Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

Mark,
the save to standard MIDI file option seems so far to be doing exactly 
what it should except for some stupid reason Ableton Live won't react 
to the controller data unless I "touch" it with the pencil tool first..
So it seems like even though Live reads the file fine and shows the 
controller "envelopes" fine Live won't recognize the "envelopes" as 
controller data unless Live adds it's "tag?" first.
I'm quite certain a controller snapshot I recorded in Cubase SX 
responded without interferance in Live but I will have to find a chance 
to test that again to be sure..
..so close!

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"
<islandgroove2002@...> wrote:
> the save to standard MIDI file option seems so far to be doing exactly 
> what it should except for some stupid reason Ableton Live won't react 
> to the controller data unless I "touch" it with the pencil tool first..
> So it seems like even though Live reads the file fine and shows the 
> controller "envelopes" fine Live won't recognize the "envelopes" as 
> controller data unless Live adds it's "tag?" first.
> I'm quite certain a controller snapshot I recorded in Cubase SX 
> responded without interferance in Live but I will have to find a chance 
> to test that again to be sure..
> ..so close!

Well, I did warn you that things might still go wrong, having had too
many experiences concerning this type of inter-application
communication...

There might be something about the MIDI file format BC Manager creates
that Live doesn't like, but unfortunately I don't have Ableton Live
myself, so I can't test/fix the problem for you. If you find a file
(e.g. made in Cubase) that does work immediately, you could send it to
me so that I might be able to find out what's wrong.

Mark.

Some further thoughts:

The problem might be that Live doesn't immediately see controller
events that have a timestamp other than zero.
To find out if this is the case, you could create a MIDI file in BC
Manager that only includes one or more events with a timestamp of zero.
(For all events recorded at exactly the same time as the first event
you save, BC Manager generates a timestamp of zero. So the first event
saved ALWAYS has a timestamp of zero.)
If Live does react to all events with a timestamp of zero, I can
simply build in an option to set all timestamps to zero.

Alternatively, Live might require an initial Control Change message
with a value of zero in front of any "actual" CC message (as is the
case in its own MIDI files). This would be slightly more difficult
(and very "ad hoc"!) to implement in BC Manager.

Mark.

Hold the phone...!
It looks like your midi files might be just fine after all.
I hooked everything up to the computer with Cubase SX3 installed and 
tested the snapshot midi files there and they seemed to work 
fine.Then I exported the same midi file from Cubase to see if it 
would change anything, loaded it into an older demo of Live 7 on that 
same computer and it worked fine!Then I loaded the original snapshot 
and it worked fine.I then reinstalled my current version of Live and 
I am getting sporadic success but sometimes the midi file just 
doesn't trigger anything.Disabling any midi yoke inputs and outputs 
seemed to increase Ableton's ability to resend the messages to the 
BCF2000 but it's still missing sometimes as well as not setting the 
buttons right everytime.The earlier Ableton demo is working 
flawlessly so far as sending controller positions imbeded in the midi 
file back to the BCF2000 goes so it looks like I have some serious 
debugging to do on my end...
I guess the first step is to install an older Live update and if that 
works then I guess it's a problem within the Live itself.
If not...?

Do you have a paypal address so I can shoot you a few bucks in 
appreciation of all your efforts?Might be a week or so but I 
definately feel I should pitch in..

Yeah, this is goofy.I now have the Live demo installed and set to 
defaults on two xp boot partitions on the same computer and the one on 
my stripped down to minimum services install still only sporadicly 
relays the controller snapshots properly without first editing each cc 
graph and the one on the general use bogged down with junk install is 
relaying the snapshots perfectly.I cannot imagine what would be causing 
this...I don't want to reinstall my music OS.grrr...
but this is getting beyond the topic of BCMan...other than to confirm 
100% that the save snapshot to midi feature is working great on the 
wrong half of my computer..

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"
<islandgroove2002@...> wrote:
> Hold the phone...!
> It looks like your midi files might be just fine after all.
> I guess the first step is to install an older Live update and if that 
> works then I guess it's a problem within the Live itself.
> If not...?

Very curious!

I was already starting to think of uploading a test version of
BCMan.exe with a dialog box in which you could set all the options
concerning the saving of MIDI files (include a track name or not, use
running status or not, set all message times to 0 or not, etc.): then
you could try to pinpoint the problem. However, it seems that this can
wait right now. Still, let me know if and when you feel it might be
useful.

> Do you have a paypal address so I can shoot you a few bucks in 
> appreciation of all your efforts?Might be a week or so but I 
> definately feel I should pitch in..

You can donate via BC Manager itself from the main window's Help menu
via Donate: this opens a dialog box in which you can select your
currency, and you are directed to the Paypal website.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"
<islandgroove2002@...> wrote:
> Yeah, this is goofy.I now have the Live demo installed and set to 
> defaults on two xp boot partitions on the same computer and the one on 
> my stripped down to minimum services install still only sporadicly 
> relays the controller snapshots properly without first editing each cc 
> graph and the one on the general use bogged down with junk install is 
> relaying the snapshots perfectly.I cannot imagine what would be causing 
> this...I don't want to reinstall my music OS.grrr...

If I understood your previous message correctly, you said then that
only the FULL Live has problems. So if the DEMO can also have
problems, there may be a timing problem, related to the processor load
(which can vary depending on the amount of "other stuff" running).

Just a wild guess: one of the many things you might try is look at CPU
Usage on the Performance tab of Windows Task Manager (accessed by
pressing Ctrl+Alt+Del). Some programs (esp. older applications running
under DOS boxes etc.) can cause CPU usage to become 100% constantly,
which can cause weird problems in all programs. However, in your case
it seems more like a REVERSE problem, where you NEED a lot of other
stuff, so I don't know...

How do the MIDI files Live generates itself (like the one you sent me
a while ago) fare? Do those files ALSO suffer from these problems? If
they DON'T, I might still try to match that format completely in BC
Manager's MIDI output files, effectively solving your concrete problem.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"

> If I understood your previous message correctly, you said then that
> only the FULL Live has problems. So if the DEMO can also have
> problems, there may be a timing problem, related to the processor load

I actually went so far as to install the same Live demo version on both 
boot partitions.
My non music partition was working perfectly with the snapshot midi 
files from the get go, my music partion not so lucky.
I did manage to get it working however,  even though how I got it 
working makes no sense in relation to it working fine without any help 
on a different boot partition of the same computer.

My first breakthrough was when I disabled clip launch quantization in 
Live.Suddenly it was working partially.The real solution was to use the 
option in Live to start playback of the midi file from a tiny bit into 
the file.That made the controller data kick everytime.Just strange that 
it would work fine without that on the other OS boot.It really seems to 
boil down to that there must be something lingering on my music boot OS 
that causes less reliable midi transmission.I don't know what else to 
think!?

The only real issue that remains besides the ghost in my computer is 
how to transmit an ablolute on or off value to the buttons?Best I can 
do is to get them to toggle one way or the other every time they 
receive midi data.

Oh, and also sometimes the midi files that are saved end up very long 
and I'm not sure why.I do press stop when the snapshot has finished 
receiving.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"
<islandgroove2002@...> wrote:
> My first breakthrough was when I disabled clip launch quantization in 
> Live.Suddenly it was working partially.The real solution was to use the 
> option in Live to start playback of the midi file from a tiny bit into 
> the file.That made the controller data kick everytime.Just strange that 
> it would work fine without that on the other OS boot.It really seems to 
> boil down to that there must be something lingering on my music boot OS 
> that causes less reliable midi transmission.I don't know what else to 
> think!?

I've been suspecting that the fact that BC Manager saves the exact
recording times may have something to do with it, but I'm not sure. In
any case I've now implemented an option to save a sequence of MIDI
messages (recorded in the MIDI input messages window) with all times
set to zero, so once the new version of BC Manager is released you'll
be able to try and see if that helps.

> Oh, and also sometimes the midi files that are saved end up very long 
> and I'm not sure why.I do press stop when the snapshot has finished 
> receiving.

Are you talking about BC Manager's saving operation (from the MIDI
input messages window)? Unless there's a bug in this operation, I
can't see how this could happen: the operation should save exactly
those recorded messages that are currently selected (highlighted).

Mark.

> 
> Are you talking about BC Manager's saving operation (from the MIDI
> input messages window)? Unless there's a bug in this operation, I
> can't see how this could happen: the operation should save exactly
> those recorded messages that are currently selected (highlighted).
> 
> Mark.
>
Yep, I sometimes get really long midi files as a result of the save to 
midi file.The controller data is continuous throughout.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"
<islandgroove2002@...> wrote:
> Yep, I sometimes get really long midi files as a result of the save to 
> midi file.The controller data is continuous throughout.

How long exactly is "really long"?
Can you send me an example? (If there's something wrong with BC
Manager's saving algorithm, I might be able to find out what's wrong.)

Mark.

Is there any way I can control the EQ in Adobe Audition 3.0 with a
BCF2000 with v1.07 firmware used in Mackie Control mode? I would really
like to control mid, low, high, q factor and shelve frequency with
knobs, doing it with a mouse just hurts my hand and is slow.

All Audition seems to know by default is a Mackie control, but if
there's any other way to get it working that would also be fine.

I seem to remember that with the 1.10 firmware (from my old broken
BCF2000) I could also control channel panning with the rotary knobs,
with this 1.07 machine turning the rotaries doesn't do anything. Could
anyone confirm this?

Oh, and pushing the rotary does a channel select just like one of the
push buttons above the sliders. Seems a waste of a perfectly good button
to me to have this functionality double, is there a way to re-map this,
using the other button for a channel solo for example?

Mark, 
I've had a couple of revelations as of late.The big one is that the 
midi input messages window can capture multiple snapshots into one midi 
file, the other being that now that I've purchased plogue bidule and 
can use it as a vst in Live,via the bidule midi file player I can pipe 
all eight midi channels of cc info directly into the iac bus for 
sending the messages into Live.(this means no more eight midi tracks in 
Live each containing a cc clip for each pattern I write  and all the 
micromanagement that goes with it)
This is where I'm running into problems with how spread out the data in 
the midi file is. When I load snapshots into BCMan sequentially and 
save them as a midi file, the playback takes way too long to use in a 
live environment.
If there was a way to make all the data start at 0, that would be 
great. Would there would be any concern with choking the midi bus with 
eight channels of cc information sent all at once?

...oh yeah also, if I am playing the midi file from within bidule, I 
would have no need for cc filtering options in BCMan's midi file save 
as bidule has a nice cc filter built in.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "islandgroove2002"
<islandgroove2002@...> wrote:
> I've had a couple of revelations as of late.The big one is that the 
> midi input messages window can capture multiple snapshots into one midi 
> file, the other being that now that I've purchased plogue bidule and 
> can use it as a vst in Live,via the bidule midi file player I can pipe 
> all eight midi channels of cc info directly into the iac bus for 
> sending the messages into Live.(this means no more eight midi tracks in 
> Live each containing a cc clip for each pattern I write  and all the 
> micromanagement that goes with it)
> This is where I'm running into problems with how spread out the data in 
> the midi file is. When I load snapshots into BCMan sequentially and 
> save them as a midi file, the playback takes way too long to use in a 
> live environment.
> If there was a way to make all the data start at 0, that would be 
> great. Would there would be any concern with choking the midi bus with 
> eight channels of cc information sent all at once?

That depends: if you're doing it while playing a MIDI song, you CAN
cause hiccups in the song, but otherwise there shouldn't be a problem,
unless a receiving MIDI device or program starts skipping data, but
I've never heard of that.

The "all 0" option is very easy to implement. In fact, I've already
done it a few weeks ago, so the next version of BC Manager will have it!

I'll just look if the "big MIDI file" issue you brought up earlier
requires any fixes, but apart from that the new version (probably
"1.5.1") should be only a few days away.

Mark.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "Mark van den Berg" <markwinvdb@...> wrote:
> I'll just look if the "big MIDI file" issue you brought up earlier
> requires any fixes

I've now looked at the MIDI file you sent me:

There seems to be absolutely nothing wrong with the format as such, so
there's no bug in BC Manager in this respect.

The main factor contributing to the relatively large size of this
particular file is that it consists of TWO separate Control Change
dumps (each being a sequence of CC messages for (roughly) controllers
1-32, then 81-104, 33-80 and 105-110).

So I can only assume that you pressed the "Snapshot" button twice
(without clearing the recorded messages in the MIDI input messages
window), then selected them all, and then saved them. So the best
thing to do is probably to press the "Clear" button in the MIDI input
messages window after each save: in that way your MIDI files won't
contain multiple sets of control change messages. Remember that only
those messages are saved that are currently selected (highlighted).

Hope this helps,
Mark.

I'm repeating the question below (I asked before) with the difference
that I now upgraded my BCF2000 to firmware 1.10 and it doesn't make a
difference.

Is there any way I can figure out myself what signals Audition would
need to control pan and EQ, and how do I adjust the standard bcf2000
mackie control mode? Or do I have to build my own?

Here is my earlier post:

> Is there any way I can control the EQ in Adobe Audition 3.0 
> with a BCF2000 with v1.07 firmware used in Mackie Control 
> mode? I would really like to control mid, low, high, q factor 
> and shelve frequency with knobs, doing it with a mouse just 
> hurts my hand and is slow.
> 
> All Audition seems to know by default is a Mackie control, 
> but if there's any other way to get it working that would 
> also be fine.
> 
> I seem to remember that with the 1.10 firmware (from my old broken
> BCF2000) I could also control channel panning with the rotary 
> knobs, with this 1.07 machine turning the rotaries doesn't do 
> anything. Could anyone confirm this?
> 
> Oh, and pushing the rotary does a channel select just like 
> one of the push buttons above the sliders. Seems a waste of a 
> perfectly good button to me to have this functionality 
> double, is there a way to re-map this, using the other button 
> for a channel solo for example?

Well, it seems I have to answer my own question, but i document it here
for later reference for myself and others.

It took me a lot of digging but on some forum i found out i should use
the MCSo mode on the BCF2000 with Audition, and then in the release
notes for firmware 1.07 (!) i stumbled upon pictures of the layout of
all the knobs (by accident!). When using the buttons labeled Store and
Edit i can finally control EQ and PAN.
And when using BCFview i can finally see what i'm doing.

I still have a few problems to solve though:

- i can't turn 2 panpots at the same time, this freaks Audition out, it
keeps swapping between 'selected' channels
- i need to rotate the controls way too much before i get pan full L or
full R. The resolution is just too high. Can this be altered?
- With the faders all the way down audition sees level as -160 dB, not
-endless
- I want to use all rotators for EQ parameters on one channel, as
opposed to using one rotator and having to step through parameters
- i'd like to assign one button as REC instead of having to press
shift-play to record.

Any input would still be welcome.

Hmm, i just got mail: somebody offers me a Tascam US2400.