Analogue-sequencer

Hello dear all,

I have just joined the list as I'm intriqued by all the possibilities 
offered by the P3 seq. I'm very interested in getting myself one P3 
for live use. I have been useing a lot of Ableton Live (on a laptop 
that is) as it has some features that are very suitable for live use. 

I would have wanted to ask the mailinglist member how have they found 
the P3 to fuction in live situations. Does the P3 carry the emphasis 
on repetitive or preprogrammed stucture in a song, or is one able to 
change the course of the song even if it would had a prearranged 
structure? (I hope I make some sense in my question ,)

Cheers,
S

are people using the p3 with samplers? Do you suggest using it w/ a 
sampler? How are they being used w/ samplers?

sahkopostiosoite wrote:
 
> I would have wanted to ask the mailinglist member how have they found 
> the P3 to fuction in live situations. Does the P3 carry the emphasis 
> on repetitive or preprogrammed stucture in a song, or is one able to 
> change the course of the song even if it would had a prearranged 
> structure? (I hope I make some sense in my question ,)

P3 is primarily a live performance instrument.
There are intentionally only limited facilities to prearrange a track, with
the emphasis placed instead on creating the parts of a track from groups of
patterns. Then you perform your track by manually selecting these different
parts, muting and un-muting patterns, editing patterns on the fly, or using
the knobs to dynamically modify patterns using effects pre-assigned to the
knobs in each pattern.

If you like, you can arrange the parts of a track in a logical progression,
and use part repeat counts with all parts chained to create a prearranged
track, but that doesn't seem like much fun ;-)

Blixton wrote:

> are people using the p3 with samplers? Do you suggest using it w/ a 
> sampler? How are they being used w/ samplers?

I don't use my sampler much at all, never really got into it, but I don't
treat it any differently from a synth.
Except with loops maybe, but you can set up a pattern with a single tied
note for the length the pattern, that could trigger a loop in time with the
rest of your patterns.

Cheers,
Colin f

This very well might be user error - the last few months I've spent playing
with software mostly, having just discovered the world of Windows vst
synths...

But I booted up the p3 yesterday to start working with it again. Now, I have
probably forgotten some of the workings of the P3 in those few months - but
I couldn't figure out why, after initializing a bank, that occasionally all
of the default patterns would reset themselves. I didn't see a reason for
it - there were no constructed playlists - they just listed pattern 1 - but
after working with the bank for an hour or two, suddenly I could only play
back pattern 3. I hadn't even touched playlist mode, and it had been
defaulting to pattern 1 just fine for that time. A very simple little
sequence here, and pattern 3 was totally blank.

Ok - I figured that either I'm just forgetting some basic stuff here
(possible) or maybe I should reload the p3 software in case something is a
bit scrambled. So, I thought that for the latest version you needed to
install the bootloader. I sent the Bootloader 3.1 - T89 version.

Everything seemed fine at first - I got the
size0680 chk2F31
boot 		flash

display. But when I hit f1, the readout says 'Firmware check...' and just
stays there, and the readout is a bit jittery, like it's trying to process
something. I'm not sure what I should do at this point. This has come after
a weekend of repeated software glitches, so I am royally peeved at the
moment...

Thank you for you r kind reply Colin,

I've been reading thru the manuals of the P3 and one little question 
that pops into my mind: to what extend can you use external 
controller to control the P3? To switch patterns? To Modify 
accumulators and auxes? ...?

Thanks for yor patience ,)
S


--- In analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com, "Colin f" <colin@c...> 
wrote:
> sahkopostiosoite wrote:
>  
> > I would have wanted to ask the mailinglist member how have they 
found 
> > the P3 to fuction in live situations. Does the P3 carry the 
emphasis 
> > on repetitive or preprogrammed stucture in a song, or is one 
able to 
> > change the course of the song even if it would had a prearranged 
> > structure? (I hope I make some sense in my question ,)
> 
> P3 is primarily a live performance instrument.
> There are intentionally only limited facilities to prearrange a 
track, with
> the emphasis placed instead on creating the parts of a track from 
groups of
> patterns. Then you perform your track by manually selecting these 
different
> parts, muting and un-muting patterns, editing patterns on the fly, 
or using
> the knobs to dynamically modify patterns using effects pre-
assigned to the
> knobs in each pattern.
> 
> If you like, you can arrange the parts of a track in a logical 
progression,
> and use part repeat counts with all parts chained to create a 
prearranged
> track, but that doesn't seem like much fun ;-)
> 
> Blixton wrote:
> 
> > are people using the p3 with samplers? Do you suggest using it 
w/ a 
> > sampler? How are they being used w/ samplers?
> 
> I don't use my sampler much at all, never really got into it, but 
I don't
> treat it any differently from a synth.
> Except with loops maybe, but you can set up a pattern with a 
single tied
> note for the length the pattern, that could trigger a loop in time 
with the

> rest of your patterns.
> 
> Cheers,
> Colin f

Hi Gene, 

> I couldn't figure out why, after initializing a bank, that 
> occasionally all
> of the default patterns would reset themselves. I didn't see 
> a reason for
> it - there were no constructed playlists - they just listed 
> pattern 1 - but
> after working with the bank for an hour or two, suddenly I 
> could only play
> back pattern 3. I hadn't even touched playlist mode, and it had been
> defaulting to pattern 1 just fine for that time. A very simple little
> sequence here, and pattern 3 was totally blank.

It's possible that could be a problem with corruption of the main program in
flash.
But it would give you a checksum error on boot if there were something
wrong.
 
> Ok - I figured that either I'm just forgetting some basic stuff here
> (possible) or maybe I should reload the p3 software in case 
> something is a
> bit scrambled. So, I thought that for the latest version you needed to
> install the bootloader. I sent the Bootloader 3.1 - T89 version.
> 
> Everything seemed fine at first - I got the
> size0680 chk2F31
> boot 		flash
> 
> display. But when I hit f1, the readout says 'Firmware 
> check...' and just
> stays there, and the readout is a bit jittery, like it's 
> trying to process
> something. I'm not sure what I should do at this point. This 
> has come after
> a weekend of repeated software glitches, so I am royally peeved at the
> moment...

What happens if you hold FUNC+PAGE when you power on ?
Does it go into the boot/flash screen, or just get stuck at the Firmware
check...
This could indicate either a problem with the CPU, or with something else on
the mainboard.
I can ship you out a replacement CPU to check that. I've had a couple of T89
CPUs do strange things, but a hard re-programming fixes them up.

Cheers,
Colin f

> Ok - I figured that either I'm just forgetting some basic stuff here
> (possible) or maybe I should reload the p3 software in case
> something is a
> bit scrambled. So, I thought that for the latest version you needed to
> install the bootloader. I sent the Bootloader 3.1 - T89 version.
>
> Everything seemed fine at first - I got the
> size0680 chk2F31
> boot 		flash
>
> display. But when I hit f1, the readout says 'Firmware
> check...' and just
> stays there, and the readout is a bit jittery, like it's
> trying to process
> something. I'm not sure what I should do at this point. This
> has come after
> a weekend of repeated software glitches, so I am royally peeved at the
> moment...

"What happens if you hold FUNC+PAGE when you power on ?
Does it go into the boot/flash screen, or just get stuck at the Firmware
check..."

That seems to work properly. It goes into the boot/flash screen, and it
still seems to be able to receive the firmware dumps...

I don't know if this means anything because I haven't used the P3tools
program before (having been on a Mac), but I tried it today. After
encountering the above symptoms sending the bootloader file using midiOX, I
tried uploading the file into the latest p3tools. But I get an error every
time. For instance, when I use the firmware upload it tells me that the
upload failed, and when I simply upload the .syx file it tells me that there
were 14 errors. Could I have sent corrupted data? I downloaded again from
the yahoo site, and still received the same errors. Or does this program not
handle the bootloader files at all, which might be the case.

"This could indicate either a problem with the CPU, or with something else
on
the mainboard.
I can ship you out a replacement CPU to check that. I've had a couple of T89
CPUs do strange things, but a hard re-programming fixes them up."

Cheers,
Colin f






Yahoo! Groups Links

> I've been reading thru the manuals of the P3 and one little question 
> that pops into my mind: to what extend can you use external 
> controller to control the P3? To switch patterns? To Modify 
> accumulators and auxes? ...?

The simple answer to that is none yet, but it's on the 'to be implemented'
list.

Cheers,
Colin f

Hi Gene, 

> > I sent the Bootloader 3.1 - T89 version.
> >
> > Everything seemed fine at first - I got the
> > size0680 chk2F31
> > boot 		flash

OK, this means you have got the latest bootloader installed.

> "What happens if you hold FUNC+PAGE when you power on ?
> Does it go into the boot/flash screen, or just get stuck at 
> the Firmware
> check..."
> 
> That seems to work properly. It goes into the boot/flash 
> screen, and it
> still seems to be able to receive the firmware dumps...

OK so far...

> For instance, when I use the firmware upload it tells 
> me that the
> upload failed, and when I simply upload the .syx file it 
> tells me that there
> were 14 errors. Could I have sent corrupted data?

I'm not sure what you're doing there...
You can only use firmware upload on P3Tools to transmit a firmware image
.syx file.
What did you mean by 'simply upload the .syx file' ?
What exactly does the display say in P3Tools when you do 'firmware upload',
and select the latest image file (p3fw-3.1.004.syx)

Cheers,
Colin f

> For instance, when I use the firmware upload it tells
> me that the
> upload failed, and when I simply upload the .syx file it
> tells me that there
> were 14 errors. Could I have sent corrupted data?

"I'm not sure what you're doing there...
You can only use firmware upload on P3Tools to transmit a firmware image
.syx file.
What did you mean by 'simply upload the .syx file' ?
What exactly does the display say in P3Tools when you do 'firmware upload',
and select the latest image file (p3fw-3.1.004.syx)"

Sorry - I guess I wasn't clear AND I misunderstood how p3tools works. So,
let me try this again - after I boot up the p3 with func/page selected, and
choose flash, then I use p3tools to upload the bootloader. It tells me that
there were 14 tried on its screen, and the p3 saves size 0680 chk2F31. When
I choose boot, though, it just stays on 'firmware check'. When I boot up the
p3 with func/page and send the 3.1.004.syx file, I get a message on the p3
saying BAD DATA!.





Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Gene, 

> let me try this again - after I boot up the p3 with func/page 
> selected, and
> choose flash, then I use p3tools to upload the bootloader. It 
> tells me that
> there were 14 tried on its screen, and the p3 saves size 0680 
> chk2F31.
> When
> I choose boot, though, it just stays on 'firmware check'.

That sounds like you're trying to load the bootloader update when you've
already got the new bootloader installed.
You already have the bootloader updated, so trying to load it again won't do
anything useful.
 
> When I boot up the
> p3 with func/page and send the 3.1.004.syx file, I get a 
> message on the p3
> saying BAD DATA!.

And this is using the latest build of P3Tools ?
The bootloader update, as well as relocating the bootloader in memory to
support the new CPU type, also changes the sysex maker ID.
If you use an older version of P3Tools, it will send the old sysex ID, which
would give 'BAD DATA' warnings.
Check you've definitely got the latest P3Tools build. If it still gives you
BAD DATA, try MidiOX.

Cheers,
Colin f

-----Original Message-----

From: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin f
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 3:15 PM
To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [analogue-sequencer] Please help - sick P3?


Hi Gene,

> let me try this again - after I boot up the p3 with func/page
> selected, and
> choose flash, then I use p3tools to upload the bootloader. It
> tells me that
> there were 14 tried on its screen, and the p3 saves size 0680
> chk2F31.
> When
> I choose boot, though, it just stays on 'firmware check'.

"That sounds like you're trying to load the bootloader update when you've
already got the new bootloader installed.
You already have the bootloader updated, so trying to load it again won't do
anything useful."

I'm confused now. Wasn't there a bootloader update a few months ago, and
this is the second one? In any case, even if it doesn't do anything useful,
how do I now boot up the p3? Shouldn't a redundant update of the bootloader
be harmless?

> When I boot up the
> p3 with func/page and send the 3.1.004.syx file, I get a
> message on the p3
> saying BAD DATA!.

"And this is using the latest build of P3Tools ?"

I downloaded today for the first time. That should be the new one, I think.

"The bootloader update, as well as relocating the bootloader in memory to
support the new CPU type, also changes the sysex maker ID.
If you use an older version of P3Tools, it will send the old sysex ID, which
would give 'BAD DATA' warnings.
Check you've definitely got the latest P3Tools build. If it still gives you
BAD DATA, try MidiOX."

Got BAD DATA message with midiOX.

Cheers,
Colin f






Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Gene, 

> I'm confused now. Wasn't there a bootloader update a few 
> months ago, and
> this is the second one?

There was a bootloader update T89-3.0, which modified the bootloader so the
same main program would run on both old and new CPUs.
The new CPU needs to have the bootloader at the very bottom of code memory,
while the old CPU was happy with it anywhere, so I had located it (by
default) at the top.
The bootloader update was actually in the form of a new main program update
- since the main program got loaded at the start of code memory, it was
fairly simple to load the new bootloader as a main program, with a little
bit extra code added to re-configure the CPU to boot from there instead of
the old bootloader.

Then I got the official sysex ID so I released a sysex ID patch for
bootloaders that had already been upgraded to 3.0, and replaced the 3.0
bootloader with the 3.1 bootloader update. 3.1 included the new sysex ID, so
it was only a 1 step update for those who hadn't already applied the 3.0
bootloader.
I can see why that might be confusing...

> In any case, even if it doesn't do 
> anything useful,
> how do I now boot up the p3? Shouldn't a redundant update of 
> the bootloader
> be harmless?

It is harmless, but since the new bootloader loads the bootloader update as
if it were a main program, a second copy of the bootloader will be installed
where the main program should be.
If you try to boot this, it gets stuck in a 'Firmware check...' loop,
because it does the firmware check, then boots the main program. but the
first thing the main program does is to reset the firmware check address
pointer and jump back to the firmware check code.
I did think of putting some code into the bootloader to detect if this was
attempted, but that would have pushed it into the next page of code memory,
losing code space that would otherwise be useable by the main program.

> Got BAD DATA message with midiOX.

Maybe with the confusion around the different bootloader updates, you've
actually got the T89-3.0 release on there ?
In that case, try the sysex ID patch, and see if midiOX will load that.
If it loads and runs, then retry the current image.
That's the last explanation I cna think of, let's hope it works...

Cheers,
Colin f

"Then I got the official sysex ID so I released a sysex ID patch for
bootloaders that had already been upgraded to 3.0, and replaced the 3.0
bootloader with the 3.1 bootloader update. 3.1 included the new sysex ID, so
it was only a 1 step update for those who hadn't already applied the 3.0
bootloader.
I can see why that might be confusing..."

Not so much confusing as that I had forgotten the details, especially since
I hadn't been paying as close attention to p3 details recently.

> In any case, even if it doesn't do
> anything useful,
> how do I now boot up the p3? Shouldn't a redundant update of
> the bootloader
> be harmless?

"It is harmless, but since the new bootloader loads the bootloader update as
if it were a main program, a second copy of the bootloader will be installed
where the main program should be.
If you try to boot this, it gets stuck in a 'Firmware check...' loop,
because it does the firmware check, then boots the main program. but the
first thing the main program does is to reset the firmware check address
pointer and jump back to the firmware check code.
I did think of putting some code into the bootloader to detect if this was
attempted, but that would have pushed it into the next page of code memory,
losing code space that would otherwise be useable by the main program."

ok - well, I'm pretty sure that I what happened was that I loaded the 3.0
bootloader a couple of months ago, and then loaded this one.

I tried loading back an earlier O.S. last night (3988.syx) but that didn't
work.

> Got BAD DATA message with midiOX.

"Maybe with the confusion around the different bootloader updates, you've
actually got the T89-3.0 release on there ?
In that case, try the sysex ID patch, and see if midiOX will load that.
If it loads and runs, then retry the current image.
That's the last explanation I cna think of, let's hope it works..."

Well, I definitely have loaded both bootloaders. I think that's what you
mean. So I can try this and see what happens.

Cheers,
Colin f






Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Gene, 

> ok - well, I'm pretty sure that I what happened was that I 
> loaded the 3.0
> bootloader a couple of months ago, and then loaded this one.

Ah, that would mean the new bootloader was loaded as if it were a main
program - so your bootloader will still be the old version.
That would explain why it doesn't like the current build - the syx file has
the official ID, which the 3.0 bootloader doesn't support.
 
I'm pretty confident the sysex ID patch for 3.0 will get you running again.
That be the last bootloader update too.

Cheers,
Colin f

Is it possible to record knob movements from my mks-80 to the p3? It 
sends sysex data I think.

> Is it possible to record knob movements from my mks-80 to the p3? It 
> sends sysex data I think.

Nope. There's no way to transmit sysex from a P3 pattern.
Sysex is not good for realtime control - the messages are usually 6 or 7
bytes long at least, so you need to store a lot of data for a single
message, and it hogs your midi bandwidth.

At the moment, you can't record CC movements into a pattern externally, only
from the P3's own knobs, thought that may appear sometime.

Cheers,
Colin f

"Ah, that would mean the new bootloader was loaded as if it were a main
program - so your bootloader will still be the old version.
That would explain why it doesn't like the current build - the syx file has
the official ID, which the 3.0 bootloader doesn't support.
 
I'm pretty confident the sysex ID patch for 3.0 will get you running again.
That be the last bootloader update too.

Cheers,
Colin f"

Success! 

Thanks muchly,
Gene