Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

Hello, everyone.

I just found out about this group when k5kip mentioned getting editing
a VFX going with it on the vfx group.

I've had a BCR for a few years now.  I've been mostly using it for
remote control of a Panasonic DA7 digital mixer at church.  (When I
play up front and we don't have a dedicated sound guy to be in back, I
set up my monitor to match the mains and I can tweak the levels from
up front.)

However, I had no idea you could send sysex with it...  Now that I've
discovered this group, I have a ton of questions, and I'm sure they
all could be answered by searching the archives.  But I've already
done a bit, and that's a real slow way to do things, and it doesn't
foster communications anyway, so I'm going to ask a couple of
questions off the bat. 

Pointers to existing messages, even of the "search for this subject"
type, are as welcome as well as direct answers.

0. I don't see a lot of "getting started" info on the wiki.  I could
summarize answers I get to these into a beginners page on the wiki.
Let me know if you think I should.

1. After my purchase of the BCR2000 (I think), Behringer announced the
Mackie emulation mode for the BCF.  But not for the BCR.  Why?  Does
the BCF have more memory or something?   I wanted more controls in
less space, thus chose the BCR over the BCF; price probably also
figured into the picture.

2. Is the BCL sent raw over sysex into the BC2000, or is there some
intermediary?  Is BCL what you get back when you dump the presets?
(Ahh, answered myself, now that I have access to the files; the answer
is yes, correct me if I'm wrong).

3. Did I correctly see that you can take over the four
Store/Learn/Edit/Exit keys?

4. Since I'm trying to move into using Logic as my DAW, what's the
best method to use a BCR with it?  I think I saw some software that
runs on the mac and translates BCR to Mackie HUI or something (putting
the LCD messages on the screen).  Is there any reason to use such a
thing once you know the "inside story?"

I guess that's all I can think of for now.  As long as I'm here,
though, I'll add some relavent personal information:

[Feel free to tune out now...]

I'm a software engineer in my day job, mostly in networking /
communications of some sort.  I spent 10 years at a company whose
specialty was serial ports, so I know about bits and bytes going over
wires.  

(Midi is really just a serial port with different electrical
characteristics, different baud rate than standard serial ports, and
different driver requirements because it's much more sensitve to
latency when compared to most anything else that uses a standard
serial port.)

I started out with midi around 1990, with an Ensoniq VFX and an Amiga
running Bars & Pipes.  Even wrote a VFX sysex librarian on the Amiga,
but never released it.

Besides controlling the mixer, I've used the BCR2000 to do sound
effects for a play, using an LE version of Live if I remember right.

Related equipment I have (in case somebody wants to suggest novel uses
of the BCR that would apply to me):  Ensoniq VFX and VFX-SD, Roland
JV-1080, Alesis D4, DrumKat EZ, Oberheim Drummer, Behringer DDX3216,
M-audio Oxygen8 (1st version).

PC with Windows XP, Emu 1212 IO card, and software that came with that
(I've only really used Sonar LE extensively, for a 3-song CD by my
son's "garage band" of three 6th grade boys, and a 5 song Christmas CD
by my church group).  Emu interface was $99 on sale, PC was purchased
in the sub $300 range, to show to myself what I could do with a whole
setup for less than some audio interfaces...

MacBook, Logic Studio, and M-Audio Quattro.  I want to move to the
laptop for audio work.  Hard to find a decent, inexpensive firewire
audio interface that supports ADAT (needed to interface to both
digital mixers I have access to).  I tried an alesis IO|14, latest
firmware had no way to sync to ADAT.  I'm now saving my money for an
MOTU 8pre.  I'm sure the stuff in Logic Studio would really lend
itself to BCR control!

In closing, I'm glad I found you guys!

--> Steve

-- 
Steve Wahl    steve@...

"'No Child Left Behind' -- Think about those words for a second. How
else do you not leave a child behind unless you hold everyone else
back with him?"
   -- Someone named "Geoffrey" on Slashdot

Hi  Steve

Welcome

> 0. I don't see a lot of "getting started" info on the wiki.  I could
> summarize answers I get to these into a beginners page on the wiki.
> Let me know if you think I should.

Go for it. The more the merrier .
I'll keep an eye on it to help you out.

Did you see the "Documentation" link?
I have been using the BCs for some time now and it is sometimes hard to
see what was difficult.

> 1. After my purchase of the BCR2000 (I think), Behringer announced the
> Mackie emulation mode for the BCF.  But not for the BCR.  Why?  Does
> the BCF have more memory or something?   I wanted more controls in
> less space, thus chose the BCR over the BCF; price probably also
> figured into the picture.

Most likely the moving faders. You could write one for yourself for the
BCR.

> 2. Is the BCL sent raw over sysex into the BC2000, or is there some
> intermediary?  Is BCL what you get back when you dump the presets?
> (Ahh, answered myself, now that I have access to the files; the answer
> is yes, correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, but there are bugs in the BCs that prevent 'all' messages returning
correctly.
It is better to treat BCL as a 'one direction' protocol like Midi.
Any BCL you write should be saved to disk and not just stored on the BC.
It may not come back the same as you sent it.

  > 3. Did I correctly see that you can take over the four
> Store/Learn/Edit/Exit keys?

All controls can  be taken over (this can, of course, lock the preset
switches . You have been warned 8)   )

> 4. Since I'm trying to move into using Logic as my DAW, what's the
> best method to use a BCR with it?  I think I saw some software that
> runs on the mac and translates BCR to Mackie HUI or something (putting
> the LCD messages on the screen).  Is there any reason to use such a
> thing once you know the "inside story?"

I use Sonar so I'll leave this to others.

> Related equipment I have (in case somebody wants to suggest novel uses
> of the BCR that would apply to me):  Ensoniq VFX and VFX-SD, Roland
> JV-1080, Alesis D4, DrumKat EZ, Oberheim Drummer, Behringer DDX3216,
> M-audio Oxygen8 (1st version).

How about a real time controller for the JV-1080.
A BCR preset would be a great way to get into the BCL

All the best

Royce

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:54:18AM -0000, k5kip_1999 wrote:
> Welcome Steve,
> 
> So did you try the VFX control?

Sorry, I haven't had a chance.  The BCR is still at church, you
see. :-) I've kind of gotten used to leaving it there.  

[My wife and I have three kids, 16, 13, and 7 years old, all in
various activities, so time is a precious commodity for me.  For
instance, I've had Logic Studio, with all it's wonderful software
instruments, since christmas, and haven't even hooked up a keyboard to
it yet.  So, don't expect *too* much progress from me in a short
time.]

In fact, with all my equipment, I've rarely used midi to connect to a
computer.  I use it extensively to control the JV-1080 with the VFX,
though.

> ...
> I also, need to write some kind of thing that will set the .txinterval
> back to 2.
> You can do it manually tho and the VFX really needs to have it on 100 to
> work with out lots of midi sysex errors.

It's funny; when it was new, the VFX was one of few synths that could
usually take patch dumps at full speed w/o pauses in the stream.  But
I'm sure this is using different sysex messages than the bulk dump
would.

> > I've been mostly using it for remote control of a Panasonic DA7
> > digital mixer at church.  
> 
> That's a good use.

And you might be surprised how far MIDI can travel under adverse
conditions, specs be damned!

I used two mic cords and four MIDI DIN5 connectors to make adapter
cables, and I send MIDI from the BCR through in-wall XLR mic
connections back to the sound desk, where I convert back from XLR to
midi DIN5 and connect to the mixer.  So in essence it's going through
a snake.

99% of my usage is one button that mutes the mains while we're not
playing. :-)

Thanks for the info about mackie emulation.

> OR - write your own cross platform display for pc/mac and Linux. Sounds
> like you might be able to do this.
> I wanted to do something like this and had considered Java to accomplish
> it. I wanted to make something free for all to use. The LCD emulation,
> basically, is parsing midi sysex coming out of the daw software.
> However, I don't have the programming skills to accomplish this task.
> I do have the source code for Huskervu, done in C#..

I might have the skills, but I probably lack the time.  By the time I
got my Amiga sys-ex librarian for the VFX truly finished, the amiga
had pretty much become a moot platform. :-(  Part of the problem is I
don't do user interface coding much, so it takes me a while when I
have to do it.

> I'd like to know if the my vfx preset works with the SD and what changes
> would need to be made to make it work better with the sd?
> Or do we need separate preset.
> Btw - y0u can load the .bc2 files into bcmanager now.

I'll let you know once I find out.  I do know the VFX went through a
few iterations of reving the sys-ex protocol to make it (more)
compatible with the VFX-SD.  So, with any luck, it may just work.

> 
> > JV-1080, Alesis D4, DrumKat EZ, Oberheim Drummer, Behringer DDX3216,
> > M-audio Oxygen8 (1st version).
> 
> DrumKat (you a drummer?)

If I can claim to be a keyboard player, I can claim to be a drummer,
too.  Not all that great at either of them, but I enjoy myself, and
I'm better than "nothing".

> I bet you can do remote editors for
> the drumKat, Oberheim Drummer, and the JV-1080 (as Royce said) as well s
> the D4.

DrumKat EZ would be really hard w/o more of a display for feedback
(but perhaps you could get the DK EZ's on-board display to help); it's
mostly what note number(s) each pad sends, how many they send, layered
or cross faded, etc.  And it's the EZ version, which was between the
DK10 (low end) and the DrumKat.  When they thinned down the product
line, the EZ was canned.  I don't think there's many out there, so
it's unlikely anyone else would benefit.  I've also not found the need
to stray too far from the built-in presets for the D4.

Oberheim drummer?  Not sure, but I only use it as a fancy metronome,
anyway.

D4?  Well, it at least has volume and pan for each drum.  So, maybe.

JV-1080 would of course be the golden opportunity on the list,
especially since you've done the VFX already. :-) One of the freebie
sys-ex editors for the JV (the one called ChangeIt!, I think) had a
sub-section that sent a patch that was set up similar to a mini-moog,
and then let you tweak the knobs on screen.  That might be a good
start.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

--> Steve

-- 
Steve Wahl    steve@...

Real men don't take backups, they just "mv home.tar.gz
olsen_twins_hottub.mpg" and share it on KaZaA  -- Unknown

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 07:50:13AM -0000, rpcfender wrote:
> 
> > 2. Is the BCL sent raw over sysex into the BC2000, or is there some
> > intermediary?  Is BCL what you get back when you dump the presets?
> > (Ahh, answered myself, now that I have access to the files; the answer
> > is yes, correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> Yes, but there are bugs in the BCs that prevent 'all' messages
> returning correctly.
> 
> It is better to treat BCL as a 'one direction' protocol like Midi.
> Any BCL you write should be saved to disk and not just stored on the
> BC.  It may not come back the same as you sent it.

That makes sense.  

It still seems unusual to me that full ascii text is sent as sys-ex,
rather than some of the usual binary gibberish, I mean, some encoded
form of the data.  Having experience with other sysex protocols, I
half expected that you write this BCL and run it through a translating
program that produces the actual sys-ex bytes that you send.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm *glad* to hear that's not the case!

Sending actual ascii text instead of a binary blob actually makes a
lot of sense.  As firmware is upgraded, it's not as easy to add
settings for new features into the sys-ex and still remain compatible
with old sys-ex files if you use a binary blob.

--> Steve
-- 
Steve Wahl    steve@...

"If you haven't tried NCSA Mosaic to travel the Internet, then you are
missing the best way to experience the Internet...Its so good, I think
we should make a WWW server [here], and get a [256kbps] connection to
the Internet."  -- Rick Richardson, 9 Aug 1993

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Steve Wahl <steve@...> wrote:
> It still seems unusual to me that full ascii text is sent as sys-ex,
> rather than some of the usual binary gibberish, I mean, some encoded
> form of the data.  Having experience with other sysex protocols, I
> half expected that you write this BCL and run it through a translating
> program that produces the actual sys-ex bytes that you send.  
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm *glad* to hear that's not the case!
> 
> Sending actual ascii text instead of a binary blob actually makes a
> lot of sense.  As firmware is upgraded, it's not as easy to add
> settings for new features into the sys-ex and still remain compatible
> with old sys-ex files if you use a binary blob.

In theory you are right that BCL's text format is more 
upgrade-compatible. However, having spent months trying to get to
grips with BCL and its bugs and quirks, I feel permitted to say that I
don't like BCL at all, and would have preferred an old-fashioned,
compact sysex format:

For one thing, Behringer themselves have never released any syntactic 
details of BCL. This means that it has no advantage to end users (over 
binary sysex data): all you notice is how excruciatingly long it takes 
to upload a preset to the BCF/BCR: if Behringer had used a purely
binary sysex format, an upload would have taken perhaps a tenth of the
time it takes now.

Secondly, BCL is probably the sloppiest computer language I have ever 
seen. Just read BC MIDI Implementation.pdf and you'll see what I mean.

By the way: I fished the very acronym "BCL" from out of the BC-EDIT 
binaries - and I'm still not sure that it really means "B-Control 
Language". Someone recently suggested "Behringer Coding Language" - 
personally I'm leaning more and more towards "Badly Constructed Lingo"...

Mark.

On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 10:29:16AM -0000, Mark van den Berg wrote:
> > ...
> > Sending actual ascii text instead of a binary blob actually makes a
> > lot of sense.  As firmware is upgraded, it's not as easy to add
> > settings for new features into the sys-ex and still remain compatible
> > with old sys-ex files if you use a binary blob.
> 
> In theory you are right that BCL's text format is more 
> upgrade-compatible. However, having spent months trying to get to
> grips with BCL and its bugs and quirks, I feel permitted to say that I
> don't like BCL at all, and would have preferred an old-fashioned,
> compact sysex format: ...

I hear your pain!  I guess instead of "makes a lot of sense," I should
have said "can make a lot of sense if done right!"

--> Steve

-- 
Steve Wahl    steve@...

"If you haven't tried NCSA Mosaic to travel the Internet, then you are
missing the best way to experience the Internet...Its so good, I think
we should make a WWW server [here], and get a [256kbps] connection to
the Internet."  -- Rick Richardson, 9 Aug 1993