDN.
> > 
> > In my own experience in calibrating digital negatives with QTR and the Epson pigment ink sets printers (2200, 3800, 7600)I have gotten smoother results when equalizing UV blocking density of the K, C and Y inks. For example, if the QTR calibration print shows UV blocking density of log 1.2 at K = 15%, C = 15% and Y = 20% I adjust the profile with that proportion of both dark and light inks. The actual value may need to increase but smoothness seems best if the ration is kept the same. So in practice the inks might be K=9, C=9 and Y=12, so other value of equal proportion as required to produce the desired blocking density.
> > 
> > QTR is a powerful method of making digital negatives, but if you use it be prepared to spend a lot of time experimenting in order to get the best results. 
> > 
> > Sandy King 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>