Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

First,

Mark, thanks for this great piece of software. The BC2000 + your soft
is great combination to get almost any legacy synth to work using sysex.

I used to program pc1600x manually:) That was a nightmare compared to
using your soft. Also my recent BC2000 syx file creation is almost
500kb. That was not possible with pc16000x The pc1600 has only 64k.

My questions:

1. Is there a way to use a sysex message (type get a parameter value)
to show the current value from synth on
the display of BRC ? or lit an appropriate LED ? I would need this
function only on crucial
rotaries such as choosing wave for a patch. (there are 1024 waveforms
... :)

2. Where is a wish-list for BCR2000 or wish-list for yoursoft ? I was
trying to locate send-feedback on behringer site I couldn't find the form 

thank you
NameSys02

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "namesys02" <namesys02@...> wrote:
(...)Is there a way to use a sysex message (type get a parameter 
value) to show the current value from synth on the display of BRC ? 
or lit an appropriate LED ?(...)
---------------------------------------------------------------
This is tweak part of all midi controllers : when you switch the 
patch on the controlled synth, how does the controller know the 
current values for its knobs ?

The question that should come before is, how does the controller asks 
for current values ? Then, the first question is how does it even 
knows the values have changed ?

The easy path would be to have the synth send automatically all CC 
values for its current patch settings  when you switch patch, but 
that does not exist on the market (i believe...).

The first thing would be to initiate the patch change of the synth 
from the BCR, this way the BCR knows something has changed.

Then you could have the BCR send a sysex of type 'request' (not all 
synth have such a message in their protocol :( ).

But at the end, the synth would send a single sysex message for the 
current patch data... Unfortunately, the BCR does not have a function 
to EXTRACT a data from a sysex, even less it does not have a way to 
extract SEVERAL data from a sysex, and worst is it does not have a 
function to CONVERT binary data from manufacturers formats... wich 
are always weird or exotic at best. If you collate what is in 
uppercase above, the problem can shortens to:
 extract + several + convert

If you think of using Bome's Midi Translater on the PC to 
automatically translate a Sysex to a collection of CC recognized by 
the BCR, then no luck : BMT does not handle sysex in input, only in 
output...

I have come up with a workaround solution for my own case where a 
Novation DrumStation was to be controlled from the BCR:

First of all the DrumStation does not recognize sysex request... to 
bad. So to update the BCR values i have to initiate the sysex sending 
directly on the DrumStation by pressing three buttons. 

From there the DrumStation is plugged to the computer where a small 
home made VB program (using MidiOx in background) receives the sysex 
patch, extracts all data and converts everything to a collection of 
CC change. Then it sends the CC collection to the BCR. It is magic ! 
All lights show the current value.

Note: the decoding of the DrumStation sysex message wasn't the easy 
part without any available document from Novation...

As you can see there is a good new and bad one: the good news is that 
there is a way to set current values of the BCR, the bad new is you 
have to develop your own software to do it !

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "namesys02" <namesys02@...> wrote:
> 1. Is there a way to use a sysex message (type get a parameter value)
> to show the current value from synth on
> the display of BRC ? or lit an appropriate LED ? I would need this
> function only on crucial
> rotaries such as choosing wave for a patch. (there are 1024 waveforms
> ... :)

Bernard has already replied to this in depth, so let me just add a few
general remarks:

As far as I know it's impossible to control the 4 characters in the
BCR's display directly via external sysex messages - if that was what
you were after.

So all you can do is to build a one-to-one, bidirectional
correspondence between specific synth parameters and individual
buttons and encoders (hence: their LEDs).

However, in principle this can only be done for synth parameters that
can be sent and received via CC messages - or more precisely, via
messages that fall under the BCR's category of "standard output" (in
BC Manager's terms).

You CAN have the BCR SEND any parameter-linked SysEx message via a
"custom output" definition, but any button/encoder thus defined does
not LISTEN to the very same SysEx messages. A relevant quote from "BC
MIDI Implementation.pdf":

[T]he BC interprets incoming parameter feedback via MIDI only
according to the element's standard output definition; the BC does not
use any custom output definitions to synchronize the element's current
Value. In other words, custom output definitions are "deaf".

So, as Bernard described, for synth parameters using SysEx messages
it's only possible to have the BCR synchronize to them by converting
these messages to e.g. CC messages via a translation program.

> 2. Where is a wish-list for BCR2000 or wish-list for yoursoft ? I was
> trying to locate send-feedback on behringer site I couldn't find the
form 

About a year ago several people in our Yahoo group uplodaded a few
files specifying BCx2000 upgrade requests to the group's Files
section, but there is hardly any prospect of Behringer actually coming
up with new firmware versions, so there hasn't been much activity in
this area lately.

Concerning BC Manager: there is a wish-list at the bottom of the
manual. Admittedly it's currently very short - read into that what you
will...! Anyway, if you have any requests, just post them in this
group, and I'll reply: if it's a small feature, I might be able to
implement it directly,  if it's more complicated I might add it to the
manual's wishlist. (By the way: I also have a PRIVATE wishlist, which
is MUCH longer than the one in the manual!)

Mark.

Just purchased a JX-8P a couple of days ago (SO STOKED) and got the JX-8P preset for the BCR2000 installed -- big up to klorisk (thanks for posting that, really appreciate it).

I'm thinking of taking it one step further and implementing a VB app that would enable parameter feedback.

Wondering how the VB code was written using " . . . a small home made VB program (using MidiOx in background) receives the sysex patch, extracts all data and converts everything to a collection of CC change. Then it sends the CC collection to the BCR. It is magic !"

I can't stand the jumping of values and the LED parameter feedback would be awesome if it were bi-directional.  Not even sure if this is even possible.  If I can accomplish this then the BCR2000 will be even better than the GP-800 for controlling the JX-8P.

Can I accomplish this with just the the MIDI OX COM and VB or are other libraries or modules necessary?

Has anyone else developed parameter feedback for different synths?

I've got the JX-8P MIDI implementation chart from the manual and I can code in VB; however, any suggestions or hints in the right direction would be much appreciated.

Which would be the best operation mode to accomplish this (i.e. S4, S3 w MIDI OUT B/THRU, etc.)?

Many thanks,
Joey.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@...> wrote:

>
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "namesys02" <namesys02@> wrote:
> (...)Is there a way to use a sysex message (type get a parameter 
> value) to show the current value from synth on the display of BRC ? 
> or lit an appropriate LED ?(...)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> This is tweak part of all midi controllers : when you switch the 
> patch on the controlled synth, how does the controller know the 
> current values for its knobs ?
> 
> The question that should come before is, how does the controller asks 
> for current values ? Then, the first question is how does it even 
> knows the values have changed ?
> 
> The easy path would be to have the synth send automatically all CC 
> values for its current patch settings  when you switch patch, but 
> that does not exist on the market (i believe...).
> 
> The first thing would be to initiate the patch change of the synth 
> from the BCR, this way the BCR knows something has changed.
> 
> Then you could have the BCR send a sysex of type 'request' (not all 
> synth have such a message in their protocol :( ).
> 
> But at the end, the synth would send a single sysex message for the 
> current patch data... Unfortunately, the BCR does not have a function 
> to EXTRACT a data from a sysex, even less it does not have a way to 
> extract SEVERAL data from a sysex, and worst is it does not have a 
> function to CONVERT binary data from manufacturers formats... wich 
> are always weird or exotic at best. If you collate what is in 
> uppercase above, the problem can shortens to:
>  extract + several + convert
> 
> If you think of using Bome's Midi Translater on the PC to 
> automatically translate a Sysex to a collection of CC recognized by 
> the BCR, then no luck : BMT does not handle sysex in input, only in 
> output...
> 
> I have come up with a workaround solution for my own case where a 
> Novation DrumStation was to be controlled from the BCR:
> 
> First of all the DrumStation does not recognize sysex request... to 
> bad. So to update the BCR values i have to initiate the sysex sending 
> directly on the DrumStation by pressing three buttons. 
> 
> From there the DrumStation is plugged to the computer where a small 
> home made VB program (using MidiOx in background) receives the sysex 
> patch, extracts all data and converts everything to a collection of 
> CC change. Then it sends the CC collection to the BCR. It is magic ! 
> All lights show the current value.
> 
> Note: the decoding of the DrumStation sysex message wasn't the easy 
> part without any available document from Novation...
> 
> As you can see there is a good new and bad one: the good news is that 
> there is a way to set current values of the BCR, the bad new is you 
> have to develop your own software to do it !
>

Joey,
this sounds like a good idea.
Take an ordinary all CC preset for the BC.

The VB program should grab the CC, use its type value to find the correct parameter.
Use the CC amount value to give you what ever parameter value for the sysex.
Perhaps have a bulk dump as you memory area inside VB.
If the sysex needs it, calculate the checksum 
Output the sysex

Need more values - assign the CC values of the bottom 4 buttons to have 'Pages' of sysex messages - you would need to update the CC values to reflect the new page.

Going back from the synth to the BC
When changing patches - 
Fill the bulk dump memory in VB with the sysex patch data.
Go through all the values for that BC page and output the CC values to the BC

Output the CC to the BC -
Use a mapping of the Patch Bulk data to find the values of the parameter
Convert bulk data value to 0 to 128 - so there is a limitation -
Use the CC to bulk data map to assign the CC type value
Output the CC message

Quite a bit of work. Although once done you would only have to change the Patch parameter map and the bulk to CC map for another synth.

To make it easier for you, you will need an active X Midi library 
There are a few on the web.

Let us all know how you get on.

All the best

Royce


--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "djo3yk" <djo3yk@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> Just purchased a JX-8P a couple of days ago (SO STOKED) and got the JX-8P preset for the BCR2000 installed -- big up to klorisk (thanks for posting that, really appreciate it).
> 
> I'm thinking of taking it one step further and implementing a VB app that would enable parameter feedback.
> 
> Wondering how the VB code was written using " . . . a small home made VB program (using MidiOx in background) receives the sysex patch, extracts all data and converts everything to a collection of CC change. Then it sends the CC collection to the BCR. It is magic !"
> 
> I can't stand the jumping of values and the LED parameter feedback would be awesome if it were bi-directional.  Not even sure if this is even possible.  If I can accomplish this then the BCR2000 will be even better than the GP-800 for controlling the JX-8P.
> 
> Can I accomplish this with just the the MIDI OX COM and VB or are other libraries or modules necessary?
> 
> Has anyone else developed parameter feedback for different synths?
> 
> I've got the JX-8P MIDI implementation chart from the manual and I can code in VB; however, any suggestions or hints in the right direction would be much appreciated.
> 
> Which would be the best operation mode to accomplish this (i.e. S4, S3 w MIDI OUT B/THRU, etc.)?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Joey.
> 
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.escaillas" <escaillas@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "namesys02" <namesys02@> wrote:
> > (...)Is there a way to use a sysex message (type get a parameter 
> > value) to show the current value from synth on the display of BRC ? 
> > or lit an appropriate LED ?(...)
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > This is tweak part of all midi controllers : when you switch the 
> > patch on the controlled synth, how does the controller know the 
> > current values for its knobs ?
> > 
> > The question that should come before is, how does the controller asks 
> > for current values ? Then, the first question is how does it even 
> > knows the values have changed ?
> > 
> > The easy path would be to have the synth send automatically all CC 
> > values for its current patch settings  when you switch patch, but 
> > that does not exist on the market (i believe...).
> > 
> > The first thing would be to initiate the patch change of the synth 
> > from the BCR, this way the BCR knows something has changed.
> > 
> > Then you could have the BCR send a sysex of type 'request' (not all 
> > synth have such a message in their protocol :( ).
> > 
> > But at the end, the synth would send a single sysex message for the 
> > current patch data... Unfortunately, the BCR does not have a function 
> > to EXTRACT a data from a sysex, even less it does not have a way to 
> > extract SEVERAL data from a sysex, and worst is it does not have a 
> > function to CONVERT binary data from manufacturers formats... wich 
> > are always weird or exotic at best. If you collate what is in 
> > uppercase above, the problem can shortens to:
> >  extract + several + convert
> > 
> > If you think of using Bome's Midi Translater on the PC to 
> > automatically translate a Sysex to a collection of CC recognized by 
> > the BCR, then no luck : BMT does not handle sysex in input, only in 
> > output...
> > 
> > I have come up with a workaround solution for my own case where a 
> > Novation DrumStation was to be controlled from the BCR:
> > 
> > First of all the DrumStation does not recognize sysex request... to 
> > bad. So to update the BCR values i have to initiate the sysex sending 
> > directly on the DrumStation by pressing three buttons. 
> > 
> > From there the DrumStation is plugged to the computer where a small 
> > home made VB program (using MidiOx in background) receives the sysex 
> > patch, extracts all data and converts everything to a collection of 
> > CC change. Then it sends the CC collection to the BCR. It is magic ! 
> > All lights show the current value.
> > 
> > Note: the decoding of the DrumStation sysex message wasn't the easy 
> > part without any available document from Novation...
> > 
> > As you can see there is a good new and bad one: the good news is that 
> > there is a way to set current values of the BCR, the bad new is you 
> > have to develop your own software to do it !
> >
>