Analogue-sequencer

Hi,
i want to know if Cirklon can change via Midi the key of the recorded patterns using a master keyboard, via chord recognition.
For example, if the recorded pattern is in C, pressing a chord in the master keyboard in D, to instanly change the key of the pattern from C to D.

> i want to know if Cirklon can change via Midi the key of the 
> recorded patterns using a master keyboard, via chord recognition.
> For example, if the recorded pattern is in C, pressing a 
> chord in the master keyboard in D, to instanly change the key 
> of the pattern from C to D.

Transposition of patterns from an external keyboard is on the TBI list.
I'm not sure about the harmonizing idea.
I don't see there's enough information in a triad to infer the key.
Do you just mean that an external chord would act as a force-to-scale filter
?

Cheers,
Colin

Yes, for example you set the key, say C, and you set the scale, for example diatonic. Then when you set a new key, say from C to D, all the notes changes corespondly, but thats the way Zyklus MPS worked. Some times like that you get non musical results, so must be a filter in order to make the results more musical.
If you want more detail, i can provide.
 
Regards,
Nic 

From: Colin f <colin@colinfraser.com>
To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: [analogue-sequencer] Cirklon harmonizing


    
 

> i want to know if Cirklon can change via Midi the key of the 
> recorded patterns using a master keyboard, via chord recognition.
> For example, if the recorded pattern is in C, pressing a 
> chord in the master keyboard in D, to instanly change the key 
> of the pattern from C to D.

Transposition of patterns from an external keyboard is on the TBI list.
I'm not sure about the harmonizing idea.
I don't see there's enough information in a triad to infer the key.
Do you just mean that an external chord would act as a force-to-scale filter
?

Cheers,
Colin

   
     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Yes, for example you set the key, say C, and you set the 
> scale, for example diatonic. Then when you set a new key, say 
> from C to D, all the notes changes corespondly, but thats the 
> way Zyklus MPS worked. Some times like that you get non 
> musical results, so must be a filter in order to make the 
> results more musical.
> If you want more detail, i can provide.

That sounds like it might be the same as the P3 implementation.
It's possible to set a remote control channel on P3 so an incoming MIDI note
will transpose the current patterns.
Force-to-scale can be used to keep the notes in a chosen scale, and the
transposition can either be pre- or post-FTS.
That is, the transpose applies to the root note of the FTS scale if
transpose is post-FTS.
This only works based on a single note for the transposition - there's
nothing inferred about changes to the scale if you play a chord.
But maybe that's also the case on the Zyklus ?
This is roughly what I plan to add to Cirklon, but with the ability to
direct control to specific tracks from specific MIDI port/channel inputs.

Cheers,
Colin

Dear Colin,
 
real time transpotition of the patterns is a "must" for a live sequencer like the Cirklon. Nothing quite like this exist in the market today and the ability to control via Midi patterns from an external mother keyboard is something that only Bill Marshall's Zyklus did many years before.
I think that today there is the market for such a device, musicians nowdays appreciate the improvisational music, see the success of Ableton Live. But the real down of Live is, dispite that is software,  it can't transpose the Midi patterns from a keyboard, in a live situation. 
If you want to have some ideas of how i imagine the live manipulation and the transpotition matter, look at the Zyklus/Improvisor project at Yahoo Groups. Check this out.
 
Regards,
Nic

From: Colin f <colin@colinfraser.com>
To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: [analogue-sequencer] Cirklon harmonizing


    
 

> Yes, for example you set the key, say C, and you set the 
> scale, for example diatonic. Then when you set a new key, say 
> from C to D, all the notes changes corespondly, but thats the 
> way Zyklus MPS worked. Some times like that you get non 
> musical results, so must be a filter in order to make the 
> results more musical.
> If you want more detail, i can provide.

That sounds like it might be the same as the P3 implementation.
It's possible to set a remote control channel on P3 so an incoming MIDI note
will transpose the current patterns.
Force-to-scale can be used to keep the notes in a chosen scale, and the
transposition can either be pre- or post-FTS.
That is, the transpose applies to the root note of the FTS scale if
transpose is post-FTS.
This only works based on a single note for the transposition - there's
nothing inferred about changes to the scale if you play a chord.
But maybe that's also the case on the Zyklus ?
This is roughly what I plan to add to Cirklon, but with the ability to
direct control to specific tracks from specific MIDI port/channel inputs.

Cheers,
Colin

   
     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> real time transpotition of the patterns is a "must" for a 
> live sequencer like the Cirklon. Nothing quite like this 
> exist in the market today and the ability to control via Midi 
> patterns from an external mother keyboard is something that 
> only Bill Marshall's Zyklus did many years before.

That's not entirely true... 
Many years ago, I had a Cheetah MQ8.
It had a few obviously Zyklus-inspired tricks - pattern transposition,
patterns as chord memory or arpeggio, and a couple of other things.
But the Cheetah also had the single most stupid feature ever seen on a bit
of music hardware.
It had 8 tracks, and 8 keys which could mute or un-mute the tracks.
But for the sake of saving a few pennies, they didn't put diodes into the
key matrix.
So it couldn't read simultaneous key presses. You couldn't mute or unmute
more than one track at a time.
Rendering it almost entirely useless.
The one good thing that came out of it was that I decided to give up on off
the shelf hardware seqs, and build my own.
P3 had pattern transpose via MIDI, and it's always been in the plan for
Cirklon.
I did wonder if Bill Marshall ever got his Improviser into production.
He contacted me about it in 2004, when he was looking for a manufacturer.
I was already developing P3 at that time, and more as an out-of-control
hobby than a business idea, so I didn't think I'd have time to get involved.
As I remember, none of the other people he'd contacted even replied to say
'no thanks', which put him off the idea at the time.

Cheers,
Colin

Dear Colin,
 
you obviously know more about live manipulation of midi patterns. I honesty didn't had the time to read or watch the specs in detail of the P3 or the Cirklon, so i will do my homework soon...
 
As far as Bill, having been involved in the Direct subject in the SOS Forums back in 2004, i followed all the different projects that Bill had in mind, including the Improvisor... Sadly most people didn't saw the musical opportunity about that, so quickly turned things down. 
But many poople follow the Forum back then, started an interest at that kind of music production. 
So, with help from Bill in some issues, some guy from Finland name Bert Keizer, finally come up with a Max/Msp version of the Direct sequencer, named Zyklus/Improvisor. You can try it in Yahoo groups "ZyklusImprovisor", for know is in beta version, its free to download. This has the handy feature of live transposing the recorded patterns.
I contact Bill since then and sadly he doesn't seem to have the time any more to develop new ideas. So, as far as Improvisor, is in Berts hands from now on.
 
I think Cirklon is amazing, as far as the hardware design and specs. If somehow add in this live transposition from a midi keyboard, will be awesome... I think that hardware is always better for live situations, there are not many hardware seqs in the market today. 
So, keep up the good work...
 
Kind Regards,
Nic

From: Colin f <colin@colinfraser.com>
To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: [analogue-sequencer] Cirklon harmonizing


    
 

> real time transpotition of the patterns is a "must" for a 
> live sequencer like the Cirklon. Nothing quite like this 
> exist in the market today and the ability to control via Midi 
> patterns from an external mother keyboard is something that 
> only Bill Marshall's Zyklus did many years before.

That's not entirely true... 
Many years ago, I had a Cheetah MQ8.
It had a few obviously Zyklus-inspired tricks - pattern transposition,
patterns as chord memory or arpeggio, and a couple of other things.
But the Cheetah also had the single most stupid feature ever seen on a bit
of music hardware.
It had 8 tracks, and 8 keys which could mute or un-mute the tracks.
But for the sake of saving a few pennies, they didn't put diodes into the
key matrix.
So it couldn't read simultaneous key presses. You couldn't mute or unmute
more than one track at a time.
Rendering it almost entirely useless.
The one good thing that came out of it was that I decided to give up on off
the shelf hardware seqs, and build my own.
P3 had pattern transpose via MIDI, and it's always been in the plan for
Cirklon.
I did wonder if Bill Marshall ever got his Improviser into production.
He contacted me about it in 2004, when he was looking for a manufacturer.
I was already developing P3 at that time, and more as an out-of-control
hobby than a business idea, so I didn't think I'd have time to get involved.
As I remember, none of the other people he'd contacted even replied to say
'no thanks', which put him off the idea at the time.

Cheers,
Colin

   
     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>Many years ago, I had a Cheetah MQ8.<<

perhaps not all that surprisingly, I've got one here. it's been gathering dust for a few years, along with several other hardware sequencers that must've seemed like a good idea while I was retail-therapying my way through another dull day at work.... somewhere I've a roland mv30, a kawai something-or-other... I sold the MAM SQ16 to someone who'd had one before & regretted selling his.

I remember finding the cheetah particularly counter-intuitive; as colin mentions, there are some things where two button presses is a bad thing, & some other things where the function you want is so deep in a menu that you just give up. maybe it's time I had another go at it. 

oh wait- there's a cirklon on the table here. :-)

d.