Analogue-sequencer

well i've got it built and it doesn't even look to f*cked up..i'll 
take some pictures 'n post em tomorrow.
but i think i did something wrong; i turn the thing on and i get 
the "firmware check/P3 sequencer v3.7/hard&software (C) C.Fraser 2003"
screens no problem, but then i get some kinda weird stuff and the 
machine doesn't respond to anything. the screen keeps showing 
"??/8 ?? iuéiPlay" or a variation on that on the first line and "bank 
FTS tune" on the second line, and the 16 'step' LEDs are 
G,A,G,A,G,A,A,A,G,A,G,A,G,A,A,A (G=green A=amber). i then found out 
that in my enthusiasm to try it i'd forgotten to place the backup 
battery, so i put that in and tried again; same thing. next i tried 
the F1+7 reset thing, to no effect. 
i then thought it might be a firmware problem so i DL'ed the .syx 
(not the beta) file and uploaded that to the machine, which it 
accepted no problem, no problems with the func+page button 
combination thing to get into firmware mode either, but then after 
the file has been uploaded to the P3 it's the same thing with the 
weird lEDs and freaky txt in the display...
any ideas what the problem could be?

o and Colin, i just want to say thank you (again), firstly for 
developing this machine of course (must be at least 3 years since i 
first saw the initial design online..) and secondly for taking the 
trouble to put together a 'full kit' for me. i only realised the 
scale of the time&trouble you must have had to spend to get 
everything organised & packed when i opened the package. so from a 
well-pleased and at the moment only slightly frustrated chiel:
thanks a LOT Colin. :)

Hi Chiel,

> the screen keeps showing 
> "??/8 ?? iuéiPlay" or a variation on that on the first line and "bank 
> FTS tune" on the second line, and the 16 'step' LEDs are 
> G,A,G,A,G,A,A,A,G,A,G,A,G,A,A,A (G=green A=amber). i then found out 
> that in my enthusiasm to try it i'd forgotten to place the backup 
> battery, so i put that in and tried again; same thing. next i tried 
> the F1+7 reset thing, to no effect. 
> i then thought it might be a firmware problem so i DL'ed the .syx 
> (not the beta) file and uploaded that to the machine, which it 
> accepted no problem, no problems with the func+page button 
> combination thing to get into firmware mode either, but then after 
> the file has been uploaded to the P3 it's the same thing with the 
> weird lEDs and freaky txt in the display...
> any ideas what the problem could be?

Sounds to me like it could be a RAM problem.
The CPU in the P3 has 1k of built-in SRAM, and the mainboard has 64k.
The firmware check and upload code starts in internal RAM mode so that
the sequence data in external RAM is not over-written during firmware
update.
Since your firmware check is OK, and the update worked, but it is
showing garbage in the main program, the likely cause is that it has
switched to external RAM that doesn't work.
Since the LCD and LEDs are working, this suggests the CPU and the
interface circuitry are OK - the LCD will not work without 2 way
communication with the CPU, and it is showing the right things where
they are being read from code memory.

Did you get the memory organisation menu appearing - the one that says
"3x16  6x8  12x4" ?
Your LCD is showing "??/8 ?? iuéiPlay".
The first part "??/8" shows the current bank number, and the total
number of banks.
?? indicates an out of range value, and "8" is not a valid number of
banks - it must be 3, 6 or 12.
These values would be forced to sensible values at boot, so the fact
that they are wrong suggests an external RAM failure.
The second ?? shows an FTS root note that is out of range, and the
'iuéi' bit should be the short FTS name - the corruption here shows that
the pointer to the string (which is held in code memory) is not pointing
to the right place.
Again, these values are validated at boot, so this also suggests bad
RAM.

Can you check the 62256 RAMs are oriented the right way, and that they
are being supplied with power from the BBRAM controller chip.
Also check the 74HC138 decoder, and 74HC573 latch in the address
de-multiplexer.

Let me know how you get on.
I've got my fingers crossed for you !

Cheers,
Colin f

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> Try swapping RAM U2 and U3 - the behaviour will be different 
depending
> on which socket a dud RAM is in.

i'll give this a try and see if it makes any difference. i think 
you're right about it being a RAM problem, as the behaviour doesn't 
change if i start the machine with both U2 & U3 removed. i've checked 
the power/signal flow from the battery through the RAM to the CPU 
with a multimeter and this all appears to be working fine..checked 
the orientation of all ic's..
the 3.72 version of the firmware does give different behaviour 
though; when i boot the p3 after uploading by pressing F1 i get the 
LED-cycle and firmware&copyright bit, after which the first line of 
the display reads " tempo=80", 2nd line is the same as before. after 
a minute or so it jumps to the same kind of gibberish as before. 
also, i've yet to see the memory layout screen, in either firmware 
version. i think i saw a part of it during the boot sequence after 
uploading the firmware again, (it read something 
like "memLhard&soft") but never complete.

> 
> I'm uploading a new firmware version shortly that includes a RAM 
test at
> boot that will tell you if either RAM is not working.

cool. i'll be waiting..
o and thanks for the quick replies!
in the meantime i've made & uploaded some pictures of my p3:

http://www.oozi.demon.nl/P3index.html

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> Try swapping RAM U2 and U3 - the behaviour will be different 
depending


tried it; no difference in LED behaviour, although it does display  
different tempo values when i switch U2 & U3.
also i have a quick question about the F1+7 command; should this be 
done during the boot, should i hold the buttons during power-up or 
can it just be done at random when the p3 is turned on?

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> 3.73 is there now if you haven't already seen it.

great! i'll give it a try and report back..

> Wow, that looks familiar ;-)

yeah doesn't it? :)

> Did you make the case yourself, or is it off the shelf ?

the case is a Hammond case that i could buy locally, a bit wider (17" 
i think) than Paul's so i can easily add some rack-ears if i want, 
and it's got a 15 degree slope instead of a 10 degree slope. the 
frontpanel i drilled myself; i printed out a modified-to-fit version 
of your FPD file and taped it to the front of the panel, after which 
i very carefully drilled all the holes, starting with a 1mm drill and 
working up in steps to 15mm in the case of the i/o ports. the 
rectangular holes were a bit more difficult and off course i 
discovered the best way to cut them when i was almost done; cutting 
and a massive amount of filing, mainly..in total i think it took me 
about 4 hours to complete it. i'm pretty pleased. still needs the 
printed covering with the text though. but i'll get to that when i've 
got i working..

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> 3.73 is there now if you haven't already seen it.
> It writes a couple of different bytes to both RAMs and reads them 
back.
> It will report if either RAM fails, then carry on booting after a 
delay.


well that clears things up; 'RAM TEST FAIL!'/'check RAM U3'/'check 
RAM U2'

so i guess this means both RAM ic's are fried?
because i could run out and quickly get some new ones for 3 euro's 
each..
are these the right type? "Ram 32Kx8 Static HM62256-100nS DIL-28"

or have i wired something incorrectly? i've doublechecked every 
connection & solderpoint on the mainboard...

Hi again Chiel,

> the 16 'step' LEDs are 
> G,A,G,A,G,A,A,A,G,A,G,A,G,A,A,A (G=green A=amber)

I just checked on my own P3 what happens with each of the RAM ICs
removed in turn.
When I took out U3 (the left hand RAM), I get the same pattern of
colours as you have.
Try swapping RAM U2 and U3 - the behaviour will be different depending
on which socket a dud RAM is in.

I'm uploading a new firmware version shortly that includes a RAM test at
boot that will tell you if either RAM is not working.

Cheers,
Colin f

> > I'm uploading a new firmware version shortly that includes a RAM 
> test at
> > boot that will tell you if either RAM is not working.
> 
> cool. i'll be waiting..

3.73 is there now if you haven't already seen it.
It writes a couple of different bytes to both RAMs and reads them back.
It will report if either RAM fails, then carry on booting after a delay.

> in the meantime i've made & uploaded some pictures of my p3:
> http://www.oozi.demon.nl/P3index.html

Wow, that looks familiar ;-)
Did you make the case yourself, or is it off the shelf ?

Colin f

> tried it; no difference in LED behaviour, although it does display  
> different tempo values when i switch U2 & U3.
> also i have a quick question about the F1+7 command; should this be 
> done during the boot, should i hold the buttons during power-up or 
> can it just be done at random when the p3 is turned on?

It tests for F1+7 just after the first LED colour cycle finishes
(between P3, v3... and Hard&Software).
Of course if your LEDs are not displaying the correct colours, just make
sure you press it as the 'P3' message is showing.
In fact you can hold it from power-on and the firmware check code will
just ignore it.
Remember you need to then press both F1 and F2 to confirm memory wipe.

Cheers,
Colin f

> well that clears things up; 'RAM TEST FAIL!'/'check RAM U3'/'check 
> RAM U2'
> 
> so i guess this means both RAM ic's are fried?
> because i could run out and quickly get some new ones for 3 euro's 
> each..
> are these the right type? "Ram 32Kx8 Static HM62256-100nS DIL-28"

That sounds like the right sort - nearly any CMOS 62256 type should do.

> or have i wired something incorrectly? i've doublechecked every 
> connection & solderpoint on the mainboard... 

Hmm. It does seem unlikely that both RAMs would be fried, but not
impossible.
Have you checked the orientation of the 74HC573 address latch ?
And you haven't got it mixed up with one of the 74HC574 ? (not implying
you're daft - I've made that mistake before myself !)

If you have a scope, you could check the activity on the address bus
lines to confirm the address latch is operating, and check the CS, OE
and WR lines on the RAMs.

Colin f

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> That sounds like the right sort - nearly any CMOS 62256 type should 
do.

ran out to get them but so did the only shop that has them around 
here. run out that is. got them on order; should be in on saturday.

> Have you checked the orientation of the 74HC573 address latch ?

yup. it won't power up if it's the wrong way round so that's pretty 
obvious.

> And you haven't got it mixed up with one of the 74HC574 ?

no..

> (not implying
> you're daft - I've made that mistake before myself !)

what? the mistake of implying i'm daft? don't worry, i've been 
implied to be much worse things than daft ;)
 
> If you have a scope, you could check the activity 

erm.. well i have a scope but it's a 40 year old huge not quite 
working thing which does its best to be very ornamental so i don't 
think that would be much use. i've rechecked all the solder points 
and lines and all components and can't find anything i could have mis-
soldered or otherwise have screwed up, so i'm think i'm going to have 
to wait for the new RAMs..

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, <Paul.Maddox@s...> wrote:
> failing that, try replaceing the 74hc138 and the 573, if you have 
spares
> it won't hurt to do so, and could save you the wait for the SRAM 
chips.
> 
> Its unusual to have two Chips die at the same time, it points more 
to a
> common element of the two rather than both chips.
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Paul

that's what i was thinking which is why i checked the whole board 
again. it's probably not the 74hc138 as i've already tried switching 
the 2 on the mainboard around and there's no different response. i 
haven't tried the 573 but i don't have any spares around and that one 
shop is closing in 20 minutes.. 1st thing tomorrow. 
i'll just sit here and admire the box until then. ;)

Hi,

> erm.. well i have a scope but it's a 40 year old huge not quite
> working thing which does its best to be very ornamental so i don't
> think that would be much use. i've rechecked all the solder points  and
> lines and all components and can't find anything i could have mis-
> soldered or otherwise have screwed up, so i'm think i'm going to have
> to wait for the new RAMs..

failing that, try replaceing the 74hc138 and the 573, if you have spares
it won't hurt to do so, and could save you the wait for the SRAM chips.

Its unusual to have two Chips die at the same time, it points more to a
common element of the two rather than both chips.

Just my thoughts.

Paul

> I've rechecked all the solder points 
> and lines and all components and can't find anything i could have mis-
> soldered or otherwise have screwed up, so i'm think i'm going to have 
> to wait for the new RAMs..

How frustrating !
I'm trying to think where you might find another 62256 that you could
'borrow'...

Cheers,
Colin f

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> How frustrating !

..just a bit. i can be patiënt and it'll probably do me some good to 
get my head out from between the boards..

> I'm trying to think where you might find another 62256 that you 
could
> 'borrow'...

i've been thinking about what could be wrong and i think paul's 
suggestion about replacing the 74hc573 is probably quite likely the 
winning tip. it's also just about the only IC in the memory part of 
the circuit which hasn't been swapped around with a similar one from 
another place in the board. so tomorrow morning i'm going to buy some 
74hc183's, some 74hc573's and a ds1210 just to be sure, and swap the 
whole bunch and see what happens..

grtz..chiel

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Maddox" 
<Paul.Maddox@s...> wrote:

> you mean 74HC138  :-)

duh..of course.

> let us know what fixes it..


..and again, of course. :)

Hi,

>  so tomorrow morning i'm going to buy some 
> 74hc183's,

you mean 74HC138  :-)

> and swap the whole bunch and see what happens..

let us know what fixes it..

Paul

- swapped the 74hc573; no change, same 'ram test fail' message.
- swapped both the 74hc138's; no change, same 'ram test fail' message.

so now i'm going to wait until the 62256's are in tomorrow.

and..i've noticed what i think is a bug in the 3.73 firmware; when i 
try to get to the boot/flash screen by holding down func+page during 
power-up, it ignores the command and continues booting...

> and..i've noticed what i think is a bug in the 3.73 firmware; when i
> try to get to the boot/flash screen by holding down func+page during
> power-up, it ignores the command and continues booting...

The test for FUNC+PAGE isn't in the main P3 firmware - it's in the
bootloader. The bootloader code sits at the top of flash memory, and is
never changed by a normal firmware update.
On power-up, the bootloader code calculates a checksum for the main
program, and boots it up if it checks OK. If it fails the check, or if
FUNC+PAGE is held, then it presents the menu option to boot anyway, or to
wait for a sysex firmware update.
If it's not responding to FUNC+PAGE, that suggests that the switchboards
are not connected properly, or there's a fault in the interface logic.

Cheers,
Colin f

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> If it's not responding to FUNC+PAGE, that suggests that the 
switchboards
> are not connected properly, 

..guess who feels stupid. forgot to reconnect the keypad. of course 
it works now.

--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
jusat came back from the electronics store and the 62256's weren't in 
yet..now that's frustrating. luckily i have a new sampler to keep me 
occupied 'til monday..